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Just a little tip for all you stiff upper lip british runners: They don,t have milk for the tea at any of the checkpoints!!! . So if like me you operate on milky tea then take some milk powder with you. Somehow the offer of lemon juice for a queasy stomach just don,t work for me.
Apart from that the catering is fine.
Hi all. Thought I'd look in as I'm in the TDS this year. After getting in UTMB last year, but calling it quits at Arnuva - my second 100 DNF of the year - I liked the idea of a shorter, ableit more technical, challenge.
Training ok so far, getting distance up, but not many big hill days yet, I'm sure these will be key as it was my walking pace uphill and effect of the descents last year that got me. I'm trying to target more events where pace and walk/run balance will be similar. which is the UK means lake district fell runs really. I can't be out there most weeks, so I'll make do with reps and undulating courses on my local East Yorks Wolds and a few Yorkshire ultra's through spring.
Anybody else for TDS?
DEOT - I'm in too
Training for me is every coupla weeks getting in a longer hiller runs 18-25m and then shorter stuff back to back with hills and lots of ascent - I've got London inbetween which has thrown a spanner in the works as need a bit more road stuff (Which I'm not so interested in)....... But like you I'm going to target some steeper stuff closer to the time. Thought the welsh 1000's might be a good one to plan in 5 peaks lots of good ascent to climb..... You got any other northern gems that might be worth a bash? Osmotherly maybe?
DEOT - Also what were the main learning curves following 2 DNF's at the 100????
Hi Prue, which event are you in for? Welsh 1000's sounds ideal training. I've also got a marathon, Hull, in early April, like you I'm not altogether focused on that, but entered it as it was the first time (for a long time) my home city has hosted a marathon. I'm more focused on the trails really;
10/03 - Wuthering Hike 32 - not done before, heard good things
17/03 - Hardmoors 55 - follows parts of osmotherley phoenix route, but takes in more climbs
08/04 - Hull Mara
14/04 - Calderdale Hike 36 - Route change this year, but usually a winner
28/04 - The Woldsman 50 - First time I've done
05/05 - Pendle Cloughs 14m/4100' (fell)
28/07 - Lakeland 50 - Hilly, key training event
11/08 - Long Tour of Bradwell 34 - trail again, but hillier than previous events barring lakeland 50
i'd recoomend all the above, which i've done and osmotherley, which I'm unable to do this year.
I'll probably try and get some more Fell in there, still not fully planned beyond April. Some of these trail ultra's are undulating and very runnable - but good for time on feet. Fell, I think will be key due to long steep climbs forcing me to walk more and long, tough descents, building strength and endurance. My own area is very limited for hills, even doing lots of hill reps I doubt I could do enough and I'd probably go bonkers.
My DNFs were Lakeland 100 and UTMB last year. I'd completed the Lakeland 100 - just - the previous year so maybe was ill-prepared mentally the next year. I started faster, tagging along with a friend,and started to fade a bit after 40 or so miles, I just felt I was out of energy and by 50m was pretty certain I'd give up at the next major CP at Dalemain (59m). I probably just started too fast, I could have probably gone on - I felt fine running Long Tour of Bradwell a week later - and finished at a slower pace, but decided to save myself for UTMB a month later.
UTMB was different, I didn't knowingly start too fast, but delay in start time till evening and two poor nights sleep before hit me at the end of the first night and I struggled on first major descent. I was also getting some knee and ankle pain on descents especially. I slowed down and felt better during day, but was a bit close to cut off pace. in the evening I caught toe on a tree route and overstretched sore ankle painfully. At the start of night 2 I started to fall asleep as I ran/walked and was slow. I got to Arnuva (coincedantally also 59m) with maybe 15mins on the cutoff, but decided not to go on with being tired, nauseous, in some pain and the climb of Grand Col du Ferret looming.
So, I decided on a 100m embargo this year and the TDS sounded an excellent challenge to try that wasn't so long. More training miles in the hills is my target this year, even if at the expense of a few miles overall. Also, run at my own pace, I seem to do better this way as just before I DNF'd these 100's last year I did the Wolds way, 79m, overnight and unsupported. Supposedly my longest training run, but ended up as my longest run all year.
I did the TDS last year. All I can say is be prepared! Its shorter than UTMB, and it's ONE NIGHT ONLY.. but mile for mile it's harder I would say, technically and more ascent. Last year we did almost 120km due to a weather detour. Trail is rougher, less travelled and wilder, but it's a fantastic race. Look out for Col de Tricolet near the finish. Thats some ascent. Vertical almost, I think belaying would be the sensible way to go! Cross the water from Bossons Glacier, down into Les Houches and sprint to the finish. Wonderful. Enjoy!
Cheers Mark, I'll bare that ascent in my thinking, hopefully I can restrain myself enough to give my self an easy ride to have something left at the end.
Bit of a science or personal opinion question (also asked on a TDS thread by me). Any thoughts from those who've maybe done more than one of the UTMB/CCC/TDS events on if its worth getting there more than two days early to aclimatise a bit to the height, heat, etc....? E.g. get a bit used to being up at 1000m generally in Chamonix and pop up and down the mountains in cable cars to get used to higher heights?
I arrived last in Cham last year the evening before, so in theory should have been in town less than 24hours before UTMB started, had the start not been delayed. I certainly seemed to suffer on second climb to Col du Bonhomme; headache, a bit clumsy, suprisingly sleepy. Generally very hard work - which I expected for such a big climb, but I wondered at the time if altitude (over 2400m) was causing some of this? I've hardly ever spent any time at altitude, highest I'd been in a run/walk before was about 3000ft in Lakes and thats not often. oddly I was fine on the next climb to Col de la Seigne.
I was thinking of arriving Tuesday afternoon before TDS start on Thursday morning. But, I am also considering arriving a day earlier, if this had any perceived benefit? or maybe it'll just be another day to walk around adding to nerves? I'm interested in anyones opinions on approaches they've used and how it refelected on their event.
I'd get out there as early as possible, i had a problem in 2009 when arriving on the wed for UTMB on fri. Dont know exactly why but I am now putting it down to altitude because it started at St Gervais (13m) and continued until le Chapieux (31M). nausea, VOMITING, couldnt eat, drink didnt sort it out. Gradually strengthened after Le Seigne Pass after forcing salty soup and fluid, but if it hadnt been the UTMB, i dont know, maybe DNF? I went thru hell.!
My advice would be to get out there asap, then get up higher, and really hydrate for at least the day before.
Good luck. I'll be there this year too..
Mark
I posted earlier in this thread a couple of months ago that I would like to do this. I did a very hilly marathon on Saturday and has got my interest going BUT listening to the stories I am not sure lol
Cheers mark777, you did very well to get through that! Enjoy Chamonix and the event, maybe see you there.
spen71, Having done part of the UTMB last year I can vouch these are massive climbs and thats what got me. I'd certainly recommend doing a similar or longer distance event in big UK hills - Lakeland 100 for UTMB or Lakeland 50 for the CCC as an intermediary step.
If I were to do this again I would have gone for the CCC last year rather than straight into the UTMB. But I had confidence from finishing Lakeland 100 in 2010 and was convinced another years training would see me good enough. Unfortuantely I was carrying not completley sorted leg injuries, which came back to bite during the event after less than 20m.
Accomodation booked now, roll on August!!
Hi all, I am running the CCC this year (first time). Am getting out to Cham on Wednesday afternoon. By the looks of it, I need to get up a cable car ASAP. Thursday morning could be spent walking as high as possible I think. I had not been overly worried about the altitude but I am reading more a more reports about people struggling on the early climbs. I wonder if it isn't just nervous tension a bit though?
I do all my running/walking without poles and have done some monster days in the Highlands etc before with no real leg fail, but I am going to get some poles as everybody seems to say they are necessary. I know 98% have them for the UTMB but is that % so high for the CCC?
Hi Shane, I won't be polling for TDS, I'm sure they're useful and will make it easier overall. But I've never used over here on bigger climbs / longer events so I'm not going to start practicing now. So to balance out all the "you must have pole" arguments, here's my personal thoughts
The guy I travelled out with completed the UTMB without last year and I'm sure there were many others. There must be some learning/training curve for the arms (no matter how light they are), so you'd better start practicing soon if you are going to use them.
The way I see it, the legs aren't going to fail because you don't have poles, only because you've not prepared adequately for facing big ascents and descents without them. Ok, the climbs are quite a bit bigger in the alps than in nearly all UK peaks. But on a long day out in peak district, lake district, scottish or welsh mountains, you can probably match the "foot-per-mile" statistics if you plan your route, you might just need to fit in 2 or 3 times more climbs.
I had a few days out in lakes recently recceing a stage of the Bob graham round (11m + 6m lower ground to make an out and back) and then supporting somebody on two other stages consecutively (25m). Each stage racked up "at least" 125% of the climb and descent of TDS/UTMB/CCC - foot-per-mile. I figure days like this are great prep, so your highland days will be doing you well.
An easy way to see if something is necssary is to look at what the fastest handful of people are doing... they wont be carrying a single thing that is not necessary.
Thanks both, some useful thoughts. I know the elite runners don't use them but then they are running/living in the mountains. Maybe though, our Wales/Lakes/Scotland days are tough enough training for us and we don't need poles...
Re kit generally, I understand and agree with nearly all of the mandatory kit, what I am struggling with is just how radically different the weather can be at that time of year. You need one complete set of kit for the 85 degree scorcher and another for the torrential rain/snow storm that they've had for the last 2 years. I figure that if the weather is bad I will just be yomping it in full mountain gear.
I know the trails are well packed. So main question is: if it's really wet, do you need a more aggressive shoe (e.g. Salomon fellcross) or will a shoe with a more conservative grip still be OK? At the moment I am running in the S Lab Sense and was proposing to use these unless the view is that in bad weather the paths become some "gnarly" that a more aggressive shoe would be an option? I guess both sets will be going with me in any event!
Shane unless you're familiar with the area you'd be amazed by hos much the weather can change over such a short period of time and distance. I did the CCC last year which started in bright sunshine, temp in the twenties and cloudless skies, By the evening it was snowing over the highest passes then when we dropped into the valleys it turned into sleet and rain.I used every bit of kit I was carrying and was glad of it and when I do the UTMB next year I'll make absolutely sure I have the best kit available to me.
As for poles it's a personal choice but for me I don't think I'd have finished it if it wasn't for them. I think it was DE above who said it helped if you hadn't prepared adequately, not sure I agree totally with that but I see where he's coming from. The simple fact was that I hadn't prepared properly and they did help massively, when you're measuring your climbs in hours rather than feet then every little bit helps
Lirish - my comment on poles being a hindrance if not practiced with was just my gut thought on it, as I've never tried them and most changes take getting used to. I'm sure my skinny arms would tire in no time. Good to hear they actually don't take much getting used to, I may consider for future challenges (especially if I'm found wanting without them this year).
Shane - It rained for most of the first 7 hours (or so) of UTMB last year and had been before the start. Was slippy in places, but I didn't have issues in Roclite 295's, some people seemed to be slipping badly on first muddy descent, so I guess many were in less aggresively soled trail shoes. I think Roclites may be on the "grippy" end of the trailshoe spectrum, but not a fell shoe. Never tried Salomans so couldn't comment, but if the grip level is similar to a Roclite you should be fine. A fell shoe would be overboard IMHO.
Kilian may not use them but there have been plenty of top ten finishers who have .
You do need to practice with them until they become second nature, running with poles and getting a drink or gel etc is a skill .
Fell shoe definitely overboard, a decent trail shoe with some kind of protection is fine.
Adding to this blog has been on the 'To Do' list for too long, sorry.
I've got a place for the CCC this year. I've had advice from a CCC finisher last year and I've read the website and watched the YouTube videos. Reading the earlier comments and questions here are my suggestions in two parts; Kit and Altitude training. I welcome comment or feedback.
1. Kit.
Shoes. A respected running shop advised me as a general principle to go for brands made in the country of the event because the design is instinctively more likely to match the terrain e.g. in the UK many people go for Inov8s (I wore Roclite 315s for last year's L50), and for the CCC I've bought La Sportiva Raptors. I like the Raptors - good grip, they fit well (no blisters after 16+ hours) and plenty of toe protection.
Poles. I need them because when I'm tired I easily get disorientated and lose balance and in last year's L50 they were invaluable on the final descent to Coniston. I use the Raidlight lightweight concertina style poles and find them very good. The one unresolved issue is I want a good way to stow them on my waist so they are immediately to hand instead of having to reach behind to the sleeve on the back of the pack.
Pack. I'm planning to use my Raidlight 12L pack which was good for the L50. I could manage with a smaller pack but I like the flexibility of the front strap bottle pouches and the front pack. Even so, I've noticed the correlation between faster runners and smaller/lighter pack size. I think I'm just too cautious in my packing.
Hydration: I have used hydrosacs for years but have been continually frustrated at my clumsiness on refilling them at CPs. Recently I tried the Raidlight front strap bottle system and they work well, much faster to fill and easy to see how much drink is remaining, although I need to tape my chest to reduce chafing under the straps and also the pack chest strap needs to be under the middle elasticated strap to prevent the pouches from slipping too low.
Waterproofs. I've gone for the Montane Minimus jacket and pants. Far lighter and more compact than my old OMM Kamelika gear, but there's no warmth in them.
Warm second layer. My Rab fleece is a bit bulky and heavy at 245 g but I haven't found anything lighter, smaller but as warm advertised. Suggestions gratefully received.
2. Altitude.
My friend experienced mild altitude sickness with headaches and lethargy on the big climbs in last year's CCC. He hadn't considered the effects of altitude before he went. I asked a colleague who is a physiologist for advice and he recommended trying the Altitude Centre in Putney. I did so and for £99 I had a very useful session. Following a health check and consultation the assessment comprised me running on a treadmill at different speeds, firstly breathing normally and second time using a mask delivering reduced oxygen to simulate altitude. As I ran I could see how my HR rose and blood oxygen fell and could see the significant reduction in performance at altitude. Afterwards I had a headache but rapidly recovered. It was a very useful exercise to experience the effects which will help me recognise the symptoms in the event. I haven't gone for any of the extended altitude training options with equipment hire because I'm not in a category where I think it will be a significant factor. The principal benefits were experiencing the effects of altitude and the increased mental confidence that I will be able to cope. My colleague advised that I would need a few weeks in Chamonix before the event to acclimatise properly (and my long-suffering wife is definitely not going to tolerate that length of absence!), but he did think it was worth getting there a couple of days beforehand to settle physically and mentally and let the body adjust to different food and water.
I'm due to arrive in Chamonix on the morning of Wed 29 Aug, two days before the start.
I'm a CCC first timer and have been lurking for awhile... Some great advice here, greatfully taken on board...
Thanks for the info and thouights Pompey Mike and hello Slow Duck. I'm not CCC or UTMB, but TDS, but as there isn't much chatter on either thread and they all tackle similar or same big challenges I've been posting on here too.
I think I experianced similar "mild altitude sickness with headaches and lethargy" during UTMB last year, most pronounced on the steepest bit at the end of long climb up to Col de Bonhomme, first climb over 2000m. Didn't experiance the same on second climb, but I hadn't dropped that far between those climbs (1549m). For climbs after that I was in a generally degrading state so couldn't tell you whether I was feeling effects.
So maybe expect a hit on the first higher climb, but don't necessarily consider it something that'll get worse. Although I can't comment on your first big climb (might be new to the route this year?), as it didn't feature on UTMB route, its a biggee straight out the blocks much like the TDS.
Like you Mike I'll be arriving 2 days before my event on the Tuesday (all though closer to 1.5 as I have a 7am start time on Thursday). But with two nights sleep, this should be better than the day before like for UTMB.
Good point on shoes too, was very wet in early stages of UTMB last year (heavy storm overnight) and many people were having trouble descending the first quite muddy long descent. But thereafter its not what I would have called technical trail compared to say, many lake district paths/trods/etc... So a european shoe would make sense and they do tend to be more cushioned than inov8 roclites (although I know they're are exceptions).
I might well have considered a more cushioned shoe for UTMB if returning to, for more comfort on long descents, but TDS paths are meant to be a little wilder so hoping my roclite 285's will be fairly at home there. And there is certainly a degree of going with what you know and are used to - e.g. I saw a small number of people out on UTMB course in vibram fivefingers!
Poles - may well be a good idea, your in the minority without them in european events. But I'm remaining by my stance of using nothing more technical than a trail shoe. All personal choice.
I've settled on a 12l OMM pack, should be about right for my kit, the 10l OMM pack comes up just too small for me on the more demanding kitlists of long ultra. I could probably shop around and get more compact versions of some of my kit, but I'm pretty ok carrying what I've got.
Hydration - just bare in mind that the kitlist stipulates at least 1l of liquid to be carried. I've heard rumours that they do enforce at start. I use a two bottle system so was having to refill fully at each CP to make sure I left with 1l. So whilst bottles are my natural choice as I like two different liquids, like to know how much left and are usually easiest refill option. I can appreciate here how a big reservoir may be handy as you may be able to get away with not refilling at every CP - assuming its easy to refill (e.g. camelbak type) and even then you do usually have to take the pack off (which I like to keep to a minimum).
The minimus looks good, I'm pretty happy with my Kameleika smock though and I know it meets the strange requirements of the event after some research last year.
jacket with hood and made with a waterproof
(minimum
10,000 Schmerber) and breathable (RET lower than 13) membrane
(Gore-Tex or similar) which will withstand the bad weather
in the mountains.- long running trousers or leggings
I wouldn't worry too much as they don't seem to examine the garment in detail. Some of the jackets/smocks/covers on show looked far less substantial.
I think I had to take two layers as my baselayer wasn't considered enough for there 240g (size M) requirement. Not too worried about this as don't want to trade weight for warmth.
The Minimus isn't great in heavy rain (i.e. the sort of weather UTMB has has for the past two years...). I'm taking a Kameleika jacket over as well and will only use the Minimus if the weather forecast is good (and stable).