HADD training plan

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  • Brian - For me, you just hit the nail on the head, I'm finding the running very therapeutic. Having some really enjoyable runs, with the odd one where the HR readings are all over the place. I'm assuming the contacts are drying out and may end up trying some conductive gel if it keeps happening. On those runs, I just look at the graphs and guesstimate the average. Certainly not getting hung up over them, I don't feel like I'm working too hard when I'm out.

  • Phil, Sounds like a plan. Go easy with the squats and lunges.

    SRM, Yep side-effect of not working hard enoughimage Don't tell yer mates about the gel eitherimage

  • SLM - I think you are right about the wafty H/R readings, I have been experiencing the same of late.

    I think it's due to running at only 70% Max H/R and the colder weather and not generating enough sweat to keep good contact.

    Still can't bring myself to get the KY Jelly out though...!!  image

  • waht is hadds?
  • Distance running training using Heart Rate - http://www.electricblues.com/html/Hadd.doc

  • Another lurker sticks their h(e)add up...  I've read through the whole thread and thought it would help motivate me if I came out, so here goes.
    My reason for Hadding is similar to Joes, but obviously  I'm a lot slower. I got all my PB's in 2007 at age 39, HM 1:18, FM 2:48. 5k 16:53. After a disastrous Edinburgh Marathon in 2008, I completely lost motivation and have hardly run since. I've tried starting again many times, but get to about 25-30 mpw before overdoing it, getting minor injuries, getting depressed and eating/drinking too much before repeating thecycle. I've also put on 1.5 stone in the last 4 years and am now 13st. I know my problem is that I train too hard and keep looking back to previous training regimes where I could run 7:00mm miles easily and think I can do the same again. But knowing the problem is very different from actually fixing it.

    Which brings me to Hadd. I have 2 targets for next year - get VLM GFA time 3:15 at North Dorset Village Marathon and just get round Dartmoor Discovery. I may also do a couple of HM's, but without any targets in mind. I also do a Parkrun every month or so - not sure how that fits in with the regime.

    In the last 6 weeks I have been running approx 25-30mpw, mainly at 7:45 pace. i.e too quick especially since all the runs have been hilly. I havent yet measured my MHR (will do on Sat) so am assuming it is approx 178. This week I have started doing Hadd runs. I have done 1x90min (10 miles at 8:57) and 1x45min (5miles at 8:47), both at 131bpm, approx 75%.

    I have found doing the Hadds a revelation so far. It's a huge weight off my shoulder not to look at pace all the time. Previously, whatever I told myself at the start of a run, I would always end up thinking 'if I can do 1 mile at x:xx speed, I can get my average down from 8:xx to 7:xx' and I would always end up going too quick.

    What I have done is wear my Garmin on the other arm to normal and a seperate HRM on my normal arm. On the Garmin I only display average time and distance, not splits. So I naturally only look at the HRM and just use the Garmin to measure distance and for info at the end of the run. On an uphill Hadd mile I have been doing 9:40mm to maintain HR - there's no way I would have done that if I was using the Garmin.

    I'm not sure what the best plan is now. My marathon is in 21 weeks. I need to get to ~50mpw before starting proper Hadd base training, which I hope I can do by end Dec/mid Jan since running at 75% doesn't seem to take much out of me. That leaves 16 or 17 weeks to properly train. I'm not sure whether to do 8 weeks Hadd base traing and then 8 weeks more intense stuff, or do more (or only) Hadd base training. The Dartmoor Discovery is very hilly so I will have to do hills at some point (I live on the edge of Dartmoor so finding hills not a problem!)

    One question I have is, what does Hadd do after base training? In the past I have roughly followed P+D, would it be recommended to do this sort of training after a period of Hadd base training? Or should more intense training still be HR based?

     Anyway, I'm hoping that I can stick with it and contribute to the thread

  • I can't answer the previous question, except to say that you can use P&D, but go by HR- their long run pace is a74-84%, recovery < 76%, general aerobic 70-81% (of max hr), so all within the reasonaable  "up to 80%" part of the later HADD stuff- not so sure about the lactate threashold and VO2max runs though- might miss them out until just a few weeeks pre-race. This is roughly what I'm planning.....but I know nothing.
  • A stupid question maybe. If the majority of running to start with is 75%, does that mean 75% of maximum or of working heart rate?
  • Hi Everyone, been busy so not looked at this thread for about a week ! Done a could of long hadd runs , 90 mims and 110 mins. . So love the feeling that I could keep going with ease at the end of the run !

    Got the Bedford half Sunday, will aim to take it easy 1st half and do a quicker 2nd half . Will wear my HRM and report back .

    Good to see a few new faces giving it a go. Stick with it, I have only done it for 2 weeks but I feel good for slowing my pace down.

    Have a good weekend.

    FH
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭

    Laureate - I think you've made a brilliant start, you will do well at this marathon larkimage

    spenda - welcome to the thread.  I too am doing Dartmoor Discovery and North Dorset.   North Dorset is also my target race to get a GFA time, however I'm older and a different sex so my GFA goal is sub 4.15.

    I think your recent training problems are so common amongst runners, a combination of that instinctive competitive streak combined with impatience leads to yo yo training and a lot of stress.   But you've done the right thing, by stepping back and assessing your goals and planning the work.    You've also already discovered the beauty of Hadd training, that every run is not race, but another building block in place.

    Oops must dash...workimage

  • Brian, PhilPub... agree completely on the core stuff!!  Well worth sticking with for all round conditioning.  My Tuesday 'circuits session' this week was rather aptly called 'The Sweat Box'!  40 minutes of 30-rep exercises (squats, burpees, sits, lateral raises, etc, etc) broken up by running twice round the gym in between each set - nice!!   Fortunately, yesterday was an Italian National Holiday which meant no Thursday Circuit session - I got to play in the British 'Turkey Trot' golf compeititon instead.  Even better is that working on the HADD principle that a 90min run is better than 2x45min, I stayed on for a couple of beers afterwards and left my traners on the shelf - knowing that I could salve my conscience this afternoon... and it's another glorious day for a jog along the sea-front image.

    Hanno un grande fine settimana, gente!

  • Thanks Shades, I appreciate the compliment. image

  • Spenda, Welcome to the fred. Impressed with your pb's btw.
    My take on your build-up would be to do 6 weeks hadd 70% (building to 50mpw), 6 weeks incl 2x80% runs, then for the last 6 weeks moving to a more traditional schedule but with hills included.
    By traditional I mean P&D or Hal Higdon based, with your own tweaks to make it bearable.

    I think you could Hadd all the way to the marathon, adding some faster stuff (as Joe did), but it
    depends on what "floats yer boat". Good luck with the comeback. No reason why you can't pb again btw, my pb's came at 48 years young, and now I'm 50 I still believe I can pb at marathon.

    Sneglen, Hadd (and the others on here) all quote % of max.

    Funny Hat, Good luck with HM. Look forward to your stats.

    Laureate, E lo stesso per voi!

  • Brian. I pretty much new that re heart rates, it was a vague attempt to add a few beats and go a bit quicker !!

    Well it's been a fantastic week. Just to be out there again is good. Gone from run/walking to learning how to go even slower and am now "running" the whole time. It's all terribly slow, but I've actually gone out 5 times this week (2 followed by a 4hr shopping trip) and no ill effects on the foot and ankle.

    Could someone advise me with the heart rates. During the week I have either slowed down or walked when the heartrate has gone over say 146. 75% of max is about 142. Those runs produced an average of 138/9. Today I went by feel and never looked at the monitor. Average 143 which I was chuffed with but max was 161 and most of the run seemed to be in the high 140's. Should that be slowed down or is the final average the figure to be using.

    Hope that all makes sense. Thanks very much.
  • Thanks for the comments
    Shades- I guess I'll be seeing you next year. I know what to expect from the DD, but not sure how hilly NDVM is. It looks ok on course profile, but I'm not sure how much to adjust pace to account for hills.
    Brian - thanks, but I feel like a completely different person now ! My long term goal is to do VLM 2013 cos I'll be a V45. If I can get a GFA next spring, I will have time for full on Hadding next Autumn in preparation for 2013. I think your plan looks about right, but I need to be disciplined to do 6 weeks of 70%.
    By traditional, I mean P+D style. I've done this in the past, but from a much higher starting level than I am at now.
    I'm impressed and encouraged that your PBs came at 48.
  • Good to see the thread still powering on and some new Hadders!

    I'm back into some gentle running after my cold-induced layoff.  The cold ended-up on my chest which extended the break to just over 3 weeks.

    A couple of easy runs this week have given me a bit of encouragement.  Easy running still feel nice and easy...its just that the heart rate at which I am doing them is a fair bit above where I had got to pre-cold.

    So, nowhere near back to square one but some ground to make-up.

    I've kinda missed squeezing my tube over the last few weeks

  • Sneglen, thats a very good question. And I guess you may get different answers from different Hadders. I use HRav when running at the top end 80%+, and try and stick to max at the bottom end. So when I do 70mins at 80%, I ensure the average is 149-152 therefore rigidly sticking to 80% HRav. But when I womble, I tend to average lower than the 70%. Eg. today was a hilly road recovery run and I averaged 123 (66%), whereby most of the run would've been at about 130.

  • Thanks for that. I think I'll work out how to use the heart rate alarm on my watch and set the upper end for maybe 150, then I'll know to slow down a bit. Hopefully I'll spend less time too high and still have a good average. Will try it out on Sunday.
    Other than that I'm at a stage where I have speeded up just a small amount but enough that I would no longer be able to walk at that speed. Onwards and upwards.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭

    Sneglen - you're making good progress.   Good idea to set the alarm on your watch as if you let your HR go too much higher than target HR you lose more time/pace on your run than if you reined it in earlier before HR gets too high.

    Spenda - I wouldn't call North Dorset hilly, to me it is undulating but with no significant hills, certainly nothing of Discovery type.  Beautiful course, quiet country roads, one of my favourite marathons.

    Lamb chop - glad you're better and back training now.

  • Thanks Shades. I'm looking forward to getting back into the swing of things

  • I suppose my strategy with HR is slightly different because my reasons for HADD'ing aren't entirely orthodox.  The main reason for me to keep the pace easy is not so much to develop the aerobic system as such, more a case of applying an objective limit to pace in general to ease my legs/muscles/joints back into running after injury.  So today, for example, I was quite happy to let my HR drift over 140 going up a steady hill, because the pace had dropped off anyway and I felt that the legs were working comfortably even if the heart and lungs were being very more slightly stretched.

    Converseley when I'm running downhill, rather than take advantage of the drop-off in HR by opening up the stride and increasing pace, I'm being careful to keep the stride easy to avoid putting too much stress on the legs, and this is possibly one of the reasons why my average HR is still quite low, cos it really does drop off even on a gentle downhill.

    Back into double figures - 10 miles this morning, HR 137/68%max, 7:48/m. Comfy.  image

  • Cracking stats Phil. You won't be long before your in pb shape again!!! Was that a flat road run?

  • Brian - I've been advised to stick to flat, even surfaces as much as possible whilst I'm building back up.  The only notable slope was the hill going up the middle of Greenwich Park but the rest of the run was mainly flat, mainly on tarmac.  (I head for the grass if it's not looking too lumpy.)

    Clearly my heart and lungs are in good nick at the moment. What I'm finding is that there are certain muscles in the legs which, unsurprisingly, aren't reached by cycling or anything that I do in the gym, but are being woken up again by running.  So I'm getting back from the run feeling fresh as a daisy but later on in the day or the next morning I've got (fairly gentle) DOMS in the lower calves and a little less in the quads.  So it's a nice feeling that the legs get more running shaped again.

  • Hi Lamb Chop, Glad you're back! Good luck with the training. Gentlee, gentlee.....
  • Thanks Brian gentlee it is for the time being

    I was due to have done my second mini-test by now but I think I'll defer to early Jan and focus on getting back up to speed (albeit a low speed)

    Cheers

  • FunnyHat, how was the Bedford HM?
  • After the end of 12 weeks of HADD training I took my 3rd test.  I won't post the detailed results as it will upset me to much.

    I was slower on every single  HR point  (110,120 etc) and therefore slower overall. In statistical terms I have gone backwards. In my 3 tests I have progressively taken longer every time. 

     The 110HR test has gone from 15:31 to 16:13

    The 150HR test has gone from 10:04 to 10:15.

    The oddity is that I feel much fitter, have got up to 13 mile training runs and in the first session I could not get my HR above 137 and yet I hit 160 today. I feel much fitter and do not regret the 12 weeks spent training but in real terms I have nothing to show for it.

    Make of that what you will.

  • Johnny look at the positives.... Running 13 mile training runs... HR up.... And feeling much fitter.....

    Untill you actually test yourself in a race, or a course you've done in the past, then reserve judgement... I've only been doing had six weeks, and have run three races during that time and have seen massive improvements, nothing in my initial speed, but in the stamia aspect.....

    I've read a lot of HADD stuff on various forums, and found this link below interesting. put together by one of John HADD Walsh's pupil's, written a few months ago after he died....

    http://can.milesplit.com/discussion/topics/90162/1

    Always look at the positives Johnny......

  • You sound like you should be managing an England sporting team Bluenose "we've got to focus on the positives" image

    I'm very glad you started this thread JB.  The main benefit for me has been that I've been able to increase weekly milage way beyond my previous threshold.  Sounds like you may also have benefitted in this regard.

    I kind of understand where you're coming from with the test results though.  If I do mini test 2 and come out as equivalent or worse I will be pretty bummed...but not for long.

    Maybe regroup and plough on for another test cycle?  Would be a pity to pack it in now and then wonder if you stopped prior to turning a corner.

    Good luck either way

  • JB, Sorry to hear that. I am surprised, but as you probably know there are a few factors that can
    affect you HR. Have you analysed these? Could it be a one-off?

    If not, then it obviously is not working the way it should for you. I would try another 6 weeks anyway because, as you say, you are feeling better and fitter. And I guess you have enjoyed the training which is the bottom line of course.

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