HADD training plan

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  • Guys, looking for some advice from the folks who offered it earlier in the thread (Dr Dan, Brian etc).

    Have been a lurker for some time but would really appreciate some help now.

    I find it impossible, even at virtually static pace (12:30 min mile) to keep heart rate at 75%. Can I reverse the theory and keep running at nearer 85% of MHR at the same pace UNTIL my HR comes down to 70% as I become fitter? (or do best results come from sticking to the 70% plan no matter how slow it makes you go?)

    Brief info: age 36, 6ft, 12.5st, MHR 191 (actual test...the 220 minus age has me at 184)...generally fit, was a swimmer for three years until taking up running three months ago for the first time. Normally run 10miles about five times a week. I like having targets - so after 8wks of pointless huffing I looked into theories etc.

    Hadd suits me, I have plenty of time to run.

    Yesterday's 11.5miles was PAINFULLY slow, almost walking, and HR was an average of 160 (doing 12min miles.) Aaaaaaargh

    smilies/sad_smiley.gif

    Today's 10miles was around 11:30 min miles and managed to keep HR to around 150 (but I was almost jogging on the spot at some points.) Between miles 8 and 10 I couldn't keep it below 160bpm.

    smilies/sad_smiley.gif



    Ideal world: my 70% would be 133bpm, 75% would be 143bpm (both impossible, unless I walk, which is a no go) and 80% would be 153bpm...

    Do I stick with the frustrating pace for however long it takes? If that is the answer, please say so. I have no problem sticking to it. Just worried that 12minute miles are not doing me any good. I have no problem running for 90mins or more (but then neither would anyone else at this pace!)

    Thanks Dr Dan or Brian - or anyone else who can help.

    Regards,

    Gus.

  • big gus, I wish I had a quid for every time I've heard your complant....

    My tuppence worth would be to stick at it. To run 5x10M @ 85% would be a recipe for disaster and would eventually wipe you out. Patience. I don't think I've ever had to give this advice before, but I think you may be doing too much. 5x10M @ 12m/m is 10 hours! I would cut that to 6-7 hours, by doing something like (in minutes):

    60-75-Rest-75-60-Rest-120

    Give it 6 weeks, then reassess. Good luck!

  • Thanks for replying, Brian. I'm not good with the resting thing... especially when my runs are so easy (slow!). I dont feel in the least bit tired or burnt out and shouldnt I be 'easy running' every day, anyway?

    Hadd says build up to 50miles per week. Your programme (thanks you for taking time to suggest one) would have me running barely 35miles.

    I suppose there's an argument that my MHR is wrong. Maybe a new field test should be done today. Saying that, if it is wrong, then - as its already a reasonably high number - surely its not going to be out by THAT much?

    Do you really think I should cut my miles? I'd barely feel like I was putting in any work. Thanks for the input.

    Gus.
  • Thats the beauty of Hadd, build miles without too much fatigue/lactic.

    50mpw is a good figure to aim at. The way i would do it with yourself, is to build extra sessions. You could hopefully add an extra day for running, and run on a 6 day cycle. You could replace a rest day with a 60min run, and increase your other runs by 10-15mins. The 2hr could build to 2.5hrs, and your week could become something like:

    75-90-60-75-90-Rest-150

    This is 9 hours running, and would amount to 45mpw. This would be a better strategy than doing 5x2hrs.

    And I'd wager that after 6 weeks, the pace would increase such that the weekly mileage would be more or less 50 anyway.

  • Once again thanks for all your help Brain.

    I have another question.   If I we cross train at 70% (ie bike and crosstrainer) will this help with the training for this plan etx.

  • Spen, I've not tried it myself, but I (virtually) know of more than 1 runner that has used cycling in building a very sound aerobic base. I'm not so sure it has the same effect on the running muscles, but i can't see why it wouldn't still build mitochondria (in the muscles used by the exercise).
  • L33 ,thahks for the advice it was more or less the way i was looking at it ,good to know i am thinking along the right lines.
  • Brian, I read a current cycling mag and in it there is a training program that mirrors the Hadd training , though designed for Cyclists. Can't remember the name of the mag, sorry

  • Could you find out please Roy
  • Spen71,

            I think it is Cycling plus March issue. if not try feb. I actualy read it sat in a tesco cafe it dosen't mention HADD, but it is.  I left the mag on the table, to tight to buy it, anyway I had read most of it .At the mo best I can do. Will try on sat to go back to the cafe and see if it's still there.

  • Brian, thanks for your input.

    In the last seven days I completed 50miles so thought I'd do a mini-test this afternoon. It's quite demoralising to be honest. I'll put the numbers up and don't really mind folk laughing at me... but for someone who thought he was heading in the right direction, its a bit of a reality check!

    140bpm, 18:24, 142(ave)

    150bpm, 17:36, 150(ave)

    160bpm, 15:18, 160(ave)

    170bpm, 13:57, 170(ave)

    180bpm, 13:03, 179(ave)

     image

    Stop sniggering at the back...

    Oh well...got to keep working hard I guess. I'll leave it 6wks before trying the test again and - hopefully - the numbers will be better. This is the first time I've completed 50miles in a week so perhaps six more weeks of reaching that total (slow, slow, running) will turn things around.

    Yours,

    Deflated Gus image

  • Gus you posted these earlier....

    Yesterday's 11.5miles was PAINFULLY slow, almost walking, and HR was an average of 160 (doing 12min miles.) Aaaaaaargh

    http://smilies/sad_smiley.gif

    Today's 10miles was around 11:30 min miles and managed to keep HR to around 150 (but I was almost jogging on the spot at some points.) Between miles 8 and 10 I couldn't keep it below 160bpm.

    Have you then gone out and done the 2400 test, if so, no wonder the results are what they are.... You should attempt the 2400 test, as you would a race, rested, energy levels boostered and injury free.....

    Otherwise you get shit results, and feel on a downer.... The 10mile at 11.30 pace, HR150, is a good start off base..... Use the 11.30 pace. HR150, for a few 60 to 75min run's, then as your body adapts the HR should come down....

  • Big gus - sharing your pain I've been through it image I was running (well plodding) out 12:40+ miles to keep my HR < 140 and it was killing me to go that slow and yes to  start with it did almost feel like I was running on the spot at times. You have to "believe" image after a couple of weeks I was averaging 12:00 which I thought was the absolute minimum speed I could cope with without doing me head in. I have been HADD'ing for 4 weeks and am now running at 11:38 avg but did a 7 miler at 10:45 and pulled a 10:08 out from somewhere. You just have to stick with it and think about the long term benefits of building such a strong aerobic base.
  • Gus, just read back on the thread. There are similar stories along the way.

    Patience.

  • Thanks chaps. I realise it's all about patience.

    (Brian, you have the knack of making the poster feel like you're patting them on the head and shooing them away image...I have read the entire thread but whilst it appears lots of posters tell their early stories of pain/frustration, they dont always tell us how they progressed or detail what their numbers are after 6months/12months (etc) of solid training).That's all!

    Obviously having reached 50miles per week I thought (wrongly) that I may be slightly fitter than it appears. Anyway, no problem, I'll keep working at it! Rome and all that...

    @Bluenose74 - Unfortunately, the test was performed on a fresh day! Not the day I had already run. But I appreciate your input. Maybe I'll scale back on the 10milers and just run for 75mins (as both you and Brian have suggested). Thanks for that.

    @SimonA - ahhh, that's the sort of thing that encourages folk. Thanks for taking the time to post. I am on a similar timescale to you, with similar results. This gives me the willpower to just allow the octogenarians to whizz past me without wanting to cry image

    Good luck to all you folks in the same boat.

    Gus

  • Apologies for my concise posts. I do not mean to come over as condescending.

    It's just that I have a full-time job and a life!!!!!

    If it's bo**ocks then just ignore it.

  • Brian,

    For my money, you just keep on doing what you do... exactly the way you do it - I appreciate your input (because I know it's for the right reasons) image

  • I agree with Laureate.   You have been very helpful to me and I appreciate it/.
  • Brian ,

    I think Big gus was just being friendly,and theres nothing wrong with that.

  • Laureate/Spen thnx guys.

    Roy, that's a strange way of being friendly.
  • Brian,

    it was just the way i read it.

    I also appreciate your help .

  • Gus reference this comment:

    I have read the entire thread but whilst it appears lots of posters tell their early stories of pain/frustration, they dont always tell us how they progressed or detail what their numbers are after 6months/12months (etc) of solid training).That's all!

    I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the posters give HADD training a couple of weeks then moved on... I've found the training requires commitment, patience and belief, and not instant results we all crave for.... I tend to waver every couple of weeks, but come back to HADD, as I seem to pick up less injuries...

    Good Luck with getting that HR down Gus....

  • Ok Roy cheers.

    Sometimes the written word can be misconstrued.

    Big Gus, hope you accept my apology. And that the training goes well. Have one on me....

    http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/34460/Gallery/beer.jpg

  • Top comment as always Bluenose
  • I do not know what I would have been like if my pace was so slow when I started.   I must have a decent aerobic base to start with if im 10 min/mils for 133 HR.

  • Cheers Brian.... Whats with the ice-cream????
  • Mmmmm - Carbs image
  • Ive now done just short of 4 weeks of easy running at about 72% HR.  Should I start to see some difference now?    Should I start again at <70% HR.  

  • Spen71 - I am no expert so can only share my experiences of my 5 weeks of HADD'ing, I started out running 12:48 Avg miles and the first week to 10 days were hell. After that I have seen a steady improvement in pace week on week and am now running 11:05 Avg. The improvements for me have come in steps and I can feel them coming on. Managed to run 8 miles today at 10:42 and put in a 09:51 mile at one point. I don't see that the odd 2% HR will really make that much difference - after your marathon effort I think you should take Brian's advice and take things easy in terms of mileage and pace for the next week or so. All my runs have been at < 140 HR which is around 70% of my HR Max.
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