Overdone it?

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  • Skinny lad, how's things?

    Ready for a new week?

  • Okay - went for a fell walk Saturday evening with family - good way of testing it gently as spend most of the time waiting for one of them - no reaction so went out for a 3 miler yesterday (threw in a couple of strides just to make me feel that I was testing it properly) and no real problems today.

    I say no real problems because its all back to how it was before last week ie my Achilles is not 100% but no real pain any more just aware that its there. Still stretching for Britain (or perhaps Team GB now?).

    I'm thinking give me a plan as if my Achilles is fine starting with an easy 6 tonight and if I breakdown on the 6 then we have a rethink. It may just be that the slog across the bay took more out of my legs than I realised - my calves do seem to have calmed down now.

    I haven't entered the 10k yet but will need to decide before end of this week. My concern is that it could cost me another key training week? Were you thinking I should go for as fast as possible or run it at HM pace as a Quality training run?

    Cheers

    Skinny

  • It does sound like that half took a lot out of you, but a half marathon is hard enough without dodgy terrain!

    A flat road 10k should be a different thing entirely, I'd see it as a flat out effort, see where you are, and it usually makes good sense to increase distance from a trial race to a target race. Always easier to add miles than add speed!

    Go for that easy 6 today then, and report back. I'll then work out where we are, as lastw eek was pretty disjointed.

  • Easy 6 last night in about 8:30/mile and it felt really easy! May have been because I was fresh I suppose but I have learnt something over last 6 weeks probably a combination of your good advice and the injury niggle.

    Other than the Quality session the other sessions are there to tell your body that it needs to be able to use the running muscles and probably for a long time. They are not for any other reason - do not run them at even slightly faster as that is a waste and risks not arriving at Quality day in the best condition. Quality day is all about getting speed into the muscles so that on race day I can use the speed and the stamina in the muscles to combine together to run a good race.

    Therefore even though I felt really good last night I kept my pace slow. Often in the past I would have run at closer to 8mins/mile last night just because I could - this would not have benefitted my pace or stamina and would have heightened the risk of not being recovered by my next run which would have increased the risk of a poor quality session or injury.

    Achilles is still a niggle but no worse - went to GP today and the practice have their own physio so he is making me an appointment with her probably for w/c 3/9 - this will confirm it is only a niggle and that all the stretching and icing I am doing is the right stuff - if she says total rest though she might be out of luck for a month!

    So I'm ready for rest of the weeks schedule - will be running Wed, Friday, Sunday.

    Cheers, Skinny

  • Good stuff mate.

    We have a  tricky balancing act I think, between giving you sessions to improve you, whilst thinking about the achilles.

    therefore, i think we can't push too hard for the Wednesday quality session.

    Therefore, I think the middle ground measure that was aborted last week makes sense, good mileage, but not too long at harder paces.

    So, wednesday, 10miles, with 3miles easy, 3miles steady, 3miles MP, 1mile cool down.

    If this goes well, along with the rest of the week, we'll get the intensity higher next week.

    Great news with the physio, that sounds a pretty good turnaround time.

  • Okay - I'll let you know Thursday - hope it does go well this week because I'm chomping at the bit to be honest - today is a rest day and I just want to get home and blast it - frustrating.image

  • 3 mile WU, then 7:29,7:29,7:29, 7:20, 7:16, 7:03, 1 mile WD.

    Coach - I could have done with you on a live feed this morning! Target run was 3 miles Steady, 3 miles MP pace. Ran first steady mile in MP pace (not deliberately - felt so easy) so had to decide whether to slow down to steady or hold at same pace with a view to increasing the session to 6 at MP pace - went for second option.

    At 3 mile point I still felt fantastic so decided to squeeze the second 3 mile stint gradually and see where it left me and how it felt. The last mile is a great mile to run as it is just off  flat but downwards so probably more like a flat HM pace.

    When I'd finished felt about right for medium quality - I could definitely have gone harder but that wasn't purpose of run.

    Now if I was my coach I would be saying what is the point of me telling you to run 3 miles at steady and 3 miles at MP pace and then you go and make up your own session on the hoof.  I think my response is that this weeks session you are restricted from what you really wanted me to do because you don't want to be responsible for frigging my Achilles - we have agreed only I can decide how that feels and how hard to push it. It has been feeling much better since the rest last week. I certainly don't want you to sack me or resign as I am working to your training framework.

    I am presuming that Friday is a 6 - 7 mile easy and Sunday is a 13 -14 mile LSR. Correct?

    Finally if I haven't already annoyed you enough image next week is our family holiday - we are staying in a cottage near Oxford. No problem with running while I am on holiday but will have an IT access problem so if you haven't sacked me could you give me the schedule for next week too and I promise I'll behave now we're back on track!

    Cheers, Skinny 

  • image I think that your whole post and understanding is spot on there mate.

    The lighter session prescribed was merely a tester to check you were ok injury wise, so you've done more along the lines of what we're looking for.

    Definitely 6m Friday, and upto 14 on sunday.

    I'll set next week's now, but obviously if you're feeling injured, ease down....and don't attempt a hard/long session. I've added a 5th run of the week just as a very slow recovery run after the quality...

    M    6miles easy
    W  10miles, 3miles easy, 45mins non stop alternating in 5min slots between MP and HMP, 1mile cool down
    Th  3mile recovery run, very slow...
    F   6miles easy
    S  13miles nice and easy

    The session on Wednesday is one that should be quite challenging, but I think you're capable. The trick is to make sure you get the MP sections bang on, as if you go too fast on those, you're entering a world of pain.....when you nail this session you'll know your fitness is pretty good.

    I've added a very short, very slow run Friday, for you to recover the legs....

     

  • Phew!image Glad you're still on board coach!

    I'm loving the new terminology as well - I'm guessing 'nice and easy' is the same as 'easy' but I have to do it with a smile on my face and say hello to everyone I run past!image

    Like the sound of Wednesday run - think time bound effort is a new variation we haven't tried yet; I'll get the kids to come with me on Thursday - that's their kind of pace!

    One final question - the week I am back I have now entered the 10k for the Wednesday night - if I run Monday morning will that be a 6 mile easy with strides?

    Cheers, Skinny

  • Let's try the approach I take with my racing. That's take the day 2 days before the race off, and run the day before with strides...

    Basically
    M   REST
    T    6mile easy with strides
    W evening     10k RACE

    It gives us the chance to experiment before the big race. Generally I find if I rest the day before a race, I feel sluggish instead. An easy run allows you to throw off the restless feeling.

    However, I do appreciate that I have a higher volume of mileage, so this may not work as well for you...we'll figure it out...and let's not set the schedule too far ahead.....

    We want yo achieve 2 things, you breaking the times you're capable of, but also staying in one piece!!

    ps nice and easy is I guess my way of saying, "you've done a hard session midweek, relax the long run a bit" image

     

  • Hi Skinny,

    Hopefully the week's training has gone to plan, and you've also managed to have  good holiday into the bargain too!

    Let me know how things lay when you read this...and we'll see how you're feeling for Wednesday

  • Hi Coach - back from hols - not as easy as I thought to get my training in - 5 people on holiday all have their own needs so without going into all the whys here's what I've done.

    Monday - 13 mile LSR 1:50 (should have been Sunday)

    Tuesday - 6 mile Easy

    Thursday - Quality session 10 miles incl 45 mins of 5 mins alternating MP HM pace - I exceeded this - ran it in 5 min faster then slower as required but seemed to manage to run all sessions inside required speed.

    Mile splits for 6 miles in Quality bit were 7:19, 7:11, 7:01, 6:59, 7:10, 7:05 and ran 6.31 miles in the 45 mins - my 10k was 44:37.

    4 mile walk and punting! on Friday rather than 3 mile super slow run.

    13.5 mile LSR today in 1:55.

    So 10k on Wednesday - what do you think I should be aiming for - sub 43:30? or even faster?

    Cheers

    Skinny

  • Welcome back.

    Good effort, you smashed the hard session! How did you feel after?

    In fact, it looks to have been pretty comfortable then!  That means that you're better than the time slots we currently have you on.

    I'd say sub 43:30 should be the minimum you can do. Give it your best effort, don't leave anything on the course, and let's see how you do.

    Either way it looks like we'll need to re-calculate your race paces after it!

  • Last couple of 5 min sessions I was having to push myself to hold the high pace but afterwards I was okay - was a bit worried as couldn't imagine holding this pace for another 7 miles but I know on race day it will somehow be easier?

    Will let you know how I get on Wednesday - whatever time I do it will be a PB as never run a 10k race before!

    Cheers, Skinny

  • It's hard to work out exactly what the paces per mile would have worked out at if you'd followed the 7.30 MP, and 7.10 HMP to the letter, but if you think roughly speaking that each 2mile section would have had a full mile at MP, and a full mile at HMP, that'd make it 14:40 per 2mile spell.

    (not entirely a perfect reading, as clearly you'd cover more than 1mile of the 2miles at HMP, due to it being a faster pace than MP..but it's the best we can do without loads of calculations!)

    Therefore, let's make it roughly 14.30 per 2mile section...

    You came out 14.30, 14.00,14.15, so as much as 30secs quicker than target pace!

    Therefore, you were definitely working very hard in the middle to end sections.

    On race day it will 100% be much easier.

    Put it this way, in training if I was told 4miles straight at Half marathon pace, i'd find that very hard. You've done 5miles comfortably at or above 7.10 pace in training on your own.

    To hit 1:34:59 you need 7.15 miling, and it looks like 7.10 will be your minimum target pace to go for.

    The 10k on Wednesday will give us another clue, but I see you as being nicely on course.

  • Morning coach - if I put 1:34 as a HM time into the Race Time calculator it gives me a 10k time of 42:38 - which is 6:49/mile - so all things being well on Wednesday I'll take that as my target starting pace and see how I feel after 3 miles.

    I'm going to have a max of 30 mins warm up time - thinking 10 mins stretches and 10 min slow jog with some strides?

     

  • We initially worked your 10k out as 6.52 so that sounds fairly spot on.

    Yes to the slow jog and strides, upto 2miles will be fine.

    Not so sure on the stretches. Top runners might do dynamic stretches, but I wouldn't recommend static stretches pre race at all. If anything they probably hamper performance.

  • Great thread guys,

    Some sound advice from Stevie G there Skinny.

    Good luck with your goals pal

  • Thanks YC - sometimes feels a bit self indulgent image but as well as the good advice its also been really motivational on those days when I just haven't felt like it. 

  • Thanks Young Cowboy, and if any other lurkers want to get involved feel free!

    Skinny, keep at it, you're doing nicely.

    I'm quite excited by your race Wednesday.

  • Stevie its made me realise il have too start paying more attention to my wee achilles niggle as well.First marathon in 4 weeks  and achilles is a bit tight,no pain at all from it but i need to pay more attention to it than i already do if i want too make the start line injury free.

    Good luck with your race on Wednesday Skinny,look forward to reading your report

     

  • It's a tricky area isn't it, being so thin, and having trouble getting blood flow until you get running.

    I remember it as my first real running niggle...certainly cut a few runs dead. Keeping the calf loose seemed to be the cure for me.

    Good luck with the marathon chap. I've done 20 halfs but certainly wouldn't fancy a marathon! What time are you after?

  • First mara Stevie im after a sub 4 mate,should be do able on the back off my half pb(1.49.06).Trainings going good although im a wee bit knackered after some of the long runs.

    After Loch Ness its going be half maras for the forseeable future,as im keen too see how far i can go with them as thats the distance i enjoy the most.I know theres a sub 1.40 in me somewhere next year

  • Not surprised, must have to do some 20-22milers, which must be mentally knackering as well.

    Have you been running for long, are you a vet who know's what's what with training? Or are you a relative newbie on an improvement curve?

  • running for almost 2 years now Stevie,weight had shot up to 16 stone a few years back so started back in the gym after a few years,then started running slowly and just took it from there.Now down to 11 st 10lb ,enjoy learning about training ,so you could say im on an improvement curve.Im finally realising that if done correctly then the training effect really does happen,compared to when i first started i was probably running all my runs too fast and not seeing much improvements.

    i take little snippets on board from a lot of people and  i know for a fact if i didnt listen to the advice i would be out doing daft things like trying to run all my long runs at MP,ive done a couple of 20s already in training and the first one nearly fried my brain ,then on Sunday ran the same distance and it felt a lot more comfortable.Best bit of advice i was given is stress+rest=adaption.

  • Not running every run medium hard was the best thing I ever learnt. Probably took until a couple of years ago as well, so I spent years doing what I fancied.

    Well, stick around pal, keep us up to speed with how the training and racing are going.

    I learnt from my own training thread that in attracting loads of similar standard runners, you end up with a better knowledge pool, and cameraderie.

    Skinny, don't worry old mucker, this thread will still be your training thread though...You're still the main man on here, whoever shows up image

  • The more the merrier!image Welcome aboard Cowboy - good to have another dodgy Achilles on the thread! My plan is to hammer the HM for another year before looking at doing a full marathon so interested in how you will get on over next few weeks and on the big day and what kind of total weekly miles you are having to put in.

    Coach, your thread's full of people talking about 5 minute something per mile so I find it hard to understand!image Dachs training runs make me feel like puking just reading them! (Yes - I'm an occasional lurker!)

    I have goals beyond 7th October too but one goal at a time! Perhaps my 10 year goal should be graduating to your thread!

    Update you Wed night/Thurs morning.

    Cheers, Skinny

  • Forgot to tell you about my physiotherapist appointment for this week - turned into a letter telling me how to book a physiotherapist appointment online - earliest appointment was 2nd October - 5 days before race day - didn't sound like a good idea if I'd got that far on my own so I've booked one for 12th which is week after - sounds like a lifetime away!!

  • Sure are some fasties on my thread Skinny, sometimes I feel pedestrian on that thread, and some of their training is far in excess of what I could see myself doing!

    Doesn't hurt to book a physio appointment for after a race day! If you smash the race you might need it image

    Let's see how the 10k and then half come out for starters. You might decide to sack me if things don't go as they should image

  • Am loving following this thread Skinny & Stevie - as another mid forties runner training to get close to that 1.30 HM (mine's the Reading in March next yr) this is all very encouraging and useful. Best of luck Skinny image Phil

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