Speed Endurance for 10k?

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  • That's per mile btw - so adjust for km...



    Anyone racing today? Smash it!!!
  • Aberdeen Baker Hughes 10k this morning for me.

    40:04

    14 seconds PB from last weekend.  Chuffed with that - would liked to have dipped under 40 mins, but the headwind in the last couple of kilometres killed that off - hard work at the end, but just couldn't push on enough.

    MOK HM next weekend.  Will be interesting to see how that goes off the back of 10k training.  PB is 97:33, so that will surely take a big dent.  McMillan says 89:19, but I've not really trained for HM this year, so will see how it pans out!

  • So close Calum. However the wind at the worst part if the race would have easily taken 4 seconds so hopefully next race in favourable conditions it works out for you!



    I'm sure, well, even hopingimage you should PB at the half - just go with a good pacing plan and even take first half slower than planned and see if you can push. Leather than trying to hold on!



    I'm buzzing to get racing! Local XC/multi terrain Wednesday and 5km Saturday
  • CC - I'm getting the feeling that you are just stringing out this sub-40 quest in order to keep the suspense going for a while longer!  40.18, 40.04.  I predict a 40.0.5 next.

    But if your 10k is down to 40 minutes you will surely smash your PB for the half, so long as you have done the distance in training.

     

  • GK - believe me, I was pushing like **** in that last 2k.  There was an incline right at the wrong point for me.  I knew the sub 40 was within my grasp - I'd timed everything pretty much bang on and started to push on.  Then we turned a corner and were running right into a bugger of a headwind, so it was hard work to just to maintain the pace.  We turned the next corner and we were running up a hill (probably the only hill on the entire course - not much of a hill, but with less than 1k to go, it's not a good place for a hill!!).  So, again, pushing hard, just to maintain pace, then I saw the 800m sign and couldn't do the maths, so just pushed hard, then I saw the 400m sign and thought "this is going to be close" - still running into the wind and pushing as hard as I could.  Just not quite enough to get under the 40.

    5 seconds over the course of a 10k isn't much, but really I was trying to lose that 5 seconds in the final 2k and I'd conserved enough energy to do so - it was just the headwind that ruined it.  If I'd known the headwind was going to be so bad there, I'd have ran a second quicker per km from about 3 to 8 and I'm sure I'd have been fine and dipped under 40 minutes, but I'm not that bothered about 5 seconds!!  I wouldn't have cared if I'd ran 39:59 versus 39:54 - it's more or less the same!

    The sub 40 is coming.  Next 10k road race is 8th June.  It's actually a bit less flat than the two I've just done, but it's where my pre-2014 PB was set last year, so hopefully it will happen there.

  • Howdy, my 8 week (or 2 x 4 week) 10k training starts today.

    First run of the plan is this evening, after work. I'm still torn about which is the best plan to follow though. I've got two in mind, both have 5 runs a week, including one intervals, one tempo, and one longer run, plus 2 gentle runs.

    The only real difference between the two is the format of the speed/interval sessions each week. Any suggestions or recommendations from you chaps about which would be better for someone like me, who's not really done much speed training before?

    The two alternatives, A and B, are listed below, A first, then B:

    week1: 8x400m OR 6x1Mile

    week2: 6x600m OR 10-12x400m

    week3: 5x800m OR 2Mile + 4x1Mile

    week4: 3x3x500m OR 5k Race

    week5: 10-12x400m OR 2M + 2M + 1M + 1M

    week6: 3x3x600m OR 20-24x200m

    week7: 12-15x400m OR 3x2M

    week8: 3x1200m OR 10K Race

     

  • another alternative i've seen is the Hal Higdon plan, where I start with 6x400m, and just keep adding another 400m rep each week, up to 12x400m.

    Can't decide which would be the most effective for me

  • CC- good luck for next 10km - you'll be fine !



    Agent - plan is looking good.



    I'll share my thoughts



    Firstly, I think working from at least 8 reps is better but focusing on the consistency with pace and I'd rather try being recoveries down each week than add reps - I did fluctuate between 12-8 nearing race day trying to run the smaller volume harder



    I work paces by volume



    so
  • Agent - Id be tempted to work with both plans - start with longer stuff first and build short work + speed into last few weeks (3-4)



    I did 3 different sessions a week as my build up before (well 4)



    10x 400s / 5x mile / 3x2 mile reps / 4mile tempo



    I found that built a good gap between getting speed into me and a solid endurance base...



    At the moment I'm doing a lot shorter volume sessions lately and feel my endurance has suffered a bit - that's the idea behind building a big base - something I don't and haven't done
  • AG - some of those either/ors are a bit stark.  For example, in week 1, you have the option of 8x400m = 3.2k total, not a particularly difficult session; OR 6 x 1 mile, total 9.6k (i.e. nearly the full race distance), and a bloody hard session if you are doing it at anything like race pace.   

    Which one is right for you depends on the wider context: things like recovery time and are you following Moraghan principles in terms of quality as a % of weekly mileage?  But in general if you are new to speed work then surely the right approach is to start off with the easier sessions and then build from there.  If you find it too easy, it's very simple to go again a couple of days later, adding reps or cutting recoveries.  But if you wear yourself out running 6 x 1600m right off the bat, that's the best part of a week down the pan while you get over it.

    Although this may not be very scientific, I think it's always sensible to focus on addressing areas of weakness.  As a marathon runner you have a good aerobic base but are not used to turning your legs over very fast.  So a few 400-800m interval sessions should definitely do you the power of good.  

  • AG - another thing to consider is what your body / legs will be used to as well.  I can't remember if you've done much if any pure speedwork yet?  I.e. if your first speed session is 400m intervals, that is going to be a lot quicker than what your body is used to running and could increase the risk of injury.

    I strained a calf muscle when I chucked in some 200m intervals at the end of a 1k interval session.  You may be better to work towards 400m intervals rather than go from marathon training and straight into them.  That said, if you run them at 5k pace or something, that would probably be okay.  (I'm no expert...!!!)

  • well, my first speed session was... umm... interesting.

    first mistake, i did it as part of my jog home from work on monday night. so along the busy pavements of central and south london. difficult to find stretches of 400m, let alone a mile, where your pace isn't governed by how much dodging round lamps, peds, traffic lights you need to do. Rookie error.

    second mistake, went for the 6x1mi plan. clearly i'm not up to that yet.

    third mistake, didn't factor in the heat, was about 25C on monday night, and I was knackered after the first "interval".

    the whole session ended up a bit of a damp squib. I did a mile, with the intention of sticking to my planned 10k pace (i.e. current pace minus a couple of seconds). With the heat and the obstructions, i struggled to maintain this pace and completed it in 7:40 which is about 25 seconds off my current 10k PB.

    Too knackered to consider 5 more of those i decided i'd do 800m reps instead. Did one of those, thought I might be able to go a bit quicker than 7:40, finished it exactly in 7:40 pace.

    then decided i'd do 400m reps instead. pace didn't improve, although i did do 5 x 400m reps. The recovery periods were determinted by the route i took home, i.e. i tried to do my intervals on the long, straight, uninterrupted bits, and recoveries on the busier sections that cross roads, etc. So, basically, it was all over the place.

    lesson learned.

    i'm going to do a tempo session this week, 15 mins warm up, 20-25 min tempo (comfortably hard, not trying to stick to a pre-determined pace) 10-15mins cool down jog. Next mon/tue i'll do intervals again but i'll cycle home first and do the intervals at the track round the corner from my house, which is what i should've done in the first place. we live and learn image

  • Agent G - don't worry about Monday, when it's that hot it's difficult to get any kind of quality work in. And you're right, try to think ahead regarding a route. If I'm doing quicker stuff on the roads I try to avoid junctions, drives and people!

    CC82 - thanks very much, I'm sure I could have got close to 36.5x except for the conditions! Saying that the wind was on my back as much as my face... If you don't hit the sub 40 in June I would suggest having a run of 5ks of half maras, sometimes a change in focus can result in better times for your goal distance 

  • Agent G - LSH got it right..



    Hardest thing for me around work was doing stuff into work or from work which wasn't ideal and hard..



    Now I cycle each way or drive (luckily only 2.5m) and have time to run without that hassle



    Some days it doesn't always work though image another day for training so just shrug it off.. I'm racing tonight, local RR10 series about 4-5 mile but top 10 is fierce competition and 3 guys who will run tonight all ran below 33:30 over a 10km on Sunday in the heat on an average course image yikes
  • Well, I would say "go to the track", which is what I usually do.  But I tried that yesterday, and was DE-NIED (as they used to say in Wayne's World) on account a school sports day, so had to improvise 400m-ish-ish repeats (no Garmin) on the playing fields next to the track.  So no plan is foolproof!   

     

     

  • thanks for the encouragement/tips.

    I'm doing a tempo run today. Plan is a 10-15min warmup, 30min @ tempo pace (according to VDOT that's 7:30, which is about 12sec/mile slower than my recent 10k PB) then 10min cooldown.

    I'll be running along the canal towpath near work at lunch, so should be much easier to dictate pace. Also, it's quite a bit cooler today image

  • I raced last night and faired ok..

    4.72 undulating XC miles at 5:42 pace - Main thing was achilles held up ok and no real stiffness today...

    Chatted to a local lad whose pretty handy who came 2ndimage

    http://www.thepowerof10.info/athletes/profile.aspx?athleteid=6096

    He wants me to be involved with their training group which 4 lads are all roughly that ability.. 

    I will share some stuff here as looks like a good group to hook up with indeed...

    One nasty session he quoted (which I've never heard of or considered - was this)

    12 x 400m - Progressive 

    6 x 400 at 5KM pace off 30 seconds (that was definite)

    4 x 400 at 3KM pace - not sure recovery maybe 1 minute

    2 x 400 at 1500m pace - not 100% on recovery maybe 2 minutes

    Speed + endurance in one....

     

    Good luck with the tempo AG

  • Raced track 5km today. First track race - didn't even have spikes image



    Slightly windy and tactical - 16:07 .. Not sure on splits as I'm away and don't have my cable but think I wound it up and ran slightly quicker each time..



    Focus now is 10km end of June and one mid July and will hopefully be back full training in 2 weeks so only 4 weeks but hope to get in reasonable shape



    Poor last 6 weeks training due to Achilles etc but seem to have held fitness ok.. Will update my thread too but come back here with any ideas sessions I get as I should be back training with the club when I get back rather than on my own..
  • Nice work.  

    21k for me today at 5m/km.  Felt pretty easy.  34 miles for the week, but didn't do great on the quality sessions: had to improvise 400-500m repeats in a field when track closed; and then woke up too late to do my planned tempo run on Thursday and had to restrict myself to 3.5km at race pace.  

    Have a general feeling that the mid-June race is going to come too early for me post-VLM, but let's see.  

  • A lot of races are going to be too close for me now including today



    Patience though as one race will fit in one day image



    Seems like you made the most of the day / conditions though and got a good run in
  • Much better intervals today, despite the wind and rain (which fair took me back to January).  9 x 800m at 3.45/km pace i.e. 3.00 per 800m, off 90s jog recoveries.  Hit them all at 2.55-2.58, feeling relatively comfortable.  Plan was to do 8 reps but felt good and added one more for luck.  

    I was about to go for 10 - but then I realised that would give me a set of Yasso 800s pointing towards a 3 hour marathon time!  Since I only managed a slightly disappointing 3.11 at VLM, I thought I would quit before I started getting delusions of grandeur.  

  • Did a good hill session today, 6 x 1min hills @ 6min mile average pace with jog down recovery. Cant wait for my 5k in 2 weeks now.

  • Mull of Kintyre HM on Sunday for me.  Came in 14th place (!) in 93:42.

    A near 4 minute PB.  Last year at the same race was my PB.  The 10k time suggests I'm capable of a good bit quicker than that time but I haven't really done any HM training and didnt taper at all this past week with two hard sessions Tuesday and Thursday (after 10k PB on Sunday!).

    Planned to run 6 miles @ 7:20, 3 miles @ 7:00, 4.1 miles @ 6:45.

    The first 6 miles were ridiculously easy and varied from about 7:10-7:20.  There's a section of beach which I realised was from about 5.5 - 7.5 miles so the first increase in pace was as I was running along the beach.  Managed to pull it up to 7:00 no problem right until I was to come back up off the beach.  Steep incline in ankle deep sand then hilly, grassy, bumpy terrain for another half mile or so.  Mile 7 came out at 7:25 and was the most tiring mile of the entire course!  Took a good half mile or so to get my breathing back to normal and mile 8 was also down a bit to about 7:05, but was back feeling good again by then and clocked mile 9 at 6:52.  That was when I was looking to up the pace to 6:45.  Managed that for 2 miles but when I saw the 11 mile marker my legs were really struggling and that mile was uphill with a bit of wind.  I was digging really deep at that point but it must have been a tough part as I went past 3 or 4 on that mile despite the pace dropping to over 7:00.  Got a second wind at the 12 mile marker and managed to push on for a 6:50 mile and the last bit was clocked at 6:19 so a good strong finish.

    Overall - very pleased with the PB and especially the placing - couldn't believe it when I found out I was 14th!  I didn't get overtaken all the way round and I ran down and overtook probably 20+ runners from about mile 2 onwards.

    Next up is the 10,000m track race on Friday.

  • Another good quality session for me today, 5k race getting closer now image

    Did 800m x 6 with 3 min recovery, averaged 2min50 sec per 800m.

    Feeling confident that I can beat my PB of 19:05 in the 5k race image

  • Cliff - Sounds like you're getting some good quality sessions in cliff: what's your overall mileage like at the moment. Is your race this weekend?

    CC82 - well done on the pb.  10k race, 2 x quality sessions and HM pb all in one week!

  • CC - congrats on the HM PB, 4 min is a big step up!  Sounds like it wasn't the fastest course either.  You need to get on a nice flat road and smash 90 minutes.

    Cliff, good luck in the 5k.  With those reps I would have thought you should easily go under 19 mins.  

    Good LT run for me today, 3k warm-up, 8k at LT (6.40/mile pace, held to it pretty well apart from a couple of quicker kms on a downhill section), 2.5k warm-down.  Feeling it a bit now, though!

  • So GK - are you on for the sub 40 in two weeks?

  • Lou Diamonds - Overall millage at the moment is around 33 miles per week, feel fitter now with every run, got a 8 mile long run on Sunday.

    Yea the race was suppose to be next week, they have changed the date now for some reason today, so the race now is on June 15th, gives me a bit more time to get ready for it i suppose.

    GK- Thanks, I hope your rite there, been close to that sub 19 a few times in the past, within a handful of seconds, hopefully this time it will be mission complete. Then I can start thinking about the sub 40 10k again image The joys of running lol

  • Marrows - it'll be touch and go.  So far my post-VLM schedule has been 2 weeks of recovery jogging, one week off to cure niggles, and 10k training for 3 (now almost 4) weeks.  Have done decent mileage in that time (c 35-40 mpw) but with relatively little time for post-VLM quality work, I reckon the BP race might come a tad early.  Problem is, work and family commitments mean I'll have very few other opportunities before my cut-off date, which is late July.  So will give it my best shot.  Inspired by your RP heroics, of course. 

    Have you got any short-distance goals this summer?

  • GK that doesn't sound too bad to me! Have you raced since London marathon? In answer to your question, no, distinctly unfocussed here.  I've entered this free 1 mile race, though, and you should too: www.cityoflondonmile.co.uk.  I also have places for RideLondon 100 (which I will probably do but not train for), and a couple of September half marathons.  Maybe the Monday night 5K series would be a good backside-booter for me over the summer.  But I don't want to be TOO focussed on anything because it displaces too much else from my head. It was OK for a few months pre marathon to be obsessed by it, but I can't afford a year-round handicap like that.

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