P + D training for VLM 2013



  • well in heOw - nice when it comes together particularly off a heavier week. You must be bouyed for Wrexham next weekimage - on that note they have fooked up my entry. It would appear I am not in, but as it is my club I would be somewhat disappointed if it wasnt sorted out! Will look at revising next weeks schedule for a mini taper once they confirm.

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    HeOw, thats good running - its great to see a steadily declining pace throughout the whole 20 miles.  

    Daft question for the old-hands at the VLM - but what time is the race start? And how long from the elites stating a x o'clock should I realistically expect to be crossing the start line?  It seems to be one of the few bits of info not shown on the web-site

    I'm looking to book my train tickets, so I don't want to book them too early in the afternoon for the journey home.  But don't really want to be hanging round central London for ages after the race.

  • Heow, impressive running there. I'd be pleased if my long runs were as fast. I'm a week behind you VLM guys (i'm training for manchester on 28 April) so have an 18mile LSR this weekend. Hope to take it at a nice, easy pace (~10-20% slower than goal pace). It'll be the longest I've run in almost 3 years. And given that I only did one 18mi run for my only other marathon in 2010, it'll be the joint second longest distance i've ever ran. Legs are feeling a little tired after this week, but so far holding together and i feel fitter than i've ever been image

  • Thanks Mennania - oh no, will they definitely sort you a place?  I have my race number thankfully.   

    Stutyr - thanks too, I was a bit worried about this run today as my 18 last week was so awful, it knocked my confidence.  I had 2 Tiger Beers last night too, I do tend to find that helps for some strange reason.  Plan was to just hit slower end of race pace and ramp up very slightly to faster end to see how I felt last mile.  I knew if I felt destroyed I would need to readjust my pace for now but I didn't, so hopefully I have got it right.

    Ginger - what time you aiming for at Manchester?  You will be fine on your 18.  My easy 18 last week was harder than my 20 with MRP today, all down to illness and weather.  Shows how just not being 100% and the weather could affect your race too.

    Literatin - BLOODY BRILLIANT TEMPO!  I am in awe, I have never ran a sub 7m/m - I could never imagine doing that many miles that fast!  and in Brooks Defyance too... Get yerself some light trainers, you will knock a few secs off that pace!  Honest! 

    NP - I was up at 6am but decided to tidy around and make beds etc first before I left. Respect to you getting out the door but quite a nice morning today here.  

    Does anyone listen to the Marathon Talk podcasts on their longer runs?  I really enjoy them and there was cracking interview with a student called Jocelyn Payne from back in October, she shared all her training which enabled her to get a 2:53 in Berlin, was really interesting.  Her tempo runs were nuts! 5 x 5k at faster than MRP with half mile jog recoveries in between.  I often wonder whether slightly longer than 7 mile tempos are a good idea for marathon.  She is coached by a brilliant guy from Leeds, can't remember his name but she is doing Manchester and aiming for 2:50.  


  • Hi guys, I've got loads of reading to catch up on! Hopefully over the weekend. Some good threshold runs being posted...well done Lit and Chris (off the top off my head). 

    My threshold miles form this morning: 6:30, 6:33, 6:28, 6:32, 6:29, 6:25. Over-egged it on HRR by the end, but I always do. Still not quite the pace I want to hit for sub3 performance but not a million miles off. And got an unofficial 10k PB today (40:12), having never actually done a 10k race.

    Kind of dreading the final 7M threshold run, which is scheduled 4 days before Silverstone HM so might have to reshuffle a couple of runs. Who else is down for Silverstone?

  • Stutyr - I think it's a 9:45 start...don't quote me.  I'm not sure how long it takes to get over the line as it depends on where you start.  I was in the green zone last time so not as many people.  However, I did get passed by the 9m/m pacer at about 14 miles so they can't have been too far behind in terms of crossing the line.  I was finished by 2pm  with a time of 4:09:23 if that helps at all.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    stutyr - VLM starts at 9.30 doesn't it? Actually fairly hard to find that information believe it or not. I also have to decide on what trains to book.

    Just back from my tempo run, LT splits were..6.15, 6.20, 6.19, 6.19, 6.23, 6.27. Going to punish myself for that last mile with a cold bath.

    HeOw - well done on your long run. All the training starting to pay off maybe? I listen to MarathonTalk and I do remember that interview.

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Thanks Fiona, thats just what I was after! image


  • Good running on the lts. 15w enjoy the bath - ouch.

    Al runs I ditch the heart rate monitor for the lt runs. It's only ever going to show too high for me, so I'd rather not know. Prefer to just go on pain level. Usually I just try to stick to a notch below agony. If I trained by heart rate I'd probably end up doing lt runs around 7.00 min pace, whereas just over 6 min pace is doable without killing myself. I think that's my general problem with hr training in that you don't truly push beyond what you are capable of. I may be some what of a sadist though.
  • Hope the LTs went well folks.
    Lit that is fantastic running well done girl !! it must be the little fairy light as a feather feet..you are right to feel smug
    AL runs ..you too well done on getting the LT done at a fast pace

    Ten I knew you were a chap..not that I have checked even though I am nurse..seems like the decision is made enjoy the 20 tomorrow
    As for the VLm start time I really dont think you will miss it somehow, like getting to the start line ...just follow 40,000 other runners


    Heow yes I always give a crap about splits and heart rate stats whether its mine or anyone elses I find it interesting guess that makes me sad lol..wow well done you that was a brilliant 20 miler you must be buzzing now , hope you have your running confidence back after such  a tough time health wise lately xximage

    here are my splits ruined by sodding head wind in final 6 miles, so couldn't get much below 9s I was blown all over the fricking place and at one point nearly ended up in the river !!!

    20 miles 3.02

    9.09..9.00..8.56...9.08...9.07..9.14..9.00 ..8.46..8.58..8.42..

    AVE HR 72.7 %


  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Chris - the problem with your method is you may be running at VO2 pace and not lactate threshold pace....

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    oooh. Liverpool marathon's been cancelled.

  • Possibly, but I would have thought that it would be pretty difficult to hold VO2 pace for 6 miles without absolutely ruining yourself. As an aside, I read an interesting piece by Steve Jones (still the UK's fastest marathon runner some 30 years later) who is now training athletes but doesnt use HR training as part of it. I personally tend to agree and think that it somewhat places an artificial limit on what paces you think you are capable of. Dont get me wrong, I certainly think it has its merits, but I think somethimes if you push beyond what is comfortable you are able to keep raising the ceiling.

    Its a real shame about Liverpool marathon. A couple of local well respected races have been cancelled this year that I know of as well. It seems that it is getting harder and harder to hold road races at the local level. Such a shame that agreement can't be reached to promote events that have such benefits. Madness.

  • Such a shame about Liverpool.  Gutted for Alan (not that I know him but yerno, he seems very passionate about it).

    Re HRM - I think they have their place but I also think you can rely too much on gadgets and sometimes running by feel is only way to go.  As long as you know that you need to run X run easy and X run hard, you would still reap benefits.  I mean, we had athletes before we had all this gadget shit.  When I did my run today, I kept Garmin hidden underneath my top and barely glanced at it, I am tending to find I need to run these long runs by feel as I can change so much week by week, tiredness, illness etc.  It worked well for me because I was pretty bang on what I wanted to do.  I would say the first few miles were a bit faster than I would run had I kept check on Garmin BUT that shows me I am probably finding my easy pace a lot easier.  No way could you run 6 miles at V02 pace!  Chris, I think only you can judge how you should train and it is on your head if you blow up BUT I would say work that aerobic base as much as possible as it is that which will carry you to the end of the race. 

    NN - cracking run.  You and I should train together... 

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I think LT pace is the pace you could race for an hour for - which is why they state should be somewhere between 15k and half marathon pace. I don't use HR at all in my training, mainly as I don't know my max or resting heart rate so no point...

    Yes, big shame about Liverpool. I ran the first one, which was also my first one, and despite the delayed start thought the route and support were great.

  • I always run by HR when running on my own, but ignore it when running with club, as the pace with them tend to be a bit erratic and fast towards the end,

    Just looking back 2 years ago before I started using HRM properly my long runs were averaging 78-80%  for 9.15 -9.30 pace, I had a terrible marathon, cant blame it solely on that though but HR has dropped big time this year after spending a few months last year being very patient and never running over 70% even if if meant 10.30 min miling  /walking / or falling asleep.. I now I am averaging 72-73% for 9 - 9,05 in miling and the long runs are feeling much easier even though a bit quicker

  • i'd happily swap LSR paces with you NN image

    I'm aiming for between 9:55 and 10:50 min miles for my 18 miler this weekend. Will try to find some softish ground to run on - hard to do when you live in Clapham. I could do 12 laps of the common I guess, but would probably go mad, and it's a little too close to home, so if i got bored might be too tempted to call it a day and go and have a pie and a pint.

    Heow, i'm aiming for 3:57:05 or below in Manchester in April. Recent 5k time of 24:21 suggests (according to mcmillan at least) that a sub4 is achieveable, but it doesn't leave much room for error, so I accept that if it's windy or hot on the day i'll probably miss it, but either way it'll be a PB on my 2010 Brighton marathon when i hobbled home in 5:08:22.

    I looked at my training logs for that marathon and it was erratic to say the least. My training consisted of lots of 5k runs in some weeks, followed by nothing for a couple of weeks. I managed about 3 runs over 14miles in the build up, and my longest was a very stop/start 18miles. I averaged 11miles a week in the 4 months leading up to that race. I should have realised I wasn't ready for it and delayed, but at the time I needed the distraction and something to look forward to, and I was happy afterwards that I'd completed it, and had a great day out.

    This time is slightly different. After "returning" to running last August I decided to take a decent stab at it for the first ever time, and logged about 30mpw slow running throughout autumn before starting this P&D plan. That regular mileage (slow by the standards of many on this forum, but a complete game-changer for me) put me in a reasonable shape to start this training, and I'm enjoying my runs now rather than seeing them as a means to an end.

    There is an end, however, and that's to try to take down my mate who'll be running Manchester, who has a PB of 3:57:06 and was adamant last summer that there was no chance I would beat his PB. We'll see.

  • 15 West, you didn't actually poo yourself, did you? 

  • Just ordered myslef a HRM, I am probably guilty of pushing the pace too quick sometimes, probably going to use it more so for my recovery runs as where I live its fairly hilly and I probably running the hills too hard.  Don't think i'll use it on LT runs.  I quite like the LT runs, I was running them every week leading up to starting P&D,   But if as me your looking at a sub 3 marathon, its never going to be easy, its not just a leisurely jog in the park, I expect it to be tough, I ran 16 the other week at 6:40, it was hard but with more conditioning and training, the way I feel now fitness wise, definately achievable.  

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭
    literatin wrote (see)

    15 West, you didn't actually poo yourself, did you?

     - haven't checked actually, maybe that's why my last mile was a little slower.

  • Nothing worse than the Gingerbread man following you home!

  • My watch shows heart rate reserve, which considering I have guesstimated my HR, is as much use as a chocolate teapot. I go by Max generally but at the mo, my HRM is all over the shop so it has been shelved.  I have learned to slow down naturally though,  it has taken 12 months of educating myself re marathons and running 2 to realise that though.   If you are someone who pushes most runs, using one is a no brainer as it really will make you realise how hard you are pushing. 

    Craig, I have had to give my beloved hills and trails a miss for now and made a decision that if I truly want to give Manchester a good shot, I need to concentrate on the road.  I will change back to trails after the marathon.  Hills don't bother me but the sandstone trail is brutal terrain this time of year and that adds so much more to my effort.  You will find you may have to seek flatter routes too, it can become burn out zone hitting hills all the time. 

    Agent - my 5k time was 22:07 in August and I did a 3:54:37 at Chester in October.  I would say that if you concentrate on working those long runs at the right pace (the paces you are saying sound perfect) and don't start too fast at Manchester, you have a good chance of beating your mate.  3:54 was really far slower than I was capable of in October, most people were a bit shocked I didn't get sub 3:50-3:45.  I have said before, it was lack of aerobic conditioning which hit me.  (as well as hips playing up). Running my long runs too fast meant I left the race on the road plus I did too many races in my taper period, I did a PB at HM 4 weeks before, I paced a friend at GNR average 8:35m/m (faster than MRP) 3 weeks before and did a 10k 2 weeks before.  I can see how the tune up races will help but I won't run a HM 4 weeks before again. Interfered with training too much.

  • Chris J77 wrote (see)

    Nothing worse than the Gingerbread man following you home!

    You have to leave him in a nearby field if the little bastard rears its ugly head...

  • I don't like to admit it, but that *may* have happened before now. Oh dear its evening time and the thread is descending again!

  • I don't think you can call yourself a proper runner until you've shat in the woods Chris. I think I may sell t-shirts which proudly proclaim "I'm a runner and I can shit, anytime, anyplace, anywhere". Also, you ain't a bonafider runner unless you've stashed many a jacket or gear in a bush. Then find it again weeks later, when you go to stash ANOTHER top and there's your expensive Mammut jacket that you had completely forgotten about...
  • I think I might have lowered the tone. Never happened to me, though, I hasten to add.

  • Oh, x-post with HeOw, who as well as calling me a twat, thinks I'm not a proper runner.

  • Yes Literatin - you go stand there in the twatty non shat in a field band of runners.
  • I had a wee behind a bush once. Does that count?

  • Have you pissed yourself during a tempo? (Saying that I've had three kids naturally, I don't know how I actually manage to keep my cervix intact whilst running a tempo).
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