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HADD Training Method
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Tell us how well you did, Nayan
I saw your result on one of the other threads and take a bow. Superb first marathon 
I never wear my HR monitor in races for the above reasons. Adrenaline and race day nerves can lead to a distorted picture. The last few marathons were run at the pace that I got on my final sub LT runs (between 80 and 83%). I also like to have a pace range rather than one set pace coz I've never managed metronomic splits
Yeah I'm still punching the air a bit Chickadee. 3:32 :12 in Manchester.
not the sub 3:30 I had targeted, a weak finish and on reflection I can see obvious things I didn't focus on enough but I'm well pleased.
i have a lot to thank HADDing and this thread for- helping me select a vaguely sensible debut goal pace, giving me a sense of why training plans look the way they do and being able to dial in to easy pace when I thought the wheels might come off.
Well done - Nayan... stalked your time on the Manchester thread.
Nayan - congrats
I run to time / pace when I'm racing rather than HR. I record HR in my stats and look at them after the race. By using pace I know if I'm on target and don't get too stressed by thinking 'blimey my HR is high' (sending it even higher
)
Well done - I remember doing Manchester mara about 30 years ago??!!! Long time ago anyway. Wobbled all over the road and ended up in St Johns ambulance tent in a blanket - all I could think about was I wanted my roast dinner
Yeah it was interesting data and made for a good max hr test but I don't think I'll be wearing a monitor for another race.
Thanks all
Yeah, I don't really understand the lack of correlation between pace and HR in a marathon compared with training ... it's something I have observed in the 3 marathons I've done to date. But, I guess, once you have worn a HRM in a marathon, then you know the HR you can sustain in a marathon ... it may not correlate with training but that's a different matter, so long as it correlates with racing.
I've made the mistake of ignoring HR and going with pace. In marathon 1, I ran the first half to pace - it came out at 82% maxHR - that was too hard and the wheels came off big time. In marathon 2 I kept to 80% for the first half, but pushed too hard from 15-20 (84-85% maxHR) and, yep, the wheels came off. In marathon 3, I set off at 77-78%, got to 80% by 10 and 81% by15M, and then 82-83% by 20. This really worked ... my mistake that time was to push on at 22M - I hit 85-86% for 2 miles and felt great. Then the wheels came off. So, this time I will try to make sure I keep a lid on about 83% until 24M+ when I can hopefully then let it rise to 86% (or whatever) by the end.
I feel much more confident basing my race on this strategy than on a preconceived idea of what my race MP is. Whatever pace falls out on the day, I will live with.
Nayan,well done! Terrific debut!!
I'm on the fence about the HR during racing. As DD says, having worn mine for 2 races, I know what I can take. I guess the question would be can I take more and therefore hemming myself in by sticking to a ceiling? I'm not very big on taking risks, so would be hard to throw caution to the wind. But Mace reported last year (at least I think he did) that he did not and was glad because he'd have slowed down (he ran a terrific race). So not sure...
Well, got 8M easy in Saturday (foot/blister held up) then did my 22M run Sunday (still in one piece). Ran the first 9 easy (mid60% effort)...10-13 at 74% (pace just under 8 m/m), 14-20 at 80% (pace about 7:10), then 2 miles to cool down. No big issues to report. Got a little tired in mile 18, but was mental as pushed on and finished strong. Wasn't wiped out for rest of day, so good training run overall. Was hoping the pace would be nearer 7, but will take it. Pretty consistent with the same type of run 3 weeks ago. A little DOMS today, but not much.
Andi/Roy????
To put it into perspective, I was going with a max HR of 183, which the marathon confirmed. I sustained 180-183 in my toughest KM and there was a spike at 185 at one point.
Anyway I had planned on 4:57/KM giving 155ish or about 84-85% for most of the race, yet I was around 165 for a lot of it. I new Id pushed boat out too far when it stayed over 180 and changed my plan pronto.
I think my next marathon target has to be similar chip time but to be able to do it more comfortably and finish stronger. If I can do that and go sub 3:30 so much the better.
Nayan - you planned 155 bpm since it was 84-85% maxHR (based on your maxHR being 183) but you ran much of the race at 165 bpm? And you actually managed to hit 183 bpm during the race? There's no way you'd hit maxHR anywhere in a marathon and it's very unlikely that you'd run most of it at 90%. I think it suggests that your maxHR is more like 200 bpm ... if so, then 165 bpm is 82-83% and you hit 90% in the toughest part of the race ... which would all make much more sense.
Whatever the numbers ... a great run!
Nayan, BIG congratulations on the race and time!
I, on the other hand don't come bearing good news
Everything was going well (although maybe a little fast) until mile 15 when an earlier stitch I got wouldn't budge for eleven point two eight miles.
Am gutted that something as simple as a stitch caused so much damage but now I'm pretty sure that and the fact I must have altered my gait contributed to painful hips/right glute and groin.
That said, it was still a personal best by over 13 minutes at 4:41:51 and the weather was atrocious with gusts up to 30mph in our faces on open roads in heavy rain (not the light stuff we all dream of in a marathon - this stuff hurt).
Splits (% is for the last mile so not a true average)
1-5 avg 9:49 @79%
6-10 avg 10:03 @77%
HM in 2:10:34
11-15 avg 10:09 @80%
16-20 avg 11:12 @76%
21-25 avg @69%
26-26.28 in 15:53 @72%
All the gore can be see here
So, onward and forward, I need to work on my core (badly) and have been searching cures/prevention of stitches. I really want to HADD for LN but not sure if I should do something different? Shall rest & recover for a couple of weeks then reassess where I am.
Andy - a PB is a PB
... the fact it was in tough conditions and that the race didn't go to plan just shows how much progress you've made!
It sounded like a really tough last 11M. Those first 15M looked pretty perfect based on HR ... you have a 4:25 in you already - it just needs a chance to show itself.
Andy, conditions were tough at Lochaber on Sunday, and I thought last year was bad, congrats on your new marathon PB
I managed to finish it in 3:50:59 avgHR 167(87%), a 12 minute PB and 38 minute improvement from last year, just goes to show what you can do with some consistent training in the right zones.
Dr dan. Looks odd doesnt it? I havent mastered the screen grab thing yet but heres' the data if you happend to be on garmin:
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/475415632
I'm 40 years old so I assume my max HR is well below 200. Ive been wracking my brain about it since this HRM strap has been quite consistent so far.
I certainly think first race nerves came into play but (I just realised) my strategically placed sticking plasters may have biased the numbers a bit!
Nayan,
I agree with Dan's assessment. I'm 40 as well and I've seen HR of 199 on my watch in the past, but never in a race. In my two marathons I think I got close to 190 at the very very end. But my HR ave is usually around mid160s (~83%) in that race. Throw the age formula out the door...HR is very individual. BTW, this is good news...you have more horses under the hood than you thought!
And as DD says, great race regardless of numbers!!
That HR trace looks completely normal ... it goes up gradually from 165 to 175 over the first 21-22 mi. Then after the climb at 35K, the HR maxed at 180ish and I guess things started getting tough after that - the pace slowed and the HR dropped. That all looks very familiar - the only thing that doesn't fit is what you believe your maxHR is.
What other race data do you have with HR records?
Dr Dan. yes around 35k I got concerned with rising HR, felt muscles complaining in new and interesting ways and decided to drop back to HADDing pace. As things calmed down I tried to speed up again - this worked a little but those twinges came more often and I grew fearful of a muscle pull.
I've messaged you with some recent long run data. Unfortunately the only other race I've done was a 3.5mile last year and I hadnt started with an HRM yet. My ideas on maxHR started out with the usual age related formulae but also from what I had noted during training, intervals etc. I'll have to re-evaluate if Ive miscalibrated.
VTrunner. I've had high readings before but typically just as crazy short-lived spikes at the beginning of a run. These days I find that a slow start and build up over 0.5-1km helps iron out those spikes and keep HR more in line with expectations.
Nayan - I see what you mean. Your training run HRs really do not match what you saw on the day!
15th March 20M at 8:05/m (i.e. your MP at Manchester) averaged at 157 and maxed at 166 ... whereas at Manchester the same pace resulted in an avHR of 165, rising to 175. Strange.
I figured there was something biased about it. Nevertheless, relative to wherever I started, it was clear on several counts that things weren't right at 35km so I had to do something.
I think the big reveal has been that being slightly too fast or slightly too slow:
1) Can give very skewed consequences, and likely manifest only later in the run
2) Is hard to detect by feel in the first 10k
On balance I think I could have gone for a marginally less punchy pace, and had a much more enjoyable run with more control all the way through. Rather than chase a PB I think thats my target for next time. I think I got away with it in Manchester, but it wasnt the 'right' way to do it.
A coach on one of the 'Asics Jouney' threads had said to run the first half by pace (assuming your pace is well chosen) and to go by feel in the rest. I think I see the point now.
Yep, unless you're very fortunate, I think you need to have run a marathon or two and experienced just how much those last miles can hurt if you over-do things early on. I guess the ideal is to run an even paced marathon where those last 2-3 miles hurt enough to tell you that you could not have run any faster. It's something of a cliche to say that 20M is the half way mark ... but it is so true.
Nayan super time for a first marathon !
Andi a 13 minute PB in tough conditions struggling with a stitch is a great result
Hi again to everyone else
: I'm back in the Hadd camp after a fairly unrewarding Spring assault on a quicker Half...
Cheers Teknik. Was it not your day?
Nayan, I PBd at 10k and Half (oddly not 5k), but given the huge amount of intervals and tempo's I was doing, it was a poor pay-off. I had hoped for sub 1:30 but I was miles away at 1:33:09. So I'm back on Hadd for the next 27 weeks - it's the key to a marathon, but I'm also testing if I can get a better Half time without all the speedwork...
Andi, so sorry! Somehow I missed your post earlier. That was tough luck...bummer for you that race day wasn't perfect. But as others have said, to still run a huge PB under such adversity is awesome! I'd hang my hat on that result gladly. Plus it makes for a great story!!
Tek, howdy. I wouldn't say 3 minutes off is miles away...you were close so congrats. And the PBs speak for themselves. Good luck with the return to HADD.
Today was not a good day for me. I went for therapy and got my toe worked over well. Then went out for a 14m MLR. About 5 miles in my outer calf on the left side started getting tight. progressively got worse each mile. The run itself was brilliant in terms of HR vs pace. A holy shit run. But my calf is not good now. Very tight. I hope I can work through as I'm only 7 weeks out now. Very, very nervous as this is a totally new injury so have no idea what is going on or how it may respond. Will try to get back to the PT this week.
Fingers crossed VTrunner. Best get it sorted sooner rather than later
Welcome back Tek!
VT
- is it just tight or injured? Take care of it.
6.6 wi 2 mi at MP yesterday (well, 7:27/m at 79% maxHR - don't expect that pace on the big day!) ... today will be 2 x 3.25M (runs to/from the garage where my car is currently being fixed).
Holy cow, errr calf, VT. Sorry to hear that. Could it be a secondary injury by subconsciously altering your gait to avoid toe pain? I hope it's short-lived.
Andi: Great, PB man. Well toughed out. Stitch can be horrendous! And over 11 miles of stitch is a killer. I've seen a lot of pros drop out due to stitch before ...
Welcome back, Tek. I'm back too after P&D nearly broke me. My back has still not recovered from the last speed session. It's better, but not 100%. I just hope it won't give up on me in Boston ... a Boston DNF is not something I'd like to expierence!
8 with 3@ MP today (7:29, 77%). If I could hold that, I'd be over the moon. But realistically my MP range is 7:30-7:40.
DD, I'm not sure about tight vs injured. It's much better today, but I can easily pinpoint the muscle that is either tight or injured. It is very sensitive/sore when I put pressure on it. I used my foam roller and it was pretty painful and couldn't quite get all the tightness out. But that and icing seems to have helped a lot already today. Got an appt for tomorrow to see the fizz so will stretch/ice/advil until then and see what she says. Trying hard not to freak out, but am going to do the right thing. Worst case I get shelved for a bit and then either still run (if short layoff) or pick another race this spring/summer or simply restart with a fall target. After all, I've pretty much just been hadding along anyway. My gut says I'll be OK for the planned race though...will report back when I know more.
Chick, hope your back recovers as the mileage drops. Seems that you are able to bounce back well lately. Considering you recovered several times during high mileage lately I think you should stand a great chance to get healthy during the taper.
Dan, almost there, eh? I'm nervous just thinking about your race. You can carry my good karma from across the pond on race day! Remember, you not only baked the cake, but frosted it as well this time. Can't wait to see what you do on the day.
Thanks VT!
Yeah, I'm getting very nervous now ... travelling to London tomorrow afternoon, so starting to get my stuff together for packing.
Can't do much more now. Weather looks good too. Just need to execute!
Number is 12,596 ... they'll be a tracker on the web site on the day (http://www.virginmoneylondonmarathon.com/).
Just wish I could watch the elite race at the same time ... it's going to be a cracker!
Nayan and Andi -
Congrats to you both.
Andi - looking at your stats you were rock steady up to 2.5 hrs. Then some wheels fell off with that stitch but you still PB'd, so take heart from that
Teknik - you know it makes sense
welcome home
Chick - fingers crossed - don't think I could go anywhere near P&D - did buy the book but HADD for me all this year
DrD - rooting for you
Is Brian doing it?
Me - plod,plod,plod,plod,plod.......rest
Seriously all going well - average pace @75% now about 15 secs off last years pre-accident pace, started my LSR's last weekend (which is still only 9 miles for me!) Looking forward to a nice easy summer