Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
HADD Training Method
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
I havent read P&D yet (I do plan to) but Im guessing there must be a lot of overalp between that and HADDing.
I saw a Fetch thread saying that hadd vs P&D differ on the pacing of threshold runs. Is that what it comes down to or is there more to it?
Nayan,
You've kind of got the idea. My current plan is HADD modeled upon the structure for long runs of the 55-70 mpw P&D. P&D has you running true lactate threshold runs (more like 83-87% range??). So for me instead of doing 160 on a subLT I'd be more in the 165-170 LT range. Those runs are during the week during the first half of the schedule. Then every 3rd wk or so you do a long run with a lot of MP miles (e.g. 18 miles with 14 at MP). Then for the last 8 wks or so, they drop the LT run and instead get you doing some interval stuff (x600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1600). It's pretty demanding and it hurt me last year (got ITBS).
For me lately, I'm having trouble trying to do two subLTs during the week (tu/Fri) coming off a 18-22M LR on Sunday. Hard to do that then pound 10 miles subLT on Tuesday.
The other P&D item is one run a week doing a set of 100M striders in the middle of an easy run.
I agree though that the paces they recommend for non-quality days are way to0 high (at least for me). The work stuff is good. Although the LT makes me nervous that as a FT guy, I'm leaving aerobic base on the road with those runs. Much prefer subLT for longer.
I need more speed stuff in general but will wait until next time around for that.
I guess I'll just stick with base building for now. I have a 3.5 miler in July to do a little speed work for just to mix things up a bit but otherwise building mileage and then an October marathon.
I have ordered the PD book but it remains to be seen what kind of plan I pick for october. No fixed ideas right now.
Still in France drinking wine, lots of it
Well my marathon went like this " I turned up and ran, period " in a time of 3.45.02 secs.
with a average HR of 77 % of Max. don't know what the hell happened.
Hope you all are training hard , and well done Andi on your PB
Roy - enjoy the recovery
Is that HR too low? Should it have been 81% - 83%? How did it feel? Some left in the tank?
Answer all these when you get back! Au revoir
5k at normal hadding pace. Legs still a bit heavy and HR about 10 bpm higher than it should be.
Guess marathon recovery takes a bit longer than I thought. Anyone have any advice on how long to wait post marathon before doing a 2400 test?
Nathan - you are right, recovery usually takes longer than you think. Lots of different variables unfortunately so no given time. Some people do a reverse taper over say 3 weeks but to be honest it could take longer. I wouldn't even think about a 2400 test until your stats are back to pre marathon pace / HR and stable for about 3 weeks.
reverse taper it is then!
Not being one to follow 'process' according to my 'plan' I should be doing my 4th HADD test today - 10 days after my Marathon!
I think it will be a good benchmark to check my current fitness before 6 weeks or so of base building again.
3 barefoot runs thus far covering 1.4 miles already. Interestingly (or worryingly) my AHR went up to 82% over half a mile yesterday at 12:45m/m.
DD, I saw your time so congrats and waiting for the write up about your day.
Been puzzling about this again. my normal weight is 71kg. However carb loading, race hydration marathon weight gain and a dozen gels on a belt meant I was running with a good 3 kilos. extra
Maybe that contributed to a higher than expected HR at target pace since I hadnt hit that kind of pace away from a treadmill since the last 20 miler pre taper and injury.
I guess a proper max HR test will soon be in order, along with the 2400 test.
I take forever to recover after a marathon I and I think it gets worse the older I get
But I only ever did the 2400 test twice, so I'm probably not the right person to ask 
. 77% is very low though.
Roy: what was your target then? 3:45 sounds like a reasonably good time to me. It took me 3 attempts to get there
Going stir crazy with taper madness ... all my recent runs were pretty rubbish but that's par for the course I think.
Roy great time for a relaxed HR - enjoy the holiday
Nayan - I agree with Bede and Chick, recovery to pre-mara stats can take ages: In my case about 3 months (comparing average pace and average HR per month). So after an early April marathon, I wouldn't beat March stats until July or even August.
Andi good luck with the test !
Dr Dan hope you're ok fella
Chick not long now - when are you flying over?
VT hope the calf is holding up
I'm now back on Hadd properly. 40m last week with one mini sub LT at 80% lid ( 2 x 3.5m). 54m planned this week with 2 subLTs, again with a 80% ceiling, (first one 2 x 4m, the second 6m straight).
Chick, hang in there!!
Nayan, don't do it! You're going to get hurt. You should go for 4-5 weeks with only recovery run efforts. All easy. And sloooowly build back up. You are really vulnerable right now and you're body can't absorb any hard training in this state anyway. In addition to physical recovery, this time can also recharge your mental drive as you get ready to train for the next one.
Roy, I agree with Chick...seems like a good performance in time. We need more data! Race details please!!
Flying over on Good Friday. Need to start thinking about what to pack (and do a lot of washing ....)
im going to do pure 130-135bpm (ie about 70% max) whatever slow pace that means right now. Lowish volumes at least for this week and probably next too. Probably a good time to resurrect my swimming
Especially if it's the same location as your picture
Chick, as of today, the forecast is sunny with a hi of 55 and low of 41. Don't worry about the snow and other nasty we're getting...will all blow away by the time you fly. I live just a few hours north. Spring is sprung out here finally (although it's going to be 20 degrees in the AM!).
Hello Hadders ... I live!
Back from London... disappointing result but an experience all the same. A long blog is here:
http://www.fetcheveryone.com/blog-view.php?uid=23931
I can't open the link Dr. D (not a member of Fetch).
What happened? We were a bit worried coz your chip only came to life after the halfway point ...
VT: I can handle anything weather-wise so as long as it's not hot and by that I mean anyting in the high 50s or more
Chick - I've copied the blog the the MG thread.
http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/training/the-middle-ground/158114-1316.html
Dr D - loving it
.
Clearly the last section compared to Abingdon showed something amiss - HR dropped along with pace so my guess is with the fuel you mentioned you would have been OK. C'est la vie - at least you did it!! There are literally millions that couldn't
EVER!
Whoa, wot an epic report, Dr. D
I loved reading that. Shame you didn't get the time you deserve (and clearly have in you).
Have you ever thought about not racing to HR and go by feel? Because I think that's what has let you down. Your race HR WILL be higher. It's just like that for most of us. And if you check it ever so often and see numbers that freak you out your brain will make the connection: 81% HR is too much so it tells you to slow down. If you didn't know those numbers it could be different. Worth a try?
Chick - I actually went with the flow for the first 10K and actually ran at a pace that was sensible relative to my training MP. For example, the MP in my "20.4M with 15.3M at MP" came out at 7:33/m, with the HR going from 78%, 80% and 82% maxHR respectively for each 5.1M loop. So, starting the marathon with Mile 1 at 7:43/m and then 2-5M at 7:30/m (80.3 maxHR) wasn't crazy, especially as it contains the big downhill section. Given I then slowed and ran 15-20M at 8:08/m (80-82% maxHR) and still died at 20/21, suggests that continuing at 7:3x would have been total suicide ... and also that my HR is a good indicator of over-shooting. I'm sure a slower first 10K would have helped negate the later slow down.
However, I'm still not sure why I cannot seem to run at target MP on race day ... that subLT 11 days out where I did 7.4M at 7:01/m, 81.7% maxHR, also suggested I was in good aerobic shape.
Dr Dan - did your HR / pace resemble what youd seen in training or did you have the same sort of thing I did (HR higher on race day?)
Nayan - MP from training resulted in a higher HR on race day than it had in training ... last time I stuck with HR and ran at a slower pace ... this time I stuck with MP for 5-6 miles despite higher HR. The former worked better for me.
Interesting - I put my paces on an armband so at each mile I know where I should be time wise.I usually work these out from training runs and my desired target time (knowing that HR will be a little higher on race day). But then I'm only doing halves so probably easier to cope with some increased HR.
Dr Dan. The theory I'm toying with is that folks tend to weigh more on race day than they did during training and need to factor this plus race day nerves when relating pace to HR.
ie an extra 3 KG could cost you 5-10mins over 26.2 miles, or require an extra 5-10bpm for a given pace.
Dr Dan well done in London, I'm sorry it didn't quite work out to plan. My pet theory is it's the weather - we train for Spring in the cold and then it rapidly warms up in April. A hot day is going to knock your HR up versus training stats - I ended up with sunburn and a DNF in MK last year.
October marathons are usually the other way around - Frankfurt two years ago was 0C ! Having trained in the summer heat, my HR stats on that mara were about 10 beats lower than I had trained ! (Pity it was a heat wave last year...)
So if you stick with HR, you will run more slowly, and if you stick to pace, you'll suffer/fade/bonk in the heat. You can't win if it's hot.
I hear you Dr Dan. I've just spent the last 3 months flogging myself stupid with 2 lots of intervals a week (one short at 5k pace, one long at 10k pace) plus one long tempo, plus a marathon length LR. 60 miles a week in pursuit of a 4 minute PB at the Half. Result? 60 seconds PB. That sucks.
Last year I did (almost) pure Hadd and achieved a 9 minute PB at the same Half.
The comparison is not entirely fair as the 9 minute gain was off a soft old Half PB, but I have come to the following conclusions:
(1) I am FT and love intervals, but they are useless for me in mara training - in fact they didn't help much with the Half either.
(2) I've never really given "pure Hadd" a proper go - I have always drifted back to P&D at some point in the cycle.
(3) The intervals and tempos interrupted my aerobic conditioning - I ran my Half in March at a 3% higher HR but only 5 seconds a mile faster pace. I can take more pain now but that's a poor pay-off.
(4) So now I'm looking at a 25 week pure Hadd with no phase II. Jack the miles back up to 75 a week and do nothing faster than the subLTs. (Plural: Two a week).
I hope to find that, as an FT, I'll not only break 3:30 in October but break the 1:30 Half en route in September. But don't hold your breath...LOL