HADD Training Method

The original HADD thread is no longer showing up on the forumimage.

It's still there (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/training/hadd-training-plan/181933.html) but JohnnBike's inital message has gone (and his other posts) and I guess this is related to the thread's vanishing. I've pm'd JohnnyBike.

If we need a new place, then we can start here...

The main HADD links:








  • Dr Dan, a new thread with all your links above might be a good thing image I got to the old thread via a Search so maybe pop a note on the last page directing peeps here?

  • Andi, I guess we should continue on the original thread for now, in case the problem resolves. I can bump this message up for a few days ... at least the link to the HADD thread is in the first message, which saves seeking it out via the back door routes ... and also any new/curious Hadders can find it. If nothing changes, we can organise a switch-over.

  • I'm confused.com??image

    Have I missed something?

    New thread? Replaces old one - does everyone know?

  • Dr.Dan wrote (see)

    The original HADD thread is no longer showing up on the forumimage.

    It's still there (http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/training/hadd-training-plan/181933.html) but JohnnBike's inital message has gone (and his other posts) and I guess this is related to the thread's vanishing. I've pm'd JohnnyBike.

    If we need a new place, then we can start here...

    Dr.Dan wrote (see)

    I guess we should continue on the original thread for now, in case the problem resolves. ...

    ...  If nothing changes, we can organise a switch-over.


  • Realise this is a continuation of previous thread and hope its OK to jump in and ask some simple stuff (I shall get my coat). Just discovered all this and very, very interested. Recently got an HRM watch and would love to use it properly + Anything that means I can go faster in races by training slower sounds good now that I'm fast approaching my half century. I've read the original letsrun stuff and the basic logic makes sense but a lot of the technical stuff is going way over my head (miles over). Is there a simple short cut way of jumping in and assembling a training plan - is there a template online anywhere?
  • Hi Johnny and welcome aboard image

    As Dr.Dan says in the first post we seem to have 'lost' the original thread from the training forum but you can reach it here. That said, the other thread was quite large and we may start a new one if the issue doesn't get fixed.

    I'm a relative newbie to both running and HADDing and one thing I have learnt is that no, there is no simple short cut. Maybe pop into the orig thread and say hi, they are a great bunch and helped me a great deal. 

    Oh, and like you, running slower to run faster seems like the best way to do things.

  • Hi Andi. Thanks. Yes I found the original thread first but seeing as I'm a newbie thought I'd hop on the all new visible thread - especially as I'm rewinding a little in terms of accumulated knowledge.

    Does anything resembling a training plan that I can crib from and adjust exist anywhere? The distances, abilities and times in the original documents are way beyond my modest ambitions. I'm no "Joe".
  • lol Johnny, I'm no Joe either though have just been putting his HR into my spreadsheet to work out his HR%.

    I did make the mistook of HADDing using WHR% for about 3 months and things looked good before it was pointed out that I was running too fast and at too high a % of HRmax.

    Don't worry about speed, I'm slowly learning that and am slow (already well into my 50's btw so dont fret) but yes, there are some 'Joes' in the thread and all are happy to offer advice.

    How do you currently train? whats a typical week pace and mileage, HR  wise? When I started to try and run properly back in Feb I couldn't run more than 1-1.5 miles without a walk break and today I'm reasonably happy jogging for a couple of hours and only walking on the steeper inclines.

  • Ah-ha - care to share Joe's HR%s?

    I currently train following RW Virtual Trainer plans. It's worked for me in the past but this year I've been falling short - in training speedwork's been lacking and in races I've been well shy of PBs. This could all be aging of course plus a near constant battle with a variety of minor niggles but I'm ready to try a new approach - if I can figure it out! Currently running about 20-30 miles a week and training for two upcoming halfs - Nottingham at the end of this month and St Neots end of November. Not sure about next year yet but if I thought I could train using a less intense regime and still achieve reasonable finish time I'd probably go for a marathon.If possible I'd like to try this out for St Neots but not sure how to apply it into a plan (I love a training plan). If all this has been addressed on the original thread I'll dig down into that of course.
  • Johnny2323 - welcome.

    Have you downloaded the HADD doc (link is first one in Dr Dan's first post).?

    That will give you all the basics to start - have a read and any questions feel free to ask. Might not have all the answers but will give it a go.image

  • Hi BeDe thanks for replying. Yes I downloaded and read. Or rather attempted to read. All a bit to technical for me and I struggled to concentrate and pull from it what I really want (something easy I can follow and apply to me) but I take on the basic principal. A few very dumb questions:

    Putting together a Base Training Plan. I see Joe's HR there and HADDs suggestions for each day but how do I apply this to myself/Someone with a much lower MaxHR (181)?

    If I was going to apply this towards a race plan how would I go about progressing the schedule? What varients would I add (longer runs? intervals?)

    I understand the whole fast twitch / slow twitch thing but surely if I am training without employing any fast twitch at all when I come to race day my legs won't be able to take faster pace and I'll pull a muscle?

    What I'm worried about is so much slow running will make me a slow runner when it comes to races. How do you stop yourself just becoming slow full-stop?

    I like the basic principal I must say. I desperately want to carry on running as I get older and want to stay injury-free but really need the motivation of having a stab at my PBs.
  • Johnny - your'e welcome!

    I can only give my experience with HADD training to you. Each one of us will have a different outcome. I am 54 and started running again in 2010/11 after a 30yr break! I followed traditional TP's for a HM in 2012 - kept getting injured, put it down to my age (still thought I was 20!! - and still do!!image). Completed race and then got injured again when re-started training! Looked around for something different and found HADD and never looked back. I didn't really start properly until 2012. It seems to me you are starting at a higher level than I did - so to compare I was starting at around 15-18 miles a week and keeping everything below 75%MaxHR. It did take a long time before I saw any improvement in pace - 9 weeks by which time I was doing about 25 miles a week - still all at less than 75%. So a quick fix it is not, but the more time on your feet the quicker the results (as long as you don't overtrain). It wasn't until week 16 that I started really knocking off some decent time (for me) by which time I was completing about 28-30 miles a week with one run a week at subLT (below 80%). I was only out 4 times a week but tried to make them 'quality' runs at 60 mins+. If you have some PB targets coming soon in races already entered then forget about them, re-schedule for next year and get a decent base phase in for the next 3 months or so - can't really put a definitive time on it as you may make good progress depending on mileage, current level of fitness, etc. The biggest problem you WILL face is patience - if you can crack that then you will benefit from HADD training as I did. As most people on the thread know I was seriously injured earlier this year in a car accident so have been unable to train this summer - I am getting back into it now but it is the only style of training I would consider (at my age!! ha-haimage). I've tried to tell it like it is - there are far more experienced runners on this thread than me and all will try and help I'm sure.

    So to sum up - you can create your'e own plan but initially keep everything below 75% MaxHR or 5K pace plus 3 minutes whichever is more comfortable to start. If the 5K + 3min pace takes you above 75% then don't worry too much just don't do bulk mileage on it to start. Once the pace starts improving at 75% or the HR starts dropping at the 5K + 3min pace then you can re-assess but it won't happen next week or the week after - again in HADD's document he talks about minor changes every 3 weeks - but remember that was Joe doing a lot more miles.

    Hope it helps - I am NOT a trainer and not as experienced as some people on this thread so I hope others can either add or indeed disagree with what I have writtenimage

  • Good post BeDe, I agree completely.

    When I first started Hadding, my 75% runs were slower than 10:30mm, so I was happy when someone told me the 5k+3min rule.  14 months later my 75% runs are under 8:30mm - note, 14 months later.

    I haven't done any speed-work for over a year now, but I have PB'd at 1m/3k/5k/10k/HM and Mara.

    I run everyday, about 70mpw, including 2 subLTs at 80-83%, and I would (now) object to describing Hadd training as "slow running".imageimage

  • Hi Johnny

    I have just started HADDing and these guys have been really helpfull do I would stick around if I were you. As BeDe says, patience is the hardest part of this process for me. The other thing I am finding a bit diffiucult to get my head around is the fact that a run on one day can give you different results to the same run the next day i.e. you may run the same route at the same pace but your heart rate could differ by 5 or 6 bpm. I am slowly coming to terms with it and accept that, as BeDE says, it could take a few months for some consistent results.

  • Hi all

    Well I'm just back from an 11 mile - what I would previously call a LSR and should now maybe call a sub 75%HR - run. I did the exact same run a fortnight ago where I didn't worry about HR at all (looking back most of that run was 80%-90%HR) and today I ran 2 mins per mile slower. And today I still think I was going too fast really to be doing this HADD approach correctly - it wasn't so much sub75% as 75% average.

    @BeDe and Teknik

    Thanks so much for replying. Very interesting and very useful. Sorry to hear about the car crash BeDe, that must have been awful but I love your positivity.

    What I'm looking for is a system or style of training that will keep me running and racing injury-free and this feels like it could be the holy grail (if I can get my head round it).

    So... if I was looking at getting going with building a base from say 5 runs a week what would I be looking at. Do I mix things up slightly or just keep everything at sub75%. Is there any value at all in short 30 minute sessions? How would parkruns fit into a HADD plan? Sorry I'm asking questions again!

    @Teknik What HR% do you race at?

    Hi carterusm - I was working at the London Arena when Fruit Bat punched Pip Schofield, I was about three feet away when it happened.

    I think I can understand that 5-6bpm variation. Weather, diet, sleep and all sorts of other factors play a part in heart rate not just effort. The thing that has staggered me since buying a Polar Watch is how much HR goes up when I go up the slightest little incline.
  • Hi all,

    Hope you are all well.

    Well 3 weeks to go for the Loch Ness marathon all my training has been geared towards this race. No speed work just Hadding for the last 7/8 weeks, its a risk I know, but if it don't work will try a different approach next time.

    here is a sample week-

    Mon 7 miles sub 70% MHR

    Tues 12 miles  10 at 80-85% MHR

    Wed rest

    Thurs 12.5 miles at sub 70%

    Fri  12 miles 10 at 80-85%

    Sat 3 miles at 70-75%

    Sunday 20 miles at 73% ave MHR

    Give or take a few miles ave 65-68 per week

    Last 20 tomorrow, Hurrah.



  • Johnny I use the HR monitor only for marathon races - the beauty of Hadd is that it gives you a firm idea of what "MP" is (based on the subLT runs).  For shorter races I just go on feel / past stats / WAVA analysis.image  In terms of a plan, just do as much as you can with a 75% ceiling, i.e. slow down if you blip above it.  When the mileage starts to hurt, make one or two days a recovery of 3-4 miles at 70%max ceiling.  Parkruns are fine to break the boredom but there is a strong argument that any anaerobic activity retards your aerobic progression.  Once you get to 50 mpw for a few weeks, then add one subLT at 80%max.

    Roy that's an impressive weekly plan - have you pushed your subLTs up beyond 83% then?  Hope the last 20 went ok, and enjoy the taper madness.

    Fifth 20 miler for me, ran with a 75%max lid, and just about managed it on fairly even splits.image

  • Hi Teknik,

    ran 21 miles today ( planned 20) comfortably in 3.10 ave 73% MHR.

    I am able to hold pace/ HR at 136bpm (85%MHR) for 90 mins the plan is too x2 that ,and I will only know if I can do that on race day!!!

    How is your training going?

    your also doing LN I believe?

    Hi to you all

  • Good controlled long run Roy, and that's good news on the subLT front.  I've got 7 weeks left until Frankfurt, all going fine hereimage

  • Looking for a Euro marathon next year, let us know how it goes.

  • Roy, I did Frankfurt last year, and I'm going back as it was so great - pancake flat, fast, red carpet finish with disco lights and pom-pom girls, free beer and würst.image

  • Tek, I like the idea of free beer may have a look at that one too,

    Roy I'm also doing nessie hoping to get close to 4 hours I've been using P&D mixing it with hadd for the 70-75 runs and the 10 mile 80-83. Hope to get back to hadd for my base building before starting a plan for Lochaber.

  • Teknik,

    flat, fast, free beer sounds good, not sure about the rest tho.

    Stewart, did consider mixing training but went all out Hadding, hope you get your 4 hours, will soon see if we have done the right training.

    My race No is 460 please say hello


  • Hi All! image

    Busy but hopefully will be back posting in a few days. I've put a message on the old (invisible) thread to come here...


    Meanwhile, 16.3 miles today at 79% maxHR and 7:44/m. Shhhmoking! image

    To canal, 1.15 miles, 7:40/m
    1,7:46, 137 bmp
    2,7:30, 137 bmp
    3,7:29, 137 bmp
    4,7:36, 137 bmp
    5,7:52, 135 bmp
    6,7:34, 136 bmp
    7,7:49, 137 bmp
    8,7:52, 136 bmp
    9,7:37, 137 bmp
    10,7:56, 138 bmp
    11,7:49, 139 bmp
    12,7:43, 140 bmp
    13,7:42, 142 bmp
    14,7:53, 141 bmp 
    1.15 mile back up the hill to home, 8:02/m

  • DD super (and long) subLT - congratsimage zero drift in the first 10, then a tiny rise over the next 4m.  Nailed it.image

  • Frankfurt sounds great. Might go for that next year if this new approach does what I hope (keep me injury free and motivated).

    Just back from a 45min run, kept it to an average of 68%HR. Feel good.
  • Morning all.

    I ran Longshaw fell race on Saturday just to break things up a bit and ended up running 5.8 miles at an average pace of 10:52 and average HR of 158 which is 90% of my maximum.

    Back to HADDing today

  • DD - nice stats - keep em comin!!image

    Stewart & Roy - nice to see you on thread again

    Moving on to second phase of recovery now. Having completed 6 weeks at 69% - 73% I'm now moving on to run at my 5K + 3 min pace for the next 6 to 8 weeks. First run at 5 miles came out at 77% avHR so quite pleased with that. Also I enjoyed the fact that I wasn't 'tied' to a particular HR - I didn't look at my HR display and just kept it on pace all the way. It will be good to compare my HR for the same pace after this next phase.

  • Hi Folks, just back from 'that' London and need some rest. 3 days of drinking and eating might not be the best way to start taper lol.

    Stewart, Roy, taper time now and need to work out what I'm going to do. Race Number is 1117 and will be back in the 5 hour pen image Just booked in for the Pasta Party as well.

    I quite like the sound of Lochaber but will see how my first 'run' goes first lol

    Bede, good luck with phase two and good to see your still taking things steadily.

    Johnny, sorry it's a late reply - when I'm rested I'll see if I can convert 'Joes' BPM's to his HR.

    Off  for a snooze now and should nip out for a 5 miler later.


  • Bede - what do you mean by 'second phase of recovery' ? Are you now foucssing on pace rather than heart rate and see what heart rate you end up with ? Whar heart rate range would you be expecting to achieve ?

    Andi - I think that 3 days of eating and drinking is the perfect way to start your taper image

    Dr.Dan - that's a nice long run with conistent heart rates, well done indeed !

    Teknik - when is Frankfurt ? Where are you with your training ?

    Roy/Stewart - same questions with regards Loch Ness ?

    A lunchtime run for me of 4.2 miles @ 9:33 and average heart rate of 124. I included 2 x 1 miles with a mid-foot strike. All is going well but being the impatient person I am I am wondering when I can expect to see some improvement with my HADDing...

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