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HADD Training Method
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Futon - that's good to know!
Ran 7 miles this morning with a 10:45m/m average at 70-75%HR. One of the miles was 12mins!
I'm trying hard not to panic!
No need to panic. Sounds like a disciplined run acp.
However, I spotted your 5k pb in the sub-50 thread is 22:37.
What HADD suggests, is that you run at the easy HR suggested in the HADD document (which is ~70-75% MaxHR) unless your pace is slower than 5k + 3 mins
Since your pace is below that 5k + 3 min pace, I'd suggest the advice from HADD (on page 2) is worth a read: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=134124&page=0
Back from a long weekend in Snowdonia training over the mountains. The plans of men and mice !
High winds and rain which turned to sleet then snow the higher you went put a stop to any training for two days. Spent a lot of time drinking coffee and eating cakes over those days, eventually managed to run up Snowdon via the pyg track and down into Llanberis on Sunday . No Hadding because I left HRM home.
VT, the marathon is Mont saint Michel in France at the end of May.
Teknik, looking for 3.30 but have a few niggles that are not getting any better is knocking my confidence a bit.
Futon - yes, I had thought that maybe I should be using the 5k + 3 min pace! Thank you for confirming it for me!
I'll up the pace a bit on my next run. Do I just use this formula until my HR comes into line with the pace - if that makes sense?! And then go back to the 70-75% calculation?
acp - yes, agree. 5KP+3 is slow enough.
Moks - well done on the hill running. You deserve the cake!
futon - enjoy the 10K tuning up. Icing the cake is always good fun.
VT - good to hears you're getting back in shape.
Well, I managed 4 runs in 4 days without any big issues ... only 3.7 -5.3 mile runs but have to start somewhere.
acp - Yep, that's it exactly. You'd be following HADD's 5k+3 min pace advice until HR drops, once it's dropped you'll be in a position to go with the 70-75% calculation.
Dan - Nice work getting back into things.
DD, very promising. I started back the same way. Just small, sensible efforts to get slowly acclimate again. But last week's reintroduction to subLTs maybe wasn't so sensible. Plus running 6 consecutive days (normally only run 5 days per wwk). Maybe both things together = too much too soon. Went out yesterday in some considerable heat/humidity and hit the wall after 4th subLT mile. Woozily made my way home at easy pace. Combo of heat and probably just not being recovered. Took today off and think rest of week will be easy stuff and get back on the horse again next week.
Also cut my hair at clipper setting #1. My wife hates it, but damn does it feel nice!
Dr Dan - sounds like a good start.
Tried the 5k + 3 mins this morning. 5 miles done at average pace of 10:15m/m and average HR of 148 (77% of max) Found it hard to find 10:30 pace as my routes have alot of up and down. I live at the top of a hill and therefore always have to go downhill to start and then uphill at the end!
Sounds good to me acp.
VT- easy tiger! Nice work on the #1 though.
7th run in 7 days for me ... but only a total of 27-28 miles and all of it very easy. Today was the first day it felt easy. Onwards and upwards.
Oh, and I bought Hanson marathon method book.
VT - good to hear that the easy pace is back to where you were, pre-injury. Take care on those subLTs in the heat, but like the shaved head look
Futon that's good progress- when's your 10k?
acp keep plugging at it - the improvements come in lumps, so be patient
Moks that sounds like a good place to visit for a race. You've been posting some impressively low HRs for 8mm, so I'm confident you'll beat 3:30
DD that's great news, you're on the road back
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I've had a couple of low mojo weeks, but back on the horse this week. I did a 5m 85% subLT yesterday, and it came out as 6:58mm (HR was still rising each mile but starting to flatten out by the end).
I've got about 6 weeks left until my Half, and am beginning to feel better now - HR much lower than my March PB attempt at equivalent pace.
Looking good Tek!
acp - tell me about it!!
Thanks Tek, the first one is a week today, all signed up for a full series so I've got four goes.
Nice work on the subLT, impressive pace.
VT - Enjoy the #1.
DD - Good to hear you're hitting the groove now.
Easy 6 miles at 75% HR yesterday, just playing things safe now and tapering off over the next week.
Futon, can you remind what you have coming up?
Tek, nice pace. Is wonderful when you hit it and feel good doing it.
DD, that's a great sign. No fun when it all feels so hard. Saw you and Ramjet (?)talking biochem on the new thread (or at least threatening to go geek!). Nice
I've glanced at the Hanson stuff and honestly, it's got a lot of similarities to HADD. Also, per the nice discussion on the new P&D thread (Coach Jeff's take on the different plans), it seems some feel the focus on lots of MP pace miles is best. And that LRs lacking some ingredient of MP effort (whether it's true MP on fresh legs or doing a LR on very tired legs to simulate marathon effort, etc). I have to say the HADD approach really did the trick for me last time out but it took many cycles of it to actually have that result. Thanks to DD for pointing out that I should be doing MP chunks in my LRs as I really think that finished the cake last time out.
Did 7.5 yesterday and 13 today. Kept effort easy to moderate. Very hot out here at the moment (upper 80s). Feeling better energy wise but still having some lingering pain in right knee. Will see the Fizz next week. It's not getting worse, maybe better, but just hanging around.
VT haha yes Ramjet and I had a biochem discussion one time in the past, so he dug that up when I showed up in the new thread.
What I like about what I've read about the Hanson approach is that the first half (9 weeks) maps very nicely onto what I was doing when I finally broke the 40 min barrier for 10K, so I have a feeling it will suit me. It has a weekly speed session and a "tempo" session (misnamed as the pace looks like it will dial in at about 80% maxHR). The second half (7 weeks) is quite Hadd like with "tempo" sessions and "strength sessions", which look more like 83% maxHR to me at this stage. I usually struggle with managing 2 weekly subLTs in marathon training due to the long run, so Hanson's shorter long runs might well suit me. I also prefer having the speed work early and the strength after ... with P&D I felt the speed work at the end was compromising my aerobic fitness.
VT It's the Polaroid 10k series, if location helps the first one is in Helensburgh. I'll update the thread on how things go, I guess it's a bit different with most Hadd folks doing marathons.
Good luck in the heat, sounds tough.
DD, it's been a while since I looked at the plan. Did you buy the book or do you have a link? If you have a link can you share? I'm interested in looking again as I too could use some speedier stuff earlier and then shift focus for aerobic monster teeth. I could see HADDING, then transitioning to Hanson's at 16-18 wks out from marathon.
Another 8 miles this AM. Cooler (just) and legs felt wonderful. No pain in knees at all today. Hard to figure myself out sometimes.
Just submitted a manuscript DD, so nice feeling as you know. Another to go out in in 3-4 wks, then a grant July 5th. The cycle is as continuous as a road runners season!
Futon, good luck with it. As I'm in the States, the names don't mean much. I come here for the great UK slang (tasty, don't be shit, chuffed, and even whilst!)
Sorry for being AWOL. We were on hols in Central Europe (Austria, Hungary, Slovakia and Czech republic where I took part in the relays at the Prague marathon). That was great fun. I ran the final stage (12.2 k) and managed to take three scalps in the process
I like the new P&D thread and especially Westy's post comparing the various approaches. I thought about incorporating some sessions from the road racing book but the more I think about it the less convincing it seems to feel : |
I have a half marathon on June 21 but the big goal is a decent autumn marathon.
acp: like the others said patience is key. I find that improvements come every 6 to 8 weeks. I started from scratch in January when my 70% runs were about 10:20 pace. Today I ran 8:43 pace at 70% over 10 miles
Dr
VT I am the same, get up some days and have pains here there and every where, next day nothing, am sure it's all in my mind.
Chichsta
Congratulations on you 4th team placing,
What half are you running in June?
Slowest parkrun today ever at 68% MHR 109 bpm, = 9 min a mile
great fun
Hi Chick! Good to hear from you. Seems you have whipped yourself back into shape big time.
You must be happy with this. Nice racing regardless of pace as clearly the effort was there at 87% (impressive). Good luck as you build for the fall. Also, how is your heart valve doing as you regain your form? Seems you've not lost a step. Hope all is well.
Roy, I hear you. Nice effortless parkrun BTW
Got 12 and change in early this morning. Haven't broken down the stats, but saw ave HR was 68% so will take that. Ended up with about 48 on the week. Since I ditched the quality stuff Monday and morphed this into a step back week, not sure what to do next week (because the mileage was higher than recovery and I did to subLT Monday. Maybe just easy first half of week and add back the subLT Friday.
Chick, I noticed you mentioning how you do well by simply increasing overall running volume. A couple of folks on the sub3:15 thread (Badbark esp) say that they stagnated at a certain marathon time until they upped mileage north of 70 and then easily dropped a lot of time. I really would like to increase my overall mileage but am worried about injuries. Just having those "I'll just do it all" daydreams right now
.
DD interesting comparison - it does sound like an approach that would suit many of us
Futon enjoy the taper week
Chicksta nice tour of central/eastern Europe! The Prague relay sounded fun...
Moks nice easy 5k
VT I had my best year in 2013 when I went serious Hadd - over 70 miles per week. I PB'd at every distance (on one subLT and the rest 70-75%), including a 9 minute Half PB!
I think you can ramp up easily and safely if you:
(a) train closer to 70 than 75%
(b) stick to one subLT (maybe put another one in at the end of a long run, every 4 weeks, P&D style).
(c) cutback every 4th week, religiously
(d) absolutely no races until the last 4 weeks or so
(e) split the day into a double if you're not feeling great
Everything's gone a bit Pete Tong since I dropped the miles and increased the quality...
...oops forgot to say - 5k PB yesterday - 20:27: a mahoosive 2 seconds off my 2013 time
Teknik, would take a 2 sec PB any time, it's been 2 years since I've had one at PR, well done you.
Your list is spot on, I would add a second subLT run about 10 weeks out from target race, that's just my preference.
Chicksta - that's an impressive improvement! And well done on the relay result.
Ran 10 miles this morning with ave HR of 148 which is 76%. Weekly mileage was 31 miles.
VT - nice work with the paper - I need to get my end-of-year-marking done and then get a couple sent off. Oh, and we like your USisms
... fall marathon, striders, etc ... and extreme weather conditions. I bought the Hansons book but you can see the schedules here ... and you'll like the link 'cause it's got an cowgirl
(ok - a Canadian cowgirl but close enough.).
Chick ... great progress.
Moks - good pace controlled parkrun.
Tek - PB!!!
Nice 10 miler acp.
Well, having had no foot issues with my daily 3.3-5.3 mile runs, I did a 6.85 mile run on Saturday ... and my foot hurt again afterwards
. I did 3.7 mi on Sunday and it was okayish ... better than before I ran anyway. Marathon training is not looking likely unless this sorts itself ... I'm going to try to continue with short/easy runs as I really can't face taking months off.
Dan -I notice you run on consecutive days -is that wise with a niggle/injury? Your foot must be saying 'give me a f****** chance mate!'
DD, I've had some issues with PF off and on, but never had it progress like yours does. But with this type of injury, sometimes you can keep training, right. Maybe not quality stuff, but easy running? I've heard my PT say you can't tell if exercise will hurt or not sometimes. Very frustrating injury though and I know you're unfortunately well versed with this one. Good luck working through it. I would say it's encouraging that you strung together several pain free days so hopefully you've just round your upper limit for this week and that target will move as you heal.
Also, thanks for the Hanson plan links. Interesting structure and could see that working. Still seems like you'd want a strong base and LT before diving into though with the speeder short stuff. Will keep thinking about this.
Tek, thanks for laying that strategy out. It makes a lot of sense. I too struggle mostly to get those 2 subLTs plus LR each week, although last time around it was doable. But maybe as we get older 1 subLT would be a good balance. I seem to do better lately w/2 wks on and 1 cutback. Anyway, like you plan to get mileage up w/out breaking the bank. Also, congrats on the PB
.
SSLHP, how are things?
ACP, nice work on the 10 miler. Looking good.
Debated what to do today. It it was a rainy/cool day and legs felt really good in first mile (and HR was super low) so decided to go for a subLT. Went well as I cruised easily through 10 miles at 6:55 pace and HR was at about 78% or lower for first 8 miles...last 2 miles at 80-81%. Quads started to feel a little heavy in last 2 miles but cardio felt fine and was fairly fresh on 2 cool down miles. Will see how I respond the rest of the week, but happy with that.
VT I'm on the side lines too! PF in left foot which settled down so returned to running and had an innocent calf pull in other leg (7 marathons without and calf probs, then 1 mile into a 3 mile jog and ping!). that was 5 weeks ago but unfortunately it keeps pulling taking me back to square one- presumably because i'm not taking the rehab slow enough. Getting there now but will probably mean I'll have gone 3-4 months no running!
Great subLT VT.
Yep, sometimes with PF you can keep training. My approach was initially to completely rest (4 weeks of it!)... that didn't really work, so now I'm trying to run short, easy and regularly. The mistake was to run just under 7 miles on Saturday ... should have just very gradually edged up the distance.