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HADD Training Method
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Dr Dan - have you tried wearing a Strassburg sock?
acp ... I doubt I'd sleep well with one of those on!
Still doing 3-4 mile easy runs and 10-11 miles bike each day ... foot can feel stiff and aching at times but is bearable (and fine when running).
Dr Dan - it does take a bit of getting used to but it worked well for me when I had PF a couple of years ago and if I ever feel it coming back, a few nights wearing the sock again sorts it out.
7 miles this morning - HR Ave 75%, Ave pace 10:21m/m. Waiting for some blood test results and am kind of hoping they show low iron levels because even this pace feels ridiculously hard and I am so tired I keep having to nap!
Nice sub LT pace VT
acp: hope the bloods are conclusive. It could also still be marathon fatigue ... I usually struggle for about 6 to 8 weeks until my pace range becomes normal again.
Hamburg Half (my local one
) on June 21. I have unfinished business there. Last time I did it I was tripped up and had to pull out at 10k with a badly twisted ankle 
Strangely, the more I'm running (mind you, all my running is really controlled) the better I seem to feel. The days when I feel crap are those when I don't exercise. All in all the approach I'm using seems to do me good
. I much rather do 70 or 80 mile weeks than any sort of interval stuff. I'm building towards 70 miles at the moment. I struggle with sub LT running tough. Presumably because my body is still adjusting to higher mileage.
it felt much harder than the HR indicated though. Must have been down to really tired legs.
As for the mileage thing: that's music to my ears
My sub LTs are coming down though. Last week I managed 10 miles @ 8mm which I haven't been able to do in more than a year
Two sub LTs per week are hardcore. I've managed it occasionally in previous build-ups but the second one was usually crap. What I tend to do instead is make the 2nd one a progression run by heart rate. i. e. 70, 75 and 80%. It's gentler on the body but still a really good workout.
Moks how's the taper going - or is it just starting now?
Shoes I hope you can shake both those niggles soon - very frustrating...
VT that's a great low HR for sub-7, well done
DD sounds like short and easy is the way forward - does the PF play up on the bike?
Acp - wot chick said
Chick well done on the 10m subLT - I like the idea of that progressive run instead of a second subLT. Food for thought...
---
Bit of a disappointing subLT this week - slower than the previous week's treadmill effort, but I had a milestone moment this morning - 7m at 75% lid broke 8mm for the first time.
Chick, spent some time in Hamburg looking for a Job nearly 35 years ago now, lovely city. What are you aiming for ?
Teknik,have cut back a few marathon pace miles this week and no parkrun tomorrow, as I need to reduce mileage and am already in the mid 50.s.
Tek, nice going on breaking the 75% 8 m/m threshold! The subLT was probably a one off.
DD, hang in there. Seems like you've got a nice plan to progress and add fitness for lost running miles using the bike. I bet that sock could help you (even if it is as uncomfortable as it looks!).
ACP, maybe a combo of both? Agree with Chick though, takes a long time to get back after a marathon. Which is why I'm trying to limit them to 1 per year now.
SSLHP, sorry to hear about your string of unfortunate injuries. Dedicate to the PT and have patience. Hopefully you turn the corner soon.
So I've had a "shift" week. Had a great first subLT Mon, then did 10M easy Tue, 7 easy Wed, nailed a second subLT Thurs (7 m/m about the same HR), and did 5.5 easy miles today (and the HR ave was 128, which is 64% for me!). And when I dropped my car at the mechanic Wed, had to sit for a few minutes and had my HR monitor attached...looked down to see a resting HR of 39.
The other thing that has really changed is my cadence. Normally last year my easy runs were about 80-82 steps per leg/minute and subLT were about 85. Now my easy stuff is around 85-86 and my subLTs are 88-89. I really noticed the cadence on the subLTs this week. It feels like once I get a rhythm going, the miles just glide. I'm a bit nervous as last time my cadence did this I got my stress fracture. Knock wood I'll be OK this time around.
Also, I agree with Chick and Tek that the second subLT is generally hard to do. I really like this variation: 1 subLT is midweek and then you add in the subLT miles to the LR on the weekend (a minor variation to Chicks progressive run). Spaces them out a bit more. Chick, I've also added a sixth running day as usually I have done 5. Just 5 miles really easy and my body seems to have adapted to it now. This week I have 48 miles already and will likely go around 60 total. I figure when marathon training starts my 12-14 mile LRs will go to 16-22 milers and bring mileage closer to 70. I tend to be more of a 50-55 mpw guy, but think I'm ready for more this year. Also, glad to hear you are feeling better, particularly on exercise days!
Sorry for the long winded post
Chick - Good to see you back on form,
DD - Hang in there, hope the PF eases up,
Tek - nice PB
So I said I'd let you know how I got on in the 10k's... done the first one yesterday, got a PB in sub-50 time, nearly a minute quicker than previous 10k PB (which was on a flat-as-a-pancake course) so I'm well chuffed!
Felt good in the opening 3 miles, felt like I was holding back even but the first 5k would have actually been a pb which shows I was actually going far too quick, oops!
Started paying for it in the second half big time but managed to hold on and give myself a chance at the end.
With 400m to go, the finishing line in sight and 48 minutes something on the watch I had enough energy to mount a very late rally, somehow ended up doing the last 400m at close to interval pace! RIP legs, but it was worth it.
Still have another 3 to go over the coming weeks, more to come hopefully.
VT: great going there
Whoa, adding sub LT miles to a long run sounds tough. But thinking about it this could replace the P&D MP sesh. I think I'll give it a go when my base phase is done.
Excellent 75% running, Tek. I have a lot of work to do before I'll see such numbers, if ever
Moks: I'm hoping to get close to 1:36. That was the time I was chasing last time when I was so rudely interrupted by someone tripping me up in 2012
Hi all. Ive been back running for a couple of months now. Been lurking here but not posting as to tempt fate with the injury ravaged year i have had. Pace has been steadily dropping for a given heart rate. On thursday i went down the canal and did 5
Miles at 73% max hr. Boy was i suprised when it come out at 8.05 mm, really thought i had a big break through. Ran again Friday and today and the pace was back over 8.30 mm. Can a few degrees make that much difference? Or is it just a bedding in period for the new pace?
Nice to hear you are back running Spen
I would go with the weather making a difference speed / HR wise.
But don't let it bother you too much as the HR will come down in it's own time,
rest day today one of 3 spread out this week
Futon, agree with Chick, well paced! Looking forward to the hearing about the next one.
Chick, yes, good shifting down on your end too. Such a rewarding bit of feedback to see. I think you can do the LR w/subLT as you get into the second half of your marathon build. The key might be to get them comfy as straight subLT sessions at the beginning, then as you get that mastered (and get used to the longer weekend runs above 16 miles) you can handle mixing the two.
Logged 61 miles last week and had a really nice subLT today. It was hot w/high humidity (first qualify effort in heat + humidity) and was happy to have fared so well. Was sweating buckets though and can feel the effort now (several hours later). This weekend is the race I collapsed at last year. Looks like it will be even hotter/more humid this time around. Glad I'm not entered!
And forgot to say hi! to Spen! Glad to hear you are on the comeback trail. And I concur the weather can make all the difference.
Good running folks ... and welcome back spen.
I'm full of lurgy and cough
... and my foot is giving me grief again
. I think I may just pack up shop until July and start again.
Doctor has confirmed that I'm mildly anaemic, so this coupled with residual tiredness from the marathon could account for the 'running through treacle' feeling I've been having!
This wasn't helped this morning when some young, very bouncy female came sailing effortlessly past me and I watched her disappear into the distance while I plodded along in my lead boots!
All that being said, I am finding it easier to guage effort level without constantly having to look at my watch and the last few runs I've done have been coming out at ave 10:20m/m pace and HR ave of 75%. So I can see a very slight improvement!
Anyway bought a HRM and did a run out yesterday, had two days off so was all rested before first hadd session at 70% ended up doing 8.6miles in 63mins at 71%. It was a 30 min out and back but a bit drift on way back took a bit longer. Happy with the start though.
This is the moment when we all wish we had a t-shirt saying "I'm on a recovery run" or "This is my 20th mile"
. Mind you, the bounciness probably only lasted until she turned the next corner 
. Don't worry, it'll all come together in the end. Good to know that your suspicion of being anaemic was confirmed. Are you taking tablets or do they give you injections? I find that tablets take forever to produce a noticeable effect (I think I took mine for like 3 months or so before I felt normal again).
. 8.6 miles in 63 mins is good going at 71% 
Rest up and come back strong.
Welcome cybistrider
Good to see you back, spen.
Dr. D: Oh no
VT: That collapse must have been so scary. No wonder you're glad to give that race a miss this time around.
Chicksta - I take tablets which I'd already been doing but I was taking them with breakfast and dairy based products can interfere with iron absorption so I'm going to try taking them last thing at night to see if that makes a difference.
This is my fifth week of HADD training so I'm not really expecting to see any great improvement for a while yet but it would be nice if running 'easy' actually felt like 'easy'!
After much consideration I think I'll be doing a local marathon in September but wanted to get the maximum gains from HADD training. I've put together a plan which averages 45-50 miles a week and has one sub-LT run per week. All the rest of the running will be easy. Does this sound OK? My aim is simple (!) - to run a 10m/m marathon and prove to myself that I can hold a steady pace for the full 26.2 miles and finish feeling relatively strong. And get a time that's under 4hrs30! I have another 3 weeks before I would start this plan so no sub-LT runs before then. Am I trying to run too fast too soon?!
DD, bummer!
Hope the bug clears soon and that the foot heals too. What a persistent injury!
Hi Cybistrider! Yes, nice pace at 71%. I'm sure you'll see a good return on the HADD investment.
ACP, you mentioned wanting to feel comfortable on easy runs. I think this yells out that the HADD training will really work for you. Typically those in need of squeezing the toothpaste from the bottom are unintentionally guilty of running too fast most days and neglecting that bottom bit. As you progress, the easy runs will start to feel effortless. That's when this training business really gets good in my opinion. Stick with it. And hopefully the nighttime iron intake will help too.
I dissected my blister last night. Kids were in awe, wife was grossed out. Tender foot today so no running. Maybe tomorrow but I suspect might need that day too. I'm usually amazed though at how fast the skin on the foot can heal though.
acp, Picking a pace you would like to run is a mistake !!!! in my opinion, especially on your first marathon.
What would be better is look at a Heart Rate that you could sustain for x hours.
75% 80% 85% ? work out the different pace for each HR by trail and error and after a few months you will know or have an idea at least at what pace you can run your marathon, Or do the Hadd test, that will give you a good indicator
I am not a qualified coach and only have empirical knowledge, so feel free to ignore this advice.
I hope your anaemia is soon sorted.
Mokshaeight - I know what you're saying and I do agree with you but this won't be my first marathon and I just feel that with a half marathon PB of 1:52, a sub 4hr30 marathon shouldn't be beyond me! I think what has let me down in the past is my poor aerobic base which is why I'm doing the HADD training. If my HR is telling me something different then I will have to adjust my target pace accordingly. 10m/m is just a figure I believe I should be able to achieve - rightly or wrongly!
acp, your probably closer to 4 hours than 4.30 with your recent ? half mara time.
Anyway I wish you all the best.
Well i think the 8.15 pace for 73% max heart rate is here to stay. Last couple of runs have been pretty consistent. Apart from tonight. Went off road and boy did i struggle on the hills, but think i wilL ccontinue on the aerobic side of things for now and not go mad on the fells again.
acp: you can deffo go sub 4 with that HM time. I ran 4:07 off a 1:51 (my first marathon tearing off like an idiot and dying after 10 miles
) and 3:54 a few weeks later with more sensible pacing. You just need to work on your aerobic base and collect loads and loads of easy miles. HADD is perfect in that respect.
Spen: nice pace at 73%.
I managed my first sub LT run at sub 8mm for more than a year. Was on 7:55 pace at about 8 miles but then HR crept up a bit so I had to slow down as the wind picked up. Still, average pace in the end was 7:57 for bang on 80%. Well chuffed today
Thanks chicksta.
Everything tells me I should be able to go under 4 hrs but the tricky part is making it happen! Like you say, I'm hoping HADD will do the trick! Nice sub LT run by the way.
And have a lovely weekend away with hubby.
Chick! Nice one
The future looks good chick
6.5 miles tonight 1w/up 5 at 7.43min a mile .5 w/d at 126 bpm ave = 78% MHR.
Roy, looking good!
I just got back from a 13 w/10 at subLT. 6:5X ave and HR about 78% ave too on the fast miles. Hot out there and had to work harder on this one than the past few. Ready for a cut back week (Especially considering I took the past 2 days off due to a bad blister...was expecting to be very fresh but not the case).
VT, your nearly a min a mile for the same HR faster great running fella.
Chick / VT ... great subLT sessions!