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Corbyn may lose the Leadership eventually and if he does it won't be him that loses- it will be the nation. An opposition of the kind we saw from labour under milliband was not an alternative choice, it was a pretty poor impersonation act.
Ordinary people want less immigrants.
VDOT, I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree about Corbyn. I'm a Labour supporter, but it's a wasted vote where I am (South West), so in the 2010 general election I voted Lib Dem to keep the Tories out, and then was horrified when they jumped into bed with the Tories. I'm afraid I don't think I'll ever be able to vote Lib Dem again, and still can't vote Labour as like I say they have no chance here. I remember the day after election very clearly, as I think I was more angry then than I was after this referendum vote. I felt like I (and the country) had been properly shafted.
Anyway, I think Corbyn's politics are from an era that just doesn't exist now. I think there can be a credible left-leaning party with real alternatives to the Tories, but I'm afraid I don't think Corbyn can lead that party. I fall into the camp that think he has to go, and that he's doing more harm by hanging on. But I strongly agree that the country badly needs an alternative to the Tories, but that alternative has to be viable.
As for Gove, I despise the man. When I look at him he gives me the creeps, much like Michael Howard used to. But I don't much like the other candidates either, but agree with 15West that I think I prefer May at the moment, albeit I liken it to choosing between getting kicked in the balls or being smacked in the face with a dustbin lid.
Just as a matter of interest, who do you think are "ordinary Labour people"? Genuine question, because I don't think I know anymore, and if some of the results are to be believed that group (whoever they are) may have swung the referendum outcome.
i would vote corbyn just because he is one of the very few politicians that i feel is still honest......
a sad state of affairs
In the past i have been a three way tied vote...I would vote depending on the individuals and which elections they actually are as welsh assembly works differently and so does the local ones.....
But The lib dems lost their chance for me when they bedded down with the tories so I am now left with just two parties......which isnt bad as for local elections there are often just two parties that bother to stand.....
I vote Labour by default, I think I've voted Green a couple of times when I cared about such things. Manchester is pretty safe for Labour.
I'm not sure if Corbyn is a good thing or not...I just want them to sort it out. A divided Labour party doesn't stand a chance.
Green never seem to stand where I live... they would have a chance......I'm in a safe labour area.but for my local councillors they are always plaid.....2 positions and we only ever have the option of 2 plaid candidates and one labour. Even labour doesnt even try to find two candidates to stand....and the other parties have never even tried .
always seems strange to me
I am worried taht UKIP will stand next time and the surrounding area has been getting more UKIP support and the area voted out...as the remain campaign didnt even manage a single poster let alone a voice
That would be 'fewer'. If you live here, learn the language....
I fear, however, that there is some truth in what you say (that is, some people want fewer immigrants), and the vote has, horribly, given the nasty, xenophobic and racist element licence to feel they can spout their horror with impunity. The truth, of course, is that it's the political and economic system that shafts people, not immigration, but that's a big debate.
I left the Labour party a long time ago because I didn't like the direction it was taking, and I'm now a Green (but voted Labour in the last general election because, though I'm in a safe Tory seat, I didn't want the horrible LibDems to finish second - and they didn't: complicated!). I've been leaning back towards Labour with Corbyn leading, but if he's unseated by this plot there's no way back for me. Truth is, the honourable course was to put up a candidate by getting enough MPs' signatures (evidently they would have done) and stand against him. They knew they would lose that so, apparently with the connivance of a PR company that employs a bunch of old Blairites, they used the stunts of staggered resignations and a non-binding vote of no-confidence to get rid of him and deny the will of the membership. It's a complete outrage. Good on him for staying put.
The resigners, to my mind, should also resign their seats, stand as independent Labour and see how far they get.
We need to get rid of FPTP in favour of PR.
Unless you live in a marginal constituency your vote means little in a General Election. We have had the same MP for donkey's years, all that has happened is that his majority has gone up and down.
OK, that means his popular but unless you vote for him there is pretty much no point in turning up at the polling station.
This last week has exposed the worst of politicians and the system in which they operate. We need to start again. New ideas, new parties, new alliances, new voting system - otherwise all we will ever have in power is a bunch of right wing liars continuing to tell people that their problems are all somebody else's fault.
As for Corbyn, he either needs to go or split his party.
He is a principled man but has completely the wrong personality. He is not a communicator. He seems to keep quiet when he should be vocal and every time he does open his mouth what he says gets misinterpreted.
This is not the man who can deliver the country from people like Nigel Farage who communicate using simple slogans and carefully chosen language.
I don't mean 4 sunny holidays a year and shopping in Waitrose, I just mean being able to eat, dress and life a life that does not leave them feeling like they have failed themselves or their children. As is usual for the ruling class the have decided to divide and conquer. Set the poor against the poor and use the ensuing carnage as a destruction while they feather their own nests. The aftermath of such behaviour is still being felt in Northern Ireland and may never go away. I just hope that the people here realise that the slippery slope only goes one way. The ladder was pulled up long before any of us were born.
I think you'll find there are liars across all political parties, not just the right wing ones.
Sometimes we don't have a labour candidate stand in our elections. At the last general election they just about scraped in ahead of UKIP and behind libdems, way behind the conservatives.
I do agree though that with the latest shit show we could do with a cross party consensus on where we go to from here. If nothing else, the events over the past 10 days have shown that no-one in any party has any idea on what we should do.
Unfortunately Screamy, a lot of people DO think their problems are somebody else's fault.
I don't think they do fear him. He is not a forceful enough personality. I have also seen enough BTL comments in the Graun to know that people misinterpret what he says with no help from the Murdoch Empire. They were commenting on the Israel/ISIS thing in rel time the other day.
I didn't say otherwise.
At the moment people's political allegiances seem to be tied in with whose lies they choose to believe. If it has basically turned into a lying contest we need to get rid of all of them all and start again.
A recession is coming and every recession has a silverlining as the rich say.
I like Corbyn...but I do think he's a bit of a crap leader. He's fine preaching to the converted...but how's he going to get conservative working class and leave voters onside, as well as win seats in the key areas they need to win elections. Maybe McDonnell might have been better, he certainly comes across more reasoned. I don't see anyone in Labour who could be a decent replacement of Corbyn now, I think Labour might be finished. Then we'll have Tories vs UKIP vs SNP, woohoo!
I think they fear him because he is one of the very few that would actually implement the recommendations of the leveson enquiry... so many promised that they would but feared the newspapers would go against them if they did
This. To win an election you need to convert people to your thinking that are not on your side to begin with. Jeremy Corbyn won't do that (he can't even do it within his own party). To be honest I don't think Labour actually has anyone who can do it. at the moment.
I cant believe the labour mps all resigned as a show of no confidence without a plan going forward.
There really does not seem to be a single one of them competent enough to actually take the reigns and so it just shows how stupid they are to have self destructed just at the time the Tories were in a mess.
It's the MPs, not Corbyn who are splitting the party. He has an overwhelming mandate. That is important. For years the right of the Labour party tried to get the voting system changed to erode the power of the unions. Now it's closer to one person one vote and they get a result they don't like, they try to annul the people. Look at last week. I didn't like the result of the referendum, but I can hardly complain when more people voted out than in. That's democracy.
The mandate of his own supporters isn't worth a hill of beans when it comes to actual government. If you can't appeal to the majority of the voting public in the constituencies that you really need to win, you are never going to win a general election. He may have integrity, principles and all the rest of it. None of it matters on its own.
He doesn't see immigration as a problem but many former Labour voters do,. This is a huge problem for him. Either he gets out and persuades them (not seen any evidence of him doing that) or we all have to accept that his party are dead in the water.
He may have integrity, principles and all the rest of it. None of it matters on its own.
So what the public wants is a charismatic liar and cheat who they can believe in.
🙂
Without the whole war business it wasn't so bad.
Here you go comrades. I like John Harris' reports, this is from a compass alliance meeting yesterday...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5RPpq1j-LE&app=desktop
Confusing isn't it.
The discussion about who the leader of 'whatever' is, nowadays comes down to presentation and image.
Do you like the look of them? do they look good? Can they talk like a DJ?
Before Cameron was elected I saw a montage of several candidates for the leadership. I had no idea or interest in what they had to say. It didn't matter. I knew what the criteria would be.
I simply looked at the pictures and pointed to one face and declared, " He'll win, he looks better than all the rest".
I was correct.
Conversely, Gove will never win because he looks like Gove. However, his is a double minus because he appears to be as bad as he looks.
Anyway. I forgot this bit.
When all these educated people who voted 'remain' complained that they wanted the same opportunities for their children as they had had. Why is it that their children are now forced into debt for their education, whereas their parents had theirs for free?
Before, it was possible to go to University work/not work. Get a result or no result. Cost of course - Zero.
So if you came away with a degree, it was a plus, plus situation. If you failed, it only cost you time.
Now the goal posts have been moved. It costs whether the student passes or fails.
I don't hold with that bit about the debt only being paid back if the victim earns enough. Interesting that the limit is set so low it's damn near minimum wage rate.
Personally, I feel that debt should only be paid back if the student hits higher rate tax level.
Instead the poor (and they are) sods are coerced into 'taking an offer they can't refuse'.
That's the real tragedy. Not the leaving of the EU or political squabbles.
It's putting the next generation into debt before they have even started.
🙂
Thank the Lib dems for student fees and the referendum. They made it all possible. I feel cheated because I voted for them in that election (but gladly they did not get in where I live). If they had gone in with labour we would have a much less divided society today. It seems sad that when gifted a chance at governing, they get it so wrong that they will not be trusted again.
Agree with all that Ric.