Are you and "in" or an "out"?

MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

Well come on then, let's do this one ...
A week to go:
1. Are you leave or remain or undecided?
2. Why's that?
3. Regardless of 1. above, what do you think the result will be?

I'm going to vote to remain.

I have no great enthusiasm for the EU and think we should have voted not to join in 1975. But now we're in I think the risks of quitting will be too great. And I don't like the extreme right-wingers who want to "take control" - they're the last people I want to see anywhere near power, let alone running the show.

But I think the result will be to leave. Because the arguments to stay in are complex and nuanced while the Brexiteers' slogan "we want our country back" is simple and visceral (and bollox).

Cameron called the referendum not on some point of principle but out of self- and party interest, to see off the Kippers. I reckon he's regretting it now.

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Comments

  • Still in the shaking it all about phase 

  • senidMsenidM ✭✭✭
    Although I have reservations re the EU, I'm an "innie".



    I have even more reservations re the Brexiteers, how will they get our country back? they're not a party, no ones elected them, it really is just pie-in-the-sky stuff when they say what we can do if we leave. Our elected Govt, i.e. the Tories may have a different agenda if we leave!



    And for point 3, I think we're heading out, the little englanders will have their way and in 10 years time when we still have an immigration problem they'll still be complaining.



    Or, we'll have gone so far down the economic plughole, no-one wants to come here any more and they'll be happy, if somewhat poorer.
  • Remain, for pretty much the same reasons as you Mutts.

  • Mr PuffyMr Puffy ✭✭✭
    No one ever gets this poem...least of all the people who think Britain's great...

    Remain



    Quinquireme of Nineveh from distant Ophir,

    Rowing home to haven in sunny Palestine,

    With a cargo of ivory,

    And apes and peacocks,

    Sandalwood, cedarwood, and sweet white wine.



    Stately Spanish galleon coming from the Isthmus,

    Dipping through the Tropics by the palm-green shores,

    With a cargo of diamonds,

    Emeralds, amythysts,

    Topazes, and cinnamon, and gold moidores.



    Dirty British coaster with a salt-caked smoke stack,

    Butting through the Channel in the mad March days,

    With a cargo of Tyne coal,

    Road-rails, pig-lead,

    Firewood, iron-ware, and cheap tin trays.
  • booktrunkbooktrunk ✭✭✭

    Was very in, now less 'very' but am still going to vote in.

  • CindersCinders ✭✭✭

    Sort of stay in but shake things up.

  • Mr PuffyMr Puffy ✭✭✭
    Yes the best result would be an extremely narrow remain that would give a mandate to British politicians to challenge what is wrong about the EU, but europe will see a yes vote as an endorsement of all its policies. The question is just too narrow.
  • Stephen hawking and Brian Cox are for remain.

    Joey Essex. Farage. Gove and Boris for leave.



    I think i know what I will be voting for.
  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Fair point Mr P but a problem with a narrow win for either side is that the other will feel there's mileage in carrying on. Or more likely, if it's a narrow win for Remain the Brexiteers will keep going. At least the Scottish referendum had a clear margin, not enough to put the SNP back in its box but enough to take independence off the agenda for a while. It'll take more than that to shut the Out campaign up.

    Although I do like watching Tories fighting like ferrets in a sack image

  • Its a definite out for me.

    I am not really into politics because it is always the same. We hear all sorts from so called expert analysis predicting prosperity to recession, Its the same argument we hear every time an election arises and always proves to be bollocks so just how can any of us be really sure now. To me its more of a fear factor technique. Scare the uncertainties, which is why the remain will have a pretty handsome win regardless of what the polls suggest. Lets play it safe Sam.

    This is our chance to get out and make our own decisions without being dictated to. There is just to much of it in the world. I think we are being held to ransom on many key issues for the sake of the advantages it has to offer like free trade. Well this is for the wrong reasons to me. It has just grown to big and out of control. 28 is a complete joke. What it has turned out to be is a system where you scratch my back and I will scratch yours to get a slice of the pie. This is not why we joined and if we was out right now then there is no way we would vote to join. Breaking will bring new challenges and negotiations over the next few years but so what, We will cope.

     

     

  • Nose NowtNose Nowt ✭✭✭
    Muttley wrote (see)


    But I think the result will be to leave. Because the arguments to stay in are complex and nuanced while the Brexiteers' slogan "we want our country back" is simple and visceral (and bollox).

    .


    Muttley.. I am completely aligned with your entire original post.

    I've tried to make the bit of the argument that I've quoted here... but never found the words. You've done it really very well.

     

    Mr. Puffy... always one of my favourite poems... one of the few I can recite.  I think I know why you posted it. But I'm no poetry buff and because you say that no one ever "gets it", I'm now thinking there's a deeper meaning than the pretty shallow one that I've always assumed!

  • Right now there is a housing crisis in London. For which, if you choose, you can blame immigration. 

    Now what has the former mayor - yeah, you know the guy that well-known "Leave"campaigner, done about it?

    I'll give you an example - Nine Elms. Two miles of solid housing development, the biggest building site in London. I can see 15 cranes from my office window.

    Are any of these being built for nurses or teachers or people on low wage? Are they shite. Among the high end luxury apartments with spas and swimming pools, Even the apparently "affordable" housing starts at nearly £400,000. I. None of this is "the fault" of immigration or the EU it's the fault of a planning policy that relies on foreign investment companies to build new developments, the idea here being since they are putting up some of the cash for the Northern Line extension they can do as they please in terms of what they build. The government could do something but it but doesn't want to pay. Tories never want to pay and won't suddenly be doing it if we leave the EU.

    It proves that Boris and chums don't actually care and, if anything, are choosing to perpetuate the housing crisis. Why on earth would you believe their promises about what will happen if we leave the EU? If anyone thinks all this "freed-up" cash is going to end up being used to build homes and prop up the NHS they are very naive.

     

     

     

     

  • 1. Remain

    2. Mostly self-interest (i.e. I think I'll personally be better off), but also the Leave campaign has failed to answer the fairly basic question of what sort of relationship we will have with the EU if we quit. So if you vote Leave what exactly are you voting for?

    3. Up until a week ago I was pretty confident Remain would win. Right now I'm quite nervous and I think it could go either way.

     

  • Remain for the reasons most have given - scared about what Johnson & Gove has got up their sleeves.

    I work in the NHS and all the crap about migrants being the problem is annoying - the problem is low finding per % of GDP on the NHS.

    Hopefully the British public will do the sensible thing, but getting worried.

  • Was undecided at the start..but firmly in the remain camp now..

    I am really worried that we will vote out and get Boris as pm and then Trump to win to seal it all off

     

    s

  • There is a proportion who think voting out with make Britain great again and we will start winning at football and cricket again..

  • Err We do win at cricket & rugby
  • ZouseZouse ✭✭✭

    1. Firmly remain.

    2. Much as I disagree with AA Gill on many things, he wrote a great piece in the Sunday Times & I'll just quote the last half:

    "...We listen to the Brexit lot talk about the trade deals they’re going to make with Europe after we leave, and the blithe insouciance that what they’re offering instead of EU membership is a divorce where you can still have sex with your ex. They reckon they can get out of the marriage, keep the house, not pay alimony, take the kids out of school, stop the in-laws going to the doctor, get strict with the visiting rights, but, you know, still get a shag at the weekend and, obviously, see other people on the side.

    Really, that’s their best offer? That’s the plan? To swagger into Brussels with Union Jack pants on and say: “ ’Ello luv, you’re looking nice today. Would you like some?”

    Have no doubt, this is a divorce. It’s not just business, it’s not going to be all reason and goodwill. Like all divorces, leaving Europe would be ugly and mean and hurtful, and it would lead to a great deal of poisonous xenophobia and racism, all the niggling personal prejudice that dumped, betrayed and thwarted people are prey to. And the racism and prejudice are, of course, weak points for us. The tortuous renegotiation with lawyers and courts will be bitter and vengeful, because divorces always are and, just in passing, this sovereignty thing we’re supposed to want back so badly, like Frodo’s ring, has nothing to do with you or me. We won’t notice it coming back, because we didn’t notice not having it in the first place.

    Let's hope that people see sense and realise that this isn't a protest vote. The EU is by no means perfect and needs reform but once you're out of the club there is no 14 day refund period. It's too late."

    3. I am really scared that those who just don't get the ramifications of leaving will vote us out. In fact, I don't think I've ever been so worried about the outcome of an election. image

  • Simon Coombes 2 wrote (see)

    Remain for the reasons most have given - scared about what Johnson & Gove has got up their sleeves.

    I work in the NHS and all the crap about migrants being the problem is annoying - the problem is low finding per % of GDP on the NHS.

    Hopefully the British public will do the sensible thing, but getting worried.

    Apparently the combined wealth of the richest 5 or 6 people in the country could fund the entire NHS for 5 years and 4 months. We can afford all this stuff it's just the rich don't want to pay their fair share of tax or fund anything that doesn't benefit them.

    Plenty of money for HS2 funnily enough...

    Zouse - good analogy.

  • Snap!Snap! ✭✭✭

    Remain, but I don't mind if it goes the other way. In truth the thing I'm most immediately worried about is interest rates, mortgage and the value of my property, neither of which is going to be affected that much in the long term. i, and most people I know, think a vote to leave would be painful, but good for us in the long run. A bit like having a rotten tooth pulled out.

  • O Blimey, 12 to 1 so far. Any more outers out there. I am feeling rather isolated here image

     

    Edit. snap makes it 13

  • NessieNessie ✭✭✭

    That's a great quote Zouse, and rather how I felt about the Scottish Referendum.

    Or, as I heard someone say last night (sorry, it was on the BBC news channel about 11:45, but I was tidying up to go to bed, so I have no idea who she was so I can't credit her) "Go into Tesco and ask for a discount on the basis that you buy more from them that they do from you, and see how you get on."

    I'm a remainer.

    I get that there may be some mileage in the "we pay more in than we get out" argument, although I suspect the figures on both sides are hugely massaged to suit the different agendas.  BUT - isn't that kind of what it's all for?  Helping the countries in Europe develop from being net takers to net contributers by improving their economies and industries?  If all countries decided that they wanted more out than they put in, who pays?  This expectation that we should get more back in grants than we pay in - it's like wanting a perfect NHS but not being willing to pay more tax.

    There are plenty of things wrong with the EU.  But overall I think it's a good thing for all of Europe, and we are part of Europe.  There are probably more things wrong with the UK government system, but we can't get rid of it.  What this whole referendum has highlighted (more than we knew already) is that you can't trust any side to be honest, have integrity, or have the interests of the people they are supposed to represent at the heart of what they do.  Which makes me sad and angry in equal measures.

    So, even though it sticks in my throat to agree with the pig lover, I'm in.

  • In.  Though I'd like it to be close enough that the folks in Brussels get a bit of a reality check, because there's lots wrong with the EU.

    I strongly suspect that the vote won't be that close - only those with the most extreme views on either side get the media attention, but most people are much more in the middle and I would think that the 'better the devil you know' argument will persuade a lot towards the 'In' box.

  • There are probably more things wrong with the UK government system, but we can't get rid of it.  What this whole referendum has highlighted (more than we knew already) is that you can't trust any side to be honest, have integrity, or have the interests of the people they are supposed to represent at the heart of what they do.

    Quite so, Nessie.

    If the economy goes tits-up the rich will suffer a bit while the poor will suffer a lot. It's the nature of modern capitalism. Many of the very people who seem to think these tossers are campaigning to leave for their benefit will be the ones that suffer the most.

    Turkeys voting for Christmas.

  • Cheerful Dave wrote (see)

    In.  Though I'd like it to be close enough that the folks in Brussels get a bit of a reality check, because there's lots wrong with the EU.

    I strongly suspect that the vote won't be that close - only those with the most extreme views on either side get the media attention, but most people are much more in the middle and I would think that the 'better the devil you know' argument will persuade a lot towards the 'In' box.

    I think that is a fair point. You don't have to make a noise about it if you broadly support the status quo. I suppose it depends on the number of undecideds, although estimates vary quite a bit on how many of them there are.

  • HappychapHappychap ✭✭✭
    Screamapillar wrote (see)

    Turkeys voting for Christmas.

    Nicely put.  I will vote in for most of the eloquently put reasons above but I fear the public may vote the opposite so I've taken the precaution of putting a tenner on Boris/Trump being in office at the same time.

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    100% in.  For all manner of reasons stemming from both my heart (I've always been a big Europhile and, for reasons too complicated to bother explaining, without the EU I would never have met my wife) and head.

    How often do you see most of those representing business interests on the same side of a political debate as those representing worker's rights and the environmental lobby?  This is the case for a damn good reason.  Virtually no-one seems likely to gain from an EU exit.

    Also, this is the 21st century.  It's a globalising world, and retreating into the womb of isolation, waving our union flags as we head back up the fallopian tubes, might feel comforting for a bit but it is blind to the reality of how the world works now.  It is far, far better to be co-operating with those with whom we share the most common interests.

    Finally, I know this gets mocked for its dramatism, but 70 years of peace in Europe is actually a pretty fucking stupendous achievement, and, yes, much of that can be laid at the door of the EU.  No, if the EU were to break up, there wouldn't suddenly be a massive pan-continental conflict again, but it starts to create a condition where the seeds of future conflict can grow.  The EU is a huge democratising influence.  Countries with ambitions to join have to meet a whole host of conditions that help to embed democracy.  Look at the rise of the far right in Austria, or even France, in recent years.  Democracy is a more fragile construct than we often think.

    Ultimately, this isn't a decision whether we want to be in the tent pissing out or outside the tent pissing in.  It's whether we want to be in the tent full stop, or outside pissing all over ourselves.

  • Wot he said image

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭
    Dachs wrote (see)
    Finally, I know this gets mocked for its dramatism, but 70 years of peace in Europe is actually a pretty fucking stupendous achievement, 

    Apart from the Balkans. I agree with your point though. 

  • DachsDachs ✭✭✭

    You are right of course, and it rather underlines the point that where there have been conflicts they are in those parts not covered by the EU.

    I should point out that, given that I'm easily identifiable on here, and am in a vaguely politically sensitive job, I don't usually do politics on this site.  This is my one exception, as I really fear we are about to make a major error.

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