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Over 60's training (Part 2)
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Great running 12 miles but hope the stiff knees ease for you.Nothing wrong with running daily
Torque
Shame about no food but I am sure you managed.Enjoy Newcastle.
I have run 6 miles every day and at the early time as well I feel I am back to normal ....whatever normal is
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Toughish session to report from yesterday. Short warm up at 6:40 miling, 4 x 4 mins with 2 mins recovery (@ 5:27/5:00/5:00/6:00 min miling with the recovery at 6:40). (Shame it was at 90% bodyweight on the anti-gravity treadmill!) In the dim and distant past that would have not been a difficult session on the track at 100% bodyweight (although my bodyweight is now 20%+ higher than it was then!).
Mick: definitely worth putting one of these machines in the new gym in the new house!
I was super impressed with 4x4s at sub 6 min miles. How much impact do you think the 90% had?
Yes we will be putting in a new treadmill and weights in the new house. While in Aruba we tried one of these new fancy treadmills with a large monitor. I ran in the mountains one day and along side a river on the second session. My wife really liked it but I did not like running looking down at the screen. I am 6' 1".
Dave,
I would be very careful with the stiff knees. Based on my experience over the last two years and the time it took for me to recover I would strongly recommend seeking professional help so you can correct things immediately before the wear in your knees gets too far.
TS,
Loved the DIY repair, right up my street.
I think I over did my weight session on Wednesday after my shingles vaccination so took yesterday off.
Made up for it today with 3 x 1k at 5:21 per k + 500m at 5:21. Hr profile still looks good but definitely feeling it.
Garmin still disagrees with the treadmill. I had the treadmill set to 5:21 per km on all 4 repeats yet garmin had them all different.
I suspect my stride length is a little longer than garmin estimates but happy with the cadence.
4 weeks to go before my first race of the season so still a few weeks to sharpen things up.
Getting outside would really help but we had a snow storm overnight so no chance today.
I did shovel as a pre run warmup.
Mick
A bit of a hamstring niggle following Thursday's a-g, (or more likely the longish stretching session afterwards) saw a sensible approach to parkrun today, pacing a friend around to sub 26:30. Last week he couldn't get under 30! Even that wasn't too bad for an M70! He often sets off too fast, presumably because he thinks he is half the age that he is! Don't we all! As you know I now take the opposite approach and run progressively, which means that by and large I pass runners the whole way which makes for little targets and helps confidence!
Who manufactures the ag that you use? Good luck with the hamstring.
Yesterday was very warm +5c, last night was cold -13c, so lots of ice around this morning.
It is a beautifully sunny day but I chickened out again.
Easy recovery run on the treadmill at a 6:30 per km pace. HR profile was good and no over heating.
As this was at a slow pace garmin over estimated my speed , rather than the usual under estimate when I do intervals. There seems to be one speed that it gets right.
As this is so predictable you think their software designers could fix it. I wish they would make the code available I would fix it myself.
Mick
Think it is an older model than the ones currently on their website.
alehouse - quite an improvement by your friend - either he wasn't trying hard enough last week, or you have exceptional pacing skills . . . .
food for thought re the knees, Mick . . . ran around 9.5 supporting at a half marathon today (my marathon mentee chum, plus other clubmates , were there), and legs/knees not too bad (relatively), but stiffened horribly in the hour it took to drive home.
Dave
Ugly looking brutes, not sure Mrs mick60 would go for it.
Dave,
A runner of your age is bound to have some wear and tear in the knees. You can mitigate this if you catch it early enough. You need to know what sort of wear is going on.
A rest day for me today.
Now I have reduced my running to only 4 days a week with 2 xtraining days I find I can handle 2 speed sessions a week.
What would people consider the best value for my time, tempos, 1k repeats short intervals for a 5k?
I am currently doing tempos and 1ks.
Mick
Absolutely totally normal........it is the rest of the world that is not
Ale: well done on pacing your friend at parkrun.
Mick:I will leave those with more experience than me to answer your question.
Saturday 6 miles early starting to see pace slightly increased tortoise slow that time of day.Sunday 6 miles rugby club route 10.21 average pace this was at around 7.30am.
It was to be my half marathon yesterday glad I decided not to run it and stick to 10 milers as max.The weather was windy and wet!!
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Yesterday a double day 6.10 miles early then 4.60 miles later I usually only do 4 for first run and I extended second run over a bridge and back.longest distance is 8+ weeks.
Feeling it this morning very tired but 6 mile recovery run all done but I feel I am on a go slow today and may need a nap later! Torrenial rain this morning as well but looks like it has cleared up for the moment.
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Stayed away for another night. Got back just in time to cut the lawns for the first time this year before the deluge returned!! still a bit soggy in places
Welshpoppy
well done on a double day backed up with a good run this morning. Doubles can be quite an effective way of increasing distance without too much strain
Dave
did you see my 60 day report on the effects of Glucosamine and Chondroitin on my knees/hips/hands from a week or so ago?
There are many factors that can contribute to knee stiffness and as Mick said you need to isolate what is causing it before starting any treatment.
I certainly empathise with the stiffness that occurs immediately after running if one sits down for a while.
I have found that in order to minimise the effects I have to keep moving around a little after a run when the one thing I want to do is sit down and have a nice hot drink!! Even walking around the kitchen whilst drinking aforesaid hot drink alleviates the stiffness - and driving immediately after a run will certainly increase the stiffness.
Causes are many and various but you do a lot of mileage at a fairly steady pace and ligaments and muscles shorten as one gets older and lose strength when they are not regularly tested so some stretching and strengthening exercises targetting the knees and connective tissue may be beneficial so that load is more economically transferred around the limbs.
I did a test a couple of weeks ago and was dismayed to find out how much flexibility and strength I had lost - and of course I have only been doing even paced slow runs for quite a while now.
Worthwhile to get a check done for wear & tear - everyone has some degree of osteo-arthritis so don't be dismayed if that's what is found and it may not be the cause of the stiffness!
Alehouse
good pacing
5 min miles sound excellent!
I recall seeing somewhere where one could adjust one's times for weight handicap - I definitely need that boost after a few days away
I managed 5.2 miles on Sunday in an appallingly slow 54 minutes and then did 4.1 miles yesterday in an equally slow 42:45 - personal worst for each distance
That's what happens after 4 days away eating and drinking too much ...............
Great double.
TS,
They may have been your worst but at least they were consistent.
Warm day yesterday +++++12c, so ran a 4k tempo with appropriate wu and cd. We still have a lot of snow around so lots of runoff. Finished up with wet feet.
Hr profile was on target but I just could not get in the groove so pace was off.
Still warm today but raining and I did not fancy wet feet again so indoors for a 5k recovery run.
Temperature is dropping back to -13c overnight so footing will suck. XTraining on the schedule for tomorrow.
I have been going to the local gym here for more than 10 years and have got to know a lot of people who are retired and go to the gym during the day. It has become more of a social club than a hard core workout place.
I am not sure that mixing with a lot of retired people is a good idea. The number of bypass , knee or hip replacement etc that I hear about is becoming depressing.
A good friend and running partner is scheduled for a heart valve replacement this Friday. It has already been postponed twice, once when he was all shaved and ready to go into the theatre, but that is the Canadian health care system for you.
This morning one of the regulars at the gym came up to me in his street clothes to tell me he was cancelling his membership. He has terminal liver cancer. How do you respond to that especially when he is near to tears.
I guess this comes with the territory of being over 70 but it does reinforce how lucky I am and how thankful I should be.
Mick
TS - thanks for the observations - yes, its true I do a lot of one paced running - occasionally strides, fartlek, but maybe I should mix it up more, in addition to the strength/flexibility work. I did see your Gluco/Chond report - perhaps that's something else to consider - certainly worth it for the price of, say, 3 months supply.
Anyway, actual running - rest yesterday, as legs creaky from Sunday, then 4 today, with aforementioned strides in the last 1.5 miles.
Mick - what a sobering encounter with your gym buddy. For all our talk of dodgy knees and slow training runs, you're right - we are lucky . . . .
oh, and I think alehouse is the one to advise you re optimum session for 5K . . .
Dave
Yes, a very sobering encounter, Mick, and very difficult to know what to say in the circumstances. And big swings in temperature don't help your routine!
Thanks for the vote of confidence re giving advice, Birch! I think the key thing is that at our ages, and probably any age, we build very gradually towards the optimum sessions: trying to get the balance right between coping and over-doing things.
I work towards two key sessions: reps of 4 minutes with 2 mins recovery and reps of around 30 seconds, ideally on a slight incline, with 90 seconds recovery. The maximum I would aim for would be 4 of the longer ones and 12 of the shorter. I would start with just one of those sessions per week (the longer one) and see how I managed in terms of recovery. I would be running at race pace or quicker, and depending on my current fitness would probably start with just 2 or 3 times 3 minutes. I would take around ten weeks to get to the maximum session. Initially my other runs during the week would be easy runs of 40 minutes to an hour: sometimes we run these too hard, I feel, impacting the key sessions; another run would be a fartlek, concentrating on short, stride-like quicker parts. After perhaps a month of this I would consider introducing 4 x 30 seconds, gradually adding one or two reps per week, taking a couple of months to get to the max session. I would also be supplementing the running with stretching and strength work.
The key things are progressive consistent consistency (a constant routine that very gradually moves to the next level and towards the maximum sessions). I would build in a cut-back week every 4 to 5 weeks.
TS: take the positives from being able to run for 54 minutes etc! See Mick's post yesterday!
Birch: re knees, I think work on the glutes (our shock absorbers) and the muscles above the knee would not go amiss. And good to see you are aware that you need to mix up the paces at times.
WP: I would be trying to work on consistent consistency in terms of getting out. Don't worry about the pace. In fact I would hide the watch!
Mick:
It is a very difficult situation with gym buddy and we have a lot to be grateful for!
Dave:
Well done not on creaky knee's but your session.I hope theknee's are less creaky soon.
Torque:
But you know why you were slower and can soon remedy it:-) you are out running and that is what matters:-)
No run today rest day I went back to bed for 3 hours as felt sick tired so giving myself the best chance of running tomorrow.
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Poppy - I trust the extra snooze time was beneficial, and you are back on the road tomorrow . . .
6 easy pace today, with my marathon chum - still glowing from her HM pb at the weekend (naturally, I take credit for my advice )
Dave
tough news to hear and so difficult to find any words of comfort in such a situation
I am going to a funeral tomorrow of a former Hasher who was diagnosed 4 years ago with untreatable cancer and given 3-6 months to live. He carried on regularly running with us for another two years and then irregularly for another year before finally turning up for just a drink occasionally.
His constant reply when asked how he was - "I'm still here
When battling up the hill into a stiff gale and being battered into submission this morning I thought of him
I do prefer to do longer intervals at race pace or above, typically 1 mile intervals, 4 min rest, in order to get the body used to that high level aerobic effort that is required in races.
It means that the body gets used to high levels of lactate and can more readily absorb it and use it as a part of the energy cycle. Lactate is actually good for one one in small doses and getting the body to accept it (buffering) is an important part of race preparation and simply to run faster.
Dave
I think your support and training help certainly does need recognition - preferably in a liquid form
Welshpoppy
I hope you are feeling better today and out there again
I was in London yesterday - much quieter on the streets. Avoided the Tube and walked 4.8 miles between meetings in quite pleasant, warm conditions. Fairly stiff after a mile fast jog to the meeting pub on Tuesday evening and then 4.2 miles on a cold, starry night.
This morning awake to snow on the lawns and a gale blowing along with bright sunshine!!
Managed 4.1 miles in 40:26 (10:00m/m) with avHR 130 and a max of 150 as I was battered by the wind coming up the hill in the last mile.
Satisfying to finish............................
I agree all this training I hope trainee is paying you in cake and beer's
Well done on getting out.
Torque:
Well done on surviving London and your runs;-) Snow again!
Happy to report back out there today 6 miles all done early and I was hailed on again for 3 miles.I am still fatigued so hope I can build up from today's run.
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Yesterday was another a-g treadmill session, so after the warm up it was 3 x 4 mins @ 90% bodyweight, running at 5:00, 5:00 and 4:57 mile pace with 2 minutes recovery and 1% gradient. No idea what that equates to in real life but it doesn't really matter: good to know I did a hard session! Legs were a bit battered on my recovery run today, and the rest of me was more than a bit battered by the wind.
Thanks for the suggestion of 4 x 4. I had forgotten that I had used these a lot to build some basic speed before my endurance training.
I have a search facility built into my training log so I search back and found a dozen or so. I quickly wished I hadn't as my pace was sub 7 min miles. and I was still in my 60s.
WP,
The weather here is starting to improve and all the snow is melting. You can keep your hail but well done to you for getting out there.
TS,
We have just got our first case of coronavirus in Ottawa so there is not a lot of concern about it. I don't blame you for avoiding the tube, that is not a great place to be at the best of times.
As I don't seem to be able to translate my treadmill times to the road I decided to do a set of 4 x 4s with 4 min recovery today. My pacing was all over the place from 8:50 to 9:30 per mile. My breathing and hr were ok but my legs seemed to be so clumsy. I did do a hard gym session yesterday which may account for it.
One positive was I added a pick up for the last 300m and maintained a sub 8 min pace and felt really smooth. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
Garmin screwed up my HR data so not much use. It would have been nice to compare it with the ones from my early 60s.
My cadence today was the same as 12 years ago but my stride length was much shorter 0.95m compared with 1.24m. I wonder what I can do to improve it.
Mick
Here people are panic buying toilet rolls!!, soap? and hand gel but also all other things .We have I think 25 cases in Wales.I checked when next internet delivery from Tesco's is in 11 days time so that tells it's own story.
Today 7.2 mile run longest single session since 27th January so lets hope no reaction and I can crack on. I want to try 4 minutes hard 2 minutes easy x 4 as a second session.
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
strange - I was filing a paper on stretches yesterday and came across a comparison paper I had produced on my quarter mile interval times pre and post spinal operation. The last entries were -
Wednesday 11 June 2014 (200m walk recovery)
01 1:29 128 145
02 1:37 140 156
03 1:28 136 153
04 1:39 136 156
05 1:28 134 154
06 1:37 142 160
07 1:28 136 154
08 1:37 143 161
09 1:27 138 156 ha - fooled the mind!!
10 1:39 143 162
Odd ones were slight downhill, even ones back up. I used to do 8 but on this occasion slipped in another 2.
I looked at them with some incredulity - average HR is just a bit above what I currently run at but they are averaging 6m/m pace
- and I was 68!!!
But it's Trudeau's wife that's caught it so it is probably half way round Ottawa now!!
Stride length is determined by muscle power and elasticity - it's all in the push off - basically more bangs for your buck!! See below.
This morning was bright, sunny and cold but no wind so I stepped out with just a thin base layer and tee shirt for probably the first time this year, still had gloves and tights on though!
Maybe it was the weather but I consciously tried to push off a bit on each stride rather than just letting the foot roll through the stance phase and I ran a little bit quicker for little/no more effort - 4.1 miles in 39:24 (9:45m/m) with avHR 132 and a max of 151
10:08 123 134
09:26 131 140
09:50 134 141
09:44 141 148 big hill back up
00:16 148 151 final "sprint" for home uphill
AV stride length was 0.92m going up to 1.05m as I pushed on a bit on the last section - so if you want to lengthen your stride - run faster
WP: I would be building gradually towards the 4 x 4 minutes, starting with just 2 x 3 mins!
Re stride length, yes, I'm concerned about mine also. Again it does come down to upper leg/glute strength I suspect, plus running faster...which we can't do very often. Strides after a run may help?
I am putting on a dinner tomorrow for around 75 (uni cross country club's 95th anniversary). Was debating about cancelling but took advice from a former GB team doctor who says go ahead, and will be attending. I am reassured that there will be half a dozen medics who are happy to attend, along with a couple of pharmacists!
good 7+ there (esp after your fatigue) - personally, I'd be careful doing a "session" as a second run of a daily double . . . . particularly as the first was the longest run for a while . . but good luck with it
day off yesterday, and probably today - my right knee seems to have moved from "stiff" to "injured" - after the 6 on Wed, was limping around, and yesterday (and to a lesser extent today) continual "dull" ache above the kneecap, but at bottom end of quads. ho-hum . . . .
Dave
hope they bring supplies of paracetamol and hand wash as well!!
Sounds like a good do
Dave
that is an unusual injury spot - can you recall twisting your knee at all?
There was a fascinating programme on BBC2 last evening abut building an improved human using Dr Alice Roberts as the baseline body.
As much of it was about obviating lower back problems and knees etc it fitted in well with what I wanted to see.
A particular highlight was the dissection of an emu's leg which reminded me that it is the tendons not the muscles, that absorb most of the shock in foot strike and so, in order to protect ones joints as much as possible, building up tendons and ligaments is very important.
Back to the achilles strengthening exercises on the stairs - one legged dips with 10kg of weight in a rucksack on my back then!!!
Well done on Trainee's 6 mins PB so close to going under 2 hours and a great even paced race she has a good teacher;-)
Some confusion I was not doing the session today but next week sometime;-) where I would only run 5 miles in morning.:-)
Ooh no I hope the rest does the knee a power of good sounds very strange......
Ale 3 mins x 2 sets it is then I will set it up on my garmin.
Miles makes smiles.
Progression
Yes it was outside. I will be interested in seeing how your 4 x 4 s go.
I had my 4 x 4 programmed into my garmin.
4 x 4 workout
I found it annoying to wait for the 4 mins to expire on the recover so I would suggest programming that to end when you press the Lap Button as I have programmed for the warm up and cool down.
The garmin connect website make programming this really easy and then you can just send it to your garmin and it will be there when you next synch.
TS,
How come you were faster uphill than downhill?
Interesting to see that your stride length is similar to mine. Running faster increases it but no where near the good old days.
I like the push off strength thought that is something I can work on in the gym.
I wouldn't jump to believing that Trudeau's wife has the virus. He is doing badly in the polls, so he is looking for the sympathy vote and she is probably feeling a bit off and he stretched the truth a bit. The politicians here are just as sleazy as those in the uk.
Alehouse,
Yes strides after a run really do work. Trouble here is I can't do them on the treadmill so it has been really limited for me to get outside this year.
Xtraining today, 5k row followed by weights with a focus on upper body. Did some one legged dips but with no weights.
Will do 4 x 4 s next week on Monday and Thursday keeping the recovery longer until the pace becomes more like my treadmill sessions.
Mick
resisted temptation to have test run. TS - can't remember twisting at all - but thinking about it, the pain began whilst driving back from last Sunday's HM support stint, after 9.5 miles running, with knee virtually in same position for an hour. those tendon excercises are impressive
have a good weekend, all
Dave