Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

Hilly

I'm not sure TmR. It was definitely muscle, but I was in shorts and it was freezing! I'm impressed with your 83 miles!

Thanks Mike, I'll keep a check on tiredness! I feel better than I did at the start of Cardiff training on the same mileage. I'm still keeping it at about 73 miles at the moment until after Christmas when I'll start to increase.

Mike-in terms of improvement. If I were able to peak at 100miles, which I'm not sure I could, do you think it would bring much more improvement? Just wondered:o)

[Deleted User]

Hey, I have done 82 mpw (cut back week) Decided to skip the 6m yesterday after the 22m, if I would have done it, I would walk like a robot today.

Hilly - There is only one way to find out- just do it ;-)

Mike Gratton 2

In theory yes, but it is a balancing act and you will get to a point of diminishing returns. What you get out of it is a question of factoring in total stress in your life, time available for training and recovery, age and experience, general health and biomechanics. If all those things are right you will maximise all your training input, get it wrong and you get tired and injured.....it's all very individual.

Hilly

Hi URR, I'm a little concerned that I might get injured! I was thinking more theoretically about improvements. I was thinking maybe I wouldn't improve more by adding an extra 20 miles a week. How does one know when they've reached their 'ceiling'-no more improvements?

Hilly

Just what I was thinking Mike.

[Deleted User]

Hilly, I find that I can do lots of miles as long as I keep the pace lower, but I find faster running (even still aerobic) brings injury. Like Mike says, it is an individual thing.
I just put in a 135M week and feel fresh legged if a little tired generally. But I know that I need to get on top of faster aerobic running if I am to do my best. That said lots of miles has worked wonders for me thus far.

[Deleted User]

I find I can knock out 90mpw with hard sessions / races with little stress. If I take it 10mpw higher I flirt with injury. Another factor is poor stretching and hydration. I guess if I want to run consistent 100 mile weeks I'll need to look at that.

Hilly

135miles is awesome Pantman and I just know my body wouldn't cope with that, not even at a slow pace!

I got up to 84 miles last marathon training including the faster work in the final phase and although I coped with it well, tiredness was a factor. Oh and my calves, which need constant massage!

BR-hydration is as you say very important. I try to make sure I drink at least 2 litres a day, but sometimes I do fall short of this!

Tigger's mate Roo

And I guess improvement gets measured in smaller and smaller units. If it was the case of breaking the world record it might be worth upping the mileage by 20mpw to knock off 10 secs... But having said that added years of hard training are also a major factor.

But my bottom line, at the moment, is, if I train as hard as my body (and all Mike's other factors) allow, what can I achieve, rather than thinking of a time goal, as I think I've said before. I'll only decide realistic marathon pace after March 1/2 marathons.

Hilly

How many races do you plan before the maraton TmR? I've got about 5 lined up, but might do a couple of xc's too.

[Deleted User]

After much, much thought, I have now decided that I will not do a Springtime marathon. I shall just be a parasite and take everything I can from this thread & use it sometime in the future - maybe Autumn. I'm sorry Mike cos I feel that I'm letting you down - but I will do one soon. I just feel that I've been making some improvements recently and want to concentrate on doing a couple or more of good halves starting with Helsby in Jan. I must be doing something right cos I'm running better than I was 8 years ago. So, one last question before I leave ( I'll probably still ask the odd question!) I feel that the increased mileage (now 60-65) is good for me - with 2 sessions hills & track - is this too much for someone only doing up to half? Thank you for all your other answers & to everyone else for answers to my questions.
I hope that you all stay motivated and keen so that you continue to ask good questions and I can read the answers to!

Hilly

Good luck FAS in making improvements over shorter distances next year. I'm sure you'll get some great results!:o)

Mike Gratton 2

Don't worry FAS, I will still e here answering any quetions I can. There is so much evidence that all distances benefit from a strong marathon type training base, so if you keep on with what you're doing I'm certain you will make progress at 10km & half marathons as well as be set up for a marathon when you decide to do one.

Tigger's mate Roo

Hilly, my problem is that I'm committed (but do enjoy) lots of XC races for the club. 2 league, county, Midland and National XC, also Midland road relays, but as these are all on Saturdays and quite short (up to c 6K) I don't taper for them, and just regard them as one of my hard sessions for the week (as I think Mike did).

I'll do at least one half marathon, whihc I'll taper for and use as a recovery week, and probably one other serious road race; perhaps a favourite off-road 21 ml race to count as hard long run.

But I'm also trying to work out if I can go with Mike and co. to the Algarve (depending mainly on Tigger-dog arrangements), but that clashes with 2 w/es when most of the 1/2 marathons happen. Any suggestions about this, Mike ? What do you suggest about build-up races ? Most of the big ones seem to get full very early so I guess we ought to lay plans now.

[Deleted User]

TMR - don't see it as a problem. I'm planning on racing 5 weeks in a row on the country from mid january, but 3 of them will simply be hard training runs. It's much easier to run a sustained tempo run when wearing the club vest, than by yourself, and the off road surface is great for strength. If you take care of your nutrition (i.e. high protein snack immediately afterwards) theres no reason why you can't get a long run in the day after, just take it easy on the monday!

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Tigger, If you do decide to come on the Algarve trip from 10 March. I would aim at racing the half before you go as you will find that there will be residual tiredness from the work on the camp and it takes a week to recover properly. I tjhink March 6th is a busy weekend with half marathons all over the place. You could then aim at doing a 10 miler or 10km race last week in March (Easter weekend - loads of races on) and a short race - relay or 5 miler first week in April then start taper to FLM.

Tigger's mate Roo

MB, the XC races certainly don't stop me doing my long runs on Sundays, though now you come to mention it, perhaps last w/e's 20ml felt so good because I hadn't run hard the day before ! And I do agree that it is much easier to run hard in a club race than by myself. (which reminds me of one of my first year's of running, when I went to a club session 30 mins after an hour's hockey practise; could never keep up with one club-mate, but then was amazed to find I beat her easily in our half marathon in the Spring. It was only years later that it dawned on me that the hockey training might have taken quite a lot out of me, but also made the run worth more. )

Tigger's mate Roo

Thanks, Mike. I'll try and do that. The choices for 6th March seem to be Reading (can anyone tell me how overcrowded this is?) or Friskney, in Lincs, which is rather a long drive for me (again any personal info ?)

I'll look up races for Easter w/e, too. Anyone with recommendations ?

Twin Dad Twice

Thanks for your advice a few posts back, Mike! Will have a go at what you recommended in Oz - have a good Christmas & Near everyone!!!

[Deleted User]

Reading is fairly popular, I've never run it though. It's now the otherway round to how it used to be, starting from the Majedski Stadium, running down the hill into town, then back up to the start.

I've gone for Wilmslow on the 20th, because it is normally one of the fastest UK races and I want a quick half time this year too. I'm of the view that if I'm going to put most of my training effort into four months of the year, then ideally I'd like a shot at PB's over 10k, 10M HM and Marathon, since if it all does go wrong at London at least I can look back at the season and get some positives from it.

Here is a post I put on the runfastuk list a month or so ago:

--------------------

The big ones seem to be:

6th March (6 weeks pre london) Reading (day after the UK
inter-counties)
13th March (5 weeks) Liverpool, Silverstone, Hastings

20th March (4 weeks) Wilmslow, Bath, (others this day
include Fleet, Milton Keynes, Ackworth)

Hastings is a great race, very well organised and a good prize list (I got
something for 73:50 in 2003) BUT not the place to run a fast time. I think I
was in the shape to run about three minutes quicker that day.

Silverstone always seems to be very short on the quality (a couple of
sponsored athletes, then nothing til the 70s). I guess it would suit someone
wanting a big pay day, but I'd prefer to be part of a pack working towards a
good time, even if that meant being back in the 30s. Would Liverpool as a
sister to Silverstone suffer the same fate (be full of people doing a paced
run before london, to try out the drinks etc, but be very low on quality),
also both these races are the same day as Eastleigh 10k, which I would
prefer to do.

In the UK that leaves (of the big races) Wilmslow and Bath, I've done
neither. Any comments from people who have done them before? Just how flat /
fast are they?

One foreign option is the City Pier City half in The Hague, Holland which
this year is on the 19th of March. Pancake flat, and a very fast course
(except if there is a gale blowing off the north sea between about miles 7
and 9). It's an afternoon race, and I did it as a day trip from the uk
(about half an hour from Amsterdam and Rotterdam airports on the other side)
in 2001 and 2002. The field is very good, and the organisers (who speak
english) gave me a free elite number both years. www.cpcloop.nl

Hilly

I'm tending to stick with local races in the build up to FLM. Mainly because they incorporate my club Champs, so it suits me. The only ones that I'm doing that are away from local area are Longleat 10k in Feb and maybe Bideford 1/2 on 6th March, which is flat and fast apparently.

I don't really like doing the really big events where there's thousands of runners as I like to have space to run. Unfortunately not being at the front of the pack sometimes makes that difficult in huge races.

I do fancy a few of the overseas ones, but don't want to travel too far due to fear of flying:o)

Pammie*

FAS

I'm not planned to do a marathon yet!!
But will be using all the advice here to help me in a hopefully 15 miler next year.
and any half's 10k's 5 milers etc i may do.

Mike Gratton 2

Plenty of good events you can get to by Eurostar or car Hilly, Brussels 20km at end of May is a good one for post FLM, and all the channel ports have good races, I used to do 20km races in and around Calais a lot when I lived in Canterbury, Le Touquet in July/August was always a favourite - although needing a medical certificate to enter French races is a bit of a pain now. There's a great buzz around the French races and quality always seems to be high with lots of North africans living in France and running the circuit.

Tigger's mate Roo

Thanks, MikeB. I agree that pre-FLM serious race needs to be a fast course, but for other criteria I'm with Hilly. Even if I come in the top few in my age category a big field makes getting going difficult, unless the race is very well organized, roads wide enough for field; lack of quality at the sharp end not an issue for me!

Going abroad pre-FLM, and to the ALgarve not really an option for me.

I'll have to look up how far Bideford is from Birmingham. Can it really be flat in Devon ?

Hilly

Apparently it is TmR.

I've just realised though that I'm doing Christchurch 20 miles on that day, which is totally flat if you're interested. It's in Burton, which is isn't far from Poole in Dorset. Not a big field of runners. I've done it 2 years now and was 3rd one year and 4th the next, so quality not as high as big races!

I like the sound of doing some races in France Mike-I could even cope with a flight there:o)

Seriously thinking of doing some overseas races next year.

[Deleted User]

hilly Amsterdam is a very short flight and a nice flat course and well organised, have a marathon, half and a 10k.

Hilly

Hi Jane, it's one I'm thinking about doing next year after reading such good reports about it.

Hilly

I'm going to be around for Christmas and will pop on here when I can, but for those who are going to be busy or away have a Merry, Merry Christmas!:o)

I've woke with a scratchy throat, just hope it's nothing.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the reply Mike, I think I know why I got injured, it may have something to do with racing on 7 successive weekends which resulted in running my fastest 1/2 marathon and 10k's for 4 years. I have decided to back off as you suggested and I am hoping I will be ready to race again in early January in the final X-Country league race. I also plan to race a 1/2 marathon each month and also a 10k 2 weeks before London, is this wise, and also at what rate should I try and get my mileage back up. Prior to my injury I was running 50+ for about 10 weeks and I am aiming to get close to your hard training schedule. ps have a good Christmas and New year

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Trouty, Yep - 7 consecutive hard races may be the problem! Half marathon once a month shouldn't present a problem and could show your progress through to FLM, they may alo force you take an easier week once a month. Your mileage build up can be quite quick if you don't put in too much quality (too many races) then when you are confident that you're on top of it start to up the pace a bit.