Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

Welshpoppy

Lurking

[Deleted User]

SiT, yes...lots of 70-75% running in the base phase...build up the miles slowly and patiently...pick up the pace of sessions as you get nearer the race...

FAS, although it may feel slow now, you should find your pace increases at the lower effort levels so when you ease back into higher effort levels in the New Year, you will be better conditioned and starting your faster work from a higher fitness base.

Hilly

I've found that this time round my 70-75% is faster than when I did my last marathon training, which is pleasing! At first I thought I was running my easy runs too fast, but when I wore my hrm it tells me I'm not and as I'm no more tired than last time again it tells me I'm not. So onward and upward!

[Deleted User]

Exactly Hilly - did a ca 8.5 mile run today in 5 mins quicker than at same hr 4 weeks ago. A fantastic feeling.

Simon

[Deleted User]

I am doing 1 minute per kilometre faster (for the same effort) than when I started in September. I have been doing all my runs at 70 to 75% of my max HR.

[Deleted User]

This heart rate..... have you all done the horrible tough one to establish it - or do you just use the 220-age one? Surely this is too conservative to use or do all lie about you age & pretend to be younger? Having said that - when I'm doin 400s or hills - the most I can get my heart rate up to is 174 & only occasionally then. - 174 being my 'age related maximum' I'm sure that I've read that this is not very reliable - or am I just imagining again?
Please help all you experienced marathoners!

Unknown

Hi, I think I get the message that I need to slow down, I'm sorry but I don't have a heart rate monitor could you tell me what sort of pace per mile I should be running. Many thanks.

Pammie*

FAS

Those estimated MHR's (220-age as an example) are just that a general guide.
My highest i've seen was 186 at the end of a hard session got a bad case of stitch slowed down and saw 186 on monitor.
Tried a mhr test but only got 184.
Was told it is better to test it out at a race or during a speedwork session (when running with others) The running with others will keep the momentum going till the finish line. So you'll not slow down
Trouble is i tried this in my last race only forgot to look at watch as i was nearing the finish
Awww well maybe next time.

Tigger's mate Roo

Mike, please could you clarify about HR %s. Do you mean % of max, or of working range (ie max-resting) using formula % of Working HR + resting pulse, which I gather is more relevant. This actually makes a big difference to what we are talking about. eg for me 70% of max = 114, whereas calculated as (% of WHR) + RHR = 125.
Thanks

Hilly

Annabelle-put your best race time or the time you want to achieve for FLM into the following calculator and it will tell you the paces to run your different sessions.


mcmillan

Tigger's mate Roo

Pammie, re max HR. If 186 is the highest you've seen at the end of a race and 184 on the test, when you were feeling good and fresh otherwiseand it felt as hard as poss. , that's pretty similar, and effectively your max. Even if you get it one or two beats higher it wouldn't make much difference to working %s. If you look at graphs of HR to effort, the graph goes up steeply at first, then levels off dramatically as you near max, so you'd only get it a beat or two higher, if at all. What makes far more diffrerence if how %s are calculated (as in my question to Mike above).

Karl Corpez

Mike.

I am aiming for a good run in the county cross country at the beginning of January and then upping the training again for a spring marathon, probably London now there is no more Tower of London!

Do you think splitting the winter season in two is like pulling up the potatoes to see how they are getting on, and is detremental to a good spring marathon?

Karl.

Unknown

Thanks Hilly, very useful.

Pammie*

Thanks TmR that sounds about right.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Pammie - but how old are you? I cant see me getting up to 186! Also my HM does seem to fluctuate quite a lot. And it isnt me! It seems to suddenly for no apparent reason - could traffic interfere? Also - I'm sure that it has been asked but tis cardiac drift - please can someone clarify exactly what it is - I think it is keeping the HR the same while running at same pace & the drift is if you dont - is that right.
Enjoy your Sunday runs all - anything to avoid shopping

Pammie*

FAS

I'm 36
MAX HR are strange things because a high max rate (or even a low one) doesn't guarantee sporting greatness (if only)

I don't know any details (but i'm sure someone else might) but they are probably champions with high Max's as well as low Max's.

Loads of things will effect fluctuation of Heart rates usually dogs of leads coming towards me, as well as electric pylons railway crossings and so on.
If you know its not you and its just some external force just ignore it and it should settle down

Cardiac drift as i understand it is that after 20 minutes running your HR is pretty stable till the end of run. If it is more than 10-12 beats then it isn't.
But i know some people are stricter about this. I try to keep to a 5 beat band (though it didn't work yesterday). Though on hills it will rise more so i don't worry about those as it usually settles down once i reach the top.

Mmmmm a sunday run or a traipse round the shops. I know what i'd pick.

Hilly

FAS-I've never seen my hr go above 171, which I believe is quite low. My RHR is 42 so it still gives me a good range to work with. I'm not terribly scientific with my training anyhow!:o) I only wear my hrm occasionally to check that I'm not overdoing what I believe is an easy/steady pace and I've just started wearing it in races to analyse the data afterwards:o)


I spent the day yesterday wrapping, which is nearly as bad as xmas shopping!

Today I rewarded myself though with 19 miles all off road. It sure was cold today though with the wind whipping off the sea-brrrr!

Will do a 5 mile recovery run later-hopefully!

[Deleted User]

Thanks Hilly & Pammie - my RHR is 40 so maybe that's why it doesnt go that high. I ran with a group this am doing 15+ after which I felt fine - but if I had known that I had to do another 4, I dont think I could. I did do an hour & 20 yesterday with 1 hour at 148 HR which is actually 85% of MHR (according to 220-age calculation)So I'm a bit behind the schedule, but did 65 miles last week which is higher than I've done since I ran in the 80s. Most importantly - I dont feel tired the rest of the time despite increasing gradually over the last month. I used to feel tired all the time. So just perhaps trying not to train hard all the time works.It is really good to pick up little bits of info - tho am stil a bit confused.

Pammie*

FAS i'm still learning too

Hilly lol
and i quote
"Today I rewarded myself though with 19 miles all off road. "

Hilly

I always like to reward myself with things I enjoy Pammie.

Therefore, I had a lovely big jam filled muffin followed by a 5 miles recovery run this afternoon too!:o)

Red Haired Girl

FAS, 148 would 85% of your Maximum heart rate not your working heart rate.

I think someone has asked Mike to clarify if he means Max HR or Working Heart Rate.

Working Heart rate is

(Max HR - Resting Heart Rate) x desired % + Resting Heart Rate

So to hit 85% you would have to run at

(174-40) x 85% + 40 = 154 Beats per minute

So, to do the calculation backward todays 148 bpm would be ?????

(174-40) x?? + 40 = 148

no sorry can't do the calculation backwards but I'm sure someone can help. Somewhere around 80% I guess, so no need to slow down massively to stick at 70-75%

Hilly

If I run by heart rate, which isn't very often I tend to go by WHR. Have to admit though that heart rate training is a bit new to me, having always ran by how I felt or average pace on my sdm.

[Deleted User]

Very, very interesting reading.

I'll be a V45 next year. The training milage looks possible (I am at 80 to 90 miles per week at the moment) but what worries me about marathons is the stress that it puts on your body running a competitively fast 26 and a bit miles. It is pushing your body to its very limits, draining and depleting everything to.... empty.

It worries me considerably just how vunerable the boby becomes when you have given your all. How can we boost our bodily systems so that we stay free from illness's immediately after energy draining hard efforts (this could be applied to long runs too I guess).

Soda.

[Deleted User]

Sodahead, eating well to replenish glycogen, Vit C, echinacea and zinc.

Tigger's mate Roo

Also most sources re injury say it is much more likely to happen during the high mileage training than in a one-off race

- and proper rest/ recovery after the race!

BrynRunning

Mike, I was wondering if you could give me some advice, I've just turned 17 and my ambition is to eventually move up to the marathon at least semi-seriously, as you've mentioned earlier it takes 2-3 years before anyone hits peak performance at the marathon, what sort of age should I be looking to move up?

Currently I ran a 4:30 1500 which needs revising, a 36minute 10k, 1:00:42 for 10 miles and do about 35-40miles a week including one speed session and just came 46th in the Southern Intercounties U-17 XC race. Only been running semi-seriously for about a year but don't really have the massive natural talent that people seem to need. When would you say it might be advisable for me to start moving up and what sort of standard could I reach if at the time I was doing 100 mile + weeks regularly. Obviously everyone's different and you don't know me but I was wondering what your opinion was?

Twin Dad Twice

Hello all - this is fascinating stuff!

I've run a marathon PB of 3hr46min (from this year at Rotterdam) and I'm aiming to get this down to 3:30 in next year's FLM. My 10K PB is 44:28, so it's not impossible. Still, it's a big shout I know, but I'm willing to put in the hard work and give it my best shot.

A quick question re: heart rates.

I'm currently running in the mid-high 40s each week with a max long run of 16miles. I've built up over the last 13 weeks and the plan is to gradually increase to around 55/60 mpw.

I'm keeping religiously within the 145-150 BPM range for my runs, which equals c.65% WHR / 72% MHR. What I'm finding strange is how hard this effort feels - am I right in think that it's because I'm running aerobically at this pace and not anerobically? Also, the pace I can manage at this pace can vary quite widely from day-to-day even over the same route: eg - 10.30m/m on Saturday, 9m/m on Sunday. Any explanation Mike/anyone? Thanks in advance!

(In case it's useful: My max HR recorded during interval sessions is 202 BPM and I hit 192 BPM at the end of the Nike 10K - at 5:48 pace - and averaged 178 BPM throughout, averaging just over 7m/m. Resting HR is around 44.)

Mike Gratton 2

Lots of questions this weekend - hope again I don't miss anything.

Trouty, If you have a couple of overuse injuries I would suggest you don't try to increase until you have them sorted out. Keep the pace down and try to run on flat routes avoiding cambers.

Hilly, I think I'll start putting the second run each day in brackets so that it is clear these are the ones not to do if worried about the volume of training.

FAS, I think you answered your own question re. base training. I used to run all races as hard as I could and they would count as quality training in base training periods, so 1 speed session & 1 race = 2 speed sessions in a week. The hill circuits I would put in the meium effort bracket and are a precursor to the faster runner later.

Bryan, At your age and development I would say concentrate on doing what you are doing now - XC is a fantastic background to endurance running when you are older and good leg speed will stant you in good stead. I was English Schools 5,000m Champion in my last year at school and I think it gave me the ability to get the most out of the track sessions for the marathon when I was older. When you are 19/20 gradually increase your running for 2 to 3 years so that you run your first marathon when you are 21-22 at the earliest. The peak ages for marathon runners seem to be 25 to 30 yrs (my best was when I was 29). Sorry about that all you Vets!!

Mike Gratton 2

Heart Rate - now there's a can of worms.

I do mean % of working heart rate. For most people 220 minus age for men & 226 minus age for women will be more or less OK. A small % of people may be high beaters so if you find running speeds feel much too slow calculating from these figures you may have a higher max and will need to do a maxHR test.

The calculation I use for simplicity is from Polar (Karvonen Equation) and for me would be:

Max HR: 220 - Age(220-50) = 170
Minus Resting HR (50) = 120 = working HR

70% of Working HR = 84

Add back in the resting heart rate (84+50) thus 70% training level is 134.

It is important that you add back in the resting HR.

One important measurement is your threashold level, which will be around 85%. For most people it tends to be your half marathon racing speed - so you could work out your threashold HR level by wearing a HR Monitor during a half marathon and taking the average HR.

Mike Gratton 2

Rough training levels using % HR would be:

50-60% Very easy/Recovery sessions
60-70% Aerobic Conditioning - early season training.
70-80% Steady State - fastest pace you should run for longer runs.
80-85% Threashold pace - fast continuous running 20 to 40 min efforts.
85-90% Anaerobic running - interval running producing lactic acid, efforts lasting 3 to 5 mins.
90%+ Fast intervals of 1 to 3 mins.