Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

Hilly

Thanks Mike and BR. I intend to follow your schedule Mike as best I can as I've mentioned and will increase as best I can over the coming months to hopefully reach 90 miles. I'm thinking I got to 84 miles last time, so it shouldn't be too difficult as long as I don't get injured!

Like the last time there's days when I'm shattered and other days when I feel refreshed. This time of year I believe is the most difficult for most people building up for FLM and not just because of commitments, but the cold dark mornings and dark evenings too that decrease motivation:o)

[Deleted User]

It is quite reassuring to read your post Hilly. I have increased gradually to 65, (but actually 80 miles over 8 days) but still think I've overdone it cos I'm feeling really tired. As you say - this weather doesnt help. The last 2 mornings - just couldnt face going out. Then yesterday, could only manage 50 mins at lunchtime really slowly & weights later on. Today - I dont think I'll run at all - have a rest day today rather than tomorrow. I think the 15 hills on Tues was too hard - or I did them too hard. It's annoying when you think that you are being sensible, then you suddenly find yourself really tired & realise you've overdone it.
It might also help if I make a decision on whether to do a marathon! - I'll decide this weekend definitely! I think I'm getting carried away reading of the mega mileage that some of you seem to do without adverse effects (or so it seems)

SHADES

I've also upped my mileage, (will reach 80mpw this week), like hilly, some days I'm really tired but the next morning I feel fine again. It's not my legs that get tired it's more that sort of tiredness when you've been out in the fresh air for a long time!

Duck Girl

Oddly enough I prefer running in the dark. Sometimes I'll even wait till it gets dark because I know I'll do a better time then.
Do a mixture of roads, busy streets & unlight bike paths, & wear reflectives & sometimes a headlamp. Just feels so much more of an exciting challenge to be doing the strange hours

Mike Gratton 2

Hi FAS, You are the best judge of you, so you need to adjust the training to how you feel - you shoul (will be) tired, but you should not be shattered or suffer from sore legs constantly. If you do then you are either training too fast or have increased too quickly and need to back off a bit.

I remember Brendan Foster saying that at this time of year when he was on big mileages it was an effort to get up to turn the TV on to a different programme - yet when you go for a run everything clicks into gear and you feel fine again.

F.oggy

Thanks Mike, I will increase my mileage how you suggested,then see how I cope with 50 mpw before increasing any further.

[Deleted User]

Bryn - in answer to your question above, no.

The BAF introduced junior road running champs, and these were held in 93,94,96 and 97, but then the BAF went bust in 98 and uk:a haven't continued with them.

On the track in the summer there is a 5k for junior men at the AAAs, which are normally held at Bedford. The standard is tough (sub 16 if I remember) but that's a good target to aim for, and if you don't mind coming last they won't reject you. Running at the AAAs on the track (I made the standard once in my last year as an under 23) is well worth doing, since you may never make the senior standard, and it does have the feel of running at a big event (and I didn't even come last! - my biggest worry going into it).

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mike - I decided to take today off running in the end & I'm glad I did. I left early and when I got home cycled a few miles to my Leisure Centre, swam 80 lengths, mixture of crawl & breaststroke & really stretched everything & cycled home again. Sometimes you feel tired when you are stuck to a desk which I was today. Also, I think I overdid it on leg extensions yesterday so quads a bit sore. Already looking forward to tomorrow which would have been a rest day, but now I dont have to - yippee!! I have a very tough 7 mile race on Sunday, so having a day off isnt going to do any harm. Do all serious athletes get obsessed by miles?

Hilly

FAS-sounds like my kind of rest day!:o)

I didn't feel like I wanted to run after work today. I had a pig of a day, then just wanted to crawl into bed, but I'd arranged to run with a friend. We did 10 miles, which was a good steady pace, then did 10*100m strides of between 17-19 secs average hr 152 (74%whr)at the track and was glad I did run as it really loosened up my legs, oh and made me feel less tired!

As you say Mike sometimes you can feel tired, but when you get out there to run it feels ok!

I've not had a rest for 19 days, but am planning one for Saturday as I'm travelling to Wales.
Boxing Day I've got a 10k race, final one of the year, so would like a good time. However, I don't want to reduce the trainig too much, any suggestions?

Hilly

Read training for trainig!

Twin Dad Twice

A quick festive training question for you Mike!

I'm spending Christmas & New Year down under in Perth (with my girlfriend's family). I think it might be a bit difficult (!) to slope off for a long run, so what should I do?

I reckon I should be okay for an hour most days, which at 65-70% WHR should be around 7 miles, so maybe 35 miles total for each of the 2 weeks.

Do you think this will be okay? I'm thinking of keeping the pace the same, bearing in mind the heat out there, and using these reduced mileage weeks as recovery weeks. Is this a good idea? I'm running 5 days-a-week at the moment - been thinking of adding a 6th day of training, would this be a good time to do it?

Cheers Mike - all advice most greatfully received!

(BTW - The last 3 weeks have totalled 42, 40 & 48, all pretty steady stuff, with long runs of 16, 14 & 16. No major probs/tiredness...touch wood!)

Mike Gratton 2

Training for week 3 – This week starts to slacken off for the Christmas period so can be taken as a recovery week after a tough introduction to higher levels of training.

If you’re on once a day I have put the runs that can (should) be left out in brackets.


Hard Training

Sun 19 Dec: am 2 hrs steady, pm (30 mins easy)
Mon 20 Dec: am (30-40 mins steady), pm 1 hr steady
Tues 21 Dec: am (30-50 mins), pm Tempo Run – 40 mins @ 85% (half marathon pace), 10 mins warm up/10 mins cool off jogs.
Wed 22 Dec: am (30-40 mins steady), pm 1 hr steady.
Thu 23 Dec: am (30-40 mins), pm 30 mins hill circuits – 10 mins warm up/cool down jog
Fri 24 Dec: am 30-40 min steady pm office drinks/last minute shopping
Sat 25 Dec: am 30-40 min trying out the new GPS/Shoes/thermal top! Pm: Christmas dinner/pud/champagne – sleep in the arm chair.

Mike’s Elite Training

Sun 19 Dec: am 22 miles steady, pm 6 miles easy
Mon 20 Dec: am 5 miles steady, pm Hill session – 10 x 400m, jog back recovery – 15 min warm up/cool down jog.
Tue 21 Dec: am 5 miles steady, pm Club run around town – 5 – 5.30 miles at times!
Wed 22 Dec: am 5 miles steady, pm 15 miles steady
Thu 23 Dec: am 5 miles steady, pm 8 miles steady
Fri 24 Dec: am 5 miles steady, pm 8 miles Fartlek
Sat 25 Dec: am 8 miles easy Cross Country.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS
MIKE

Mike Gratton 2

Hilly, just take Xmas Eve & Day as a good reason to slacken off for the Boxining day run. Instead of doing the hill circuits on Thur do 10 x 1 min at 5 km pace just to sharpen up a bit.

T&T Man, If you can get out for an hour a day you won't lose any fitness. Maybe make use of the hot weather to put a bit of pace into the runs to spice them up a bit, on a coule of the runs maybe do 12 to 15 x 1 min fast/1 min slow, or a pyramid on time 1 min fast/1 min slow, 2 mins fast/2 slow, 3 mins fast/3 mins slow - up to 5 mins, then come back down in stages to 1 min fast/1 min slow. Watch out for dehydration from the long flight and the fact you need to acclimatise, so don't do much for the first few days.

Tigger's mate Roo

You don't seemed to have slackened off, so why should we be encouraged to ? (especially when it is time of work for most of us)!

Duck Girl

Hilly - where are you racing boxing day?
I'm South Wales (coast between Cardiff & Swansea) & looking for stuff over the Christmas holidays.

BrynRunning

Thanks MikeB, I'll have a look into that. 17:30 to sub-16 in about 2 years I've got for junior men. It'll be tough...but fun Actually I need to get a 5k race in at some point as 17:30 was my summer time and since then I've put in more quality training in the last 5 months than in the rest of my life combined

Hilly

Thanks Mike as helpful as ever!:o)

Duck Girl-I'm racing the 'Round the Lakes' 10k in Poole, Dorset. A bit of a journey from Wales-about 3.5hrs:o)

[Deleted User]

Bryn - last friday of the month new years eve in Hyde Park?

If I'm fit it will be my return to racing.

Karl Corpez

MB-I hope all goes well and you are back racing well soon. We needed you yesterday at the South of the Thames, unfortunately DK pulled a calf and RB arrived late because of an accident on the A3, I thought I was going to be late at one point because of it.

KC

Hilly

Today on my long run Mike, which was all off road I suffered with a real burning in my thighs on the steep hills (these are hills like climbing a ladder and go on for 100-200metres) that made me want to rub them. I've done this route loads of times including last weekend and haven't felt that kind of burning sensation before. Do you know why this would be? I did feel a bit leg tired, but did have a rest day yesterday. Thanks!

[Deleted User]

Karl - I heard RW and DK were the last two scorers! Well done for a good individual performance, probably your best of the year so far? If you compare where those people were at the "Junior" champs it looks a much better run.

I need to make sure this virus is completely gone before I try racing / running hard. The marathon is still four months away, no point wrecking it now.

I'll probably do the Southern XC (but not peak for it - no point if you're as bad at that course as I am!) but not the National. What are your plans?

Hilly

What sort of virus have you got MikeB?

[Deleted User]

My doctor didn't offer that much of a diagnosis.

"Oh, you're throat is very red, yes you've got a virus"

Had about two weeks of feeling pretty rotten but temperature never exceeded 100F. This was until a week ago.

Since then my RHR has been up about 10 beats, but nothing else seems wrong.

Not really sure how long to leave it before going back to the doctor. Any online diagnoses greatly appreciated!

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Tiggers Mate, The elite schedule is there for you to do if you want to maintain a higher level - you have the benefit of knowing that that schedule had a very high success rate. The Hard training schedule respects the fact that most people following it will have made a big jump up in mileage, so a tactical easier week over Xmas may help before moving on....the week between Xmas and New Year will not be soft!

Not sure about the buring thighs Hilly, would usually be associated with lactic acid burn - did you run the hills harder than usual?

Hilly

I'm not able to offer any help on diagnosis I'm afraid. Virus' are a right pain as there's not much one can do apart from rest, eat well and wait for them to go, or so I've been told. Do you take any vitamin supplements? Not sure if it would help, but I always think anything is worth a shot. I just like to think I'm actively doing something to rid my body of illness. Hope everything is back to normal soon for you!


MikeG-I've just finished reading Paula's book and am really surprised by the amount of injuries she suffers. I know I shouldn't be as she puts in phenominal training, but even with the level of support from expert physio's etc, she still has some awful injuries.

Hilly

Not sure if I ran the hills harder than usual, but maybe as my legs were tired putting in the same effort on the hills made it feel harder.

I still managed to do a recovery run last night making 25 miles for the day. Very pleased with that!:o)

Mike Gratton 2

Paula trains exceptionally hard - even for an elite runner, which, I guess, is why she was able to shatter the marathon records. Unfortunately, I think her running style may be the cause of some of the injuries, but it is because of the back-up she has that she has been able to sustain such high levels of training despite them.

MikeB, as hilly says, you just have to it and wait for it to run its course and the HR to get back to normal, then start off with some easy running until you feel you're back to normal.

Mike Gratton 2

Sounds like a build up of fatigue Hilly, I think it should go once you have adjusted, but keep an eye on how tired you are getting.

Tigger's mate Roo

Thanks, Mike. Yes I am aiming at somewhere between what you actually did and the schedule you suggest, and like you say, it is next week when I'll have loads of time, and may aim for 100 miles (??)(83 last week, but probbly a little less this)

Hilly, this may be very silly, but the burning wasn't just cos the weather was so very cold ?

[Deleted User]

Just thought I'd pop over from the Base Training thread and say hello. Only on 45 miles/week at the mo, but find this stuff interesting.


Carry on!


I'll continue lurking