Shades Marathon Training

SHADES

Ian - I think you'll enjoy being a member and representing your new running club.   There are some great clubs with interesting histories.



Big G/Jelly - I've just been looking at DD for next year, time limit now 6:50 to allow for the extra distance and I see they've removed the cut off time at marathon point and replaced it with a cut off time at 29 miles of 5:48 instead.  You two won't have any problem making those times

I think that's good for me as will keep me focussed for longer, this year I was so intent on just making the marathon cut off that I didn't have much left once I'd made that cut off, we'll see.


Just had an email from Newport marathon, says race is already 80% full.

Jelly

I couldn't remember last years cut offs and find it hard to judge/comprehend as nothing to compare it to, totally respect the challenge. It's reassuring to hear you say about our times, thank you  I've been looking at fellow club members times out of interest. 

SHADES

Jelly - there is nothing to compare it too.  But you might find it useful nearer the time to get hold of the split times for the last couple of years so you can assess by the runners you know the sections of the course are fastest/slowest and will also give you a guide to how you'd want to pace it.

Jelly

My Newport email ended up in my Junk. 

Ian5

Shades-Thats an impressive fill rate already.
6 miles for me today,felt pretty good.1 thing I've found is last week and this I'm a bit lost without a plan.ive pretty much been running to a plan since January for different races,and my new one doesn't start until December so I sat there this morning not knowing how far to run.

Big_G

Shades, just a quick one about the elites.  Did you see that Jonny Mellor hasn't been selected for the Commonwealth Games, even though he was well inside the required qualifying time?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/41747851

Steve Way was on MarathonTALK recently talking about it, and in summary, there's effectively a certain amount of places available for the whole team (75), not just the marathon team.  And someone somewhere decided not to take Jonny, but decided that a team of 6 in the relay was a good use of the available space.  In theory, it means that two of that relay team are on the plane but may not compete at all, but they left Jonny at home.  I know I am more interested in the marathon than the relay, but it does seem very odd and very discouraging for the people coming up the marathon ranks.  Of course, Steve Way went to the Commonwealths that year with a comparatively slow 2:17 (Mellor went under 2:13), but that was mainly (according to him) because they had more space in the team in that competition.  He's disgusted they've left Mellor out.

Cal Jones

Big G - yeah, unfortunately tattoo barcodes don't scan. Never had anyone try to present one but any tattooist will tell you that.
Also, agree with Shades. Warm bath after a long run. I normally can't be arsed with baths but I actually crave one after long training runs. It really helps relax the aching muscles, whereas a cool/cold bath would make me tense (and bloody miserable). I whack a good scoop of Epsom Salts in there too (bought an industrial 20kg sack of it off Amazon a while back. Lugging that upstairs was fun!)

Shades - DD is going to be longer? Erk! I have said I'd like to have a stab at it, but not next year since I'll be having another go at Liverpool, which is late May. Hopefully injury-free this time.

A bit happier today. Back and hip less sore (obviously yesterday's mile did no harm). I was a bit tired and hungry this morning so I didn't go out until 12, and did two miles (with a bit of walking either side). It's kind of weird - it feels like I am learning to run again. I obviously went a bit too quickly as I notched up two sub-10s, but I definitely felt a bit puffed and tired during the second mile so I should have run more slowly. I'm finding it hard to judge speed at the moment. Since I'm more conscious about the way I'm running it is less automatic. Looking at the Garmin stats, my stride is a few centimetres longer - closer to what I'd at a faster pace. I'm wondering if that might be down to all the bum exercises I'm doing!

Ian5

Big G- I seen that last week about Mellor,don't know how it ties in with the aim for 5 Englishmen to be under 2:14 by 2022 games,yet they may not be allowed to go judging by what's happened with Johnny.
https://www.englandathletics.org/england-athletics-news/marathon-development-opportunities-for-athletes-and-coaches

Big_G

Ian, yeah, it's all a bit odd.  For info, if you want to hear Steve Way's thoughts on it, you can listen from around 28:00 here.
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/7/9/7/79765de0af7bbb2b/MT407.mp3?c_id=17444099&expiration=1509462260&hwt=10aa036dc88f352399d338c6c16e01fe

steven renton

Ian- running downhill is difficult for everyone keep at it and I'm sure you'll feel the benefit soon.

Cal- so good to hear you felt better today. It's been a long tough time for you lately however you are strong therefore you will get there I'm sure.

Big G- had a look online for the Garmon 230 your right some good prices out there. As you have one can you use the chest strap heart rate monitor with it as I already have one with my 310xt.

Shades- I notice the 310xt for £110 a very good price and I do have a soft spot for this watch. 

I done a master reset on my watch which appears to have done the trick I will find out when I go for a run tomorrow if it's still working. I do think it's only a matter of time before it packs in completely so I will do some research on both watches once I finish my night shifts on Friday.

Big_G

Steven - I have an older style HR strap and it pairs fine with the Garmin 230.  My HR strap came from a Garmin 305, which is quite an old watch now.  If it's any use, the model of HR strap I have is HRM1G, so you can check which one you have.  Before I bought mine, I did check on DC Rainmaker, (which incidentally is the place to go for reviews of gear), and it was confirmed on there that my strap would pair with the watch, and it did.

For info, there is a more expensive Garmin 235 which has an optical HR monitor, but I read some reviews and they're not as accurate.  The 230 and 235 are the same watch other than that, so I opted for the cheaper one and just use my existing strap.

steven renton

Big G- thanks for that I will give my one a look and I will give DC Rainmaker a check in regards reviews. When I previously looked into a new watch some months ago I checked both the 230 and 235 and did come to the same conclusion as yourself. If I buy a new one it will be between the upgraded 230 or stick to another 310xt.

Slowkoala

Cal - good to hear things seem to be getting better. And even better if your stride length has got longer! I read something that analysed the cadence and stride lengths of the 10,000m world champ athletes and it put Mo’s success down to his stride length. It all counts!

Thanks for al the nice messages re my race. Ian - I just got a trophy for being 1st. They gave the age group trophy to someone who was over 5 mins behind me. MF - it was just a course PB for me for that race, not for the race overall, but it does make me feel tempted to do London next year! But I’m going to be strict with myself. I don’t think the champs entries have opened yet.
 
I was a bit knackered last night so gave my fitness class a miss. I also seem to have picked up pain on the sole of my left foot. Had it for almost a week - think it might be due to the backwards running we did in the fitness class last week! Two consecutive days racing won’t have helped. I seem to feel it more when waking than running. Does this sound like plantar fasciitis?! At least that’s a brand new injury for me!

Guinness and Garmins

Only had half an hour to spare tonight, so thought I would try 3 miles at what feels a stronger pace, avgd 8.19/mile. Pretty happy with how it went,couldn't have managed much further at that pace though. Hard to think that this was once my conversational pace,hopefully will get back there some day.

All this talk of baths is putting me in the notion. Used to be partial to be a post long run cold bath,those days are long gone. 

BigG-listened to that marathon talk episode, ridiculous to think he wasn't selected. I think it speaks volumes to their attitude towards the marathon. Considering his qualifying time I think would have got him 6th in Glasgow. Apparently English athletics have a goal to have 5 men under 2.14 by 2022. Would make you wonder why? To not select them for a major championship?...rant over 

SHADES

Jelly - I'm fortunate that my email provider doesn't do that to me.

Ian - maybe you need to write yourself a little plan for November just to see you through until the big plan starts 

Big G - yes I saw that about Jonny Mellor and I thought how unfair, but then I read the whole story.  Unfortunately it's all about funding, they can only take 75 and a much better chance of a medal in the relays than in the marathon.  I hate relays and never watch them and I would prefer that we fielded a team for the marathon.  If Mo Farah was prepared to do the marathon then I'm sure Jonny would have got a place plus a couple more to make up a team as I believe there's a team medal in the marathon.   I can understand how frustrating it must be but getting the qualifying time is not a guarantee of a place, as many runners in the track events will tell you.  Perhaps Jonny should delve into his family history and see if he can in the future represent another country, Scotland or Wales perhaps.   But in the past marathon runners have not been selected for the Olympics either if not considered a medal hope.   England have stated that they plan to have a full marathon team for 2022 but that's no consolation for Jonny now.   It might be that Mo has agreed to run in 2022 and so lead the team.

Cal - I remember you getting that big bag of Epsom Salts, lugging it up the stairs probably didn't help your back!    I stick to Chanel No 5 for my post long run/race bath.

DD is 2 miles longer in 2018, is reverting to the original route for it's 20th anniversary.   But in DD an extra couple of mile is not an issue, it's the hills, there is an extra few feet of climb next year but then a gentle downhill to the finish.  As far as I know it will go back to 32 miles in 2019.

Good that your back and hip a little better.

steven - hope the Garmin is OK, but eventually they do need replacing, we work them pretty hard.   The one thing I don't like about the 310XT is the HRM, I took my old one from my 305 and synced that.

SK - I think it's January for the championship entries at VLM so plenty time should you change your mind.   I would really like to see you do a different marathon next time.

You don't want PF, can take up to a year to get rid of.   Do foot exercises, flexing and pointing the foot, you may just have tweaked a tendon running backwards.

Another chilly morning here but not too cold, nice for running.

SHADES

I've just been looking at marathon results for Jonny Mellor, I wonder if he's got the qualifying time earlier in the year he might have had a better chance?  Certainly would have been more time for the selectors that favour the longer events to lobby his case, he did 2:18 at London

I see Dewi Griffiths did 2:09 in his first marathon at Frankfurt at the weekend, that puts him top of the UK list for 2017.

Big_G

SK, I really hope it's not PF!  That's one of those that runners dread  

G & G - good news that you managed to fit a run in  

Shades, regarding Mellor, according to Steve Way, the 6 people they're taking for the relays aren't running in the corresponding individual event (I haven't checked if this is accurate, but that's what he said), which seems odd, and he argues that one of them should have been swapped for Mellor, especially as in theory 2 of that relay team may not even compete.  Also, the 75 EA have been allocated actually come from Team England (who look after the whole England team  - athletics, table tennis, weight lifting etc etc), and they themselves are limited by the number of beds available at the athlete village(!!) - so it's not an EA funding issue as such.  He said that for Glasgow, EA had 130 places, which is why he got to run, as they were able to more or less take a full team for every event.  It probably is all to do with medals and medal chances when looking at the world rankings and it is complicated, but when the Brits are up against the East Africans in the marathon (who are eligible to run in the Commonwealths), probably a different approach is needed so as not to discourage the British marathoners.  Again, I'm just saying what Steve said but he argues that if EA want to encourage all the sub-2:30 runners in England to push themselves, not taking Mellor isn't really the right approach.  When he looked at the team, other than Vernon who is in the 10000m, it is very much aimed at short distance events   Mellor did appeal, but even that was turned down, but as far as I am aware the details of the appeal and the reasons behind the decision aren't available.

1SteveMac

Dewi did superb in Frankfurt, really interesting to see if Mo, Callum, Jonny and Dewi can push each other on next year to faster times!

Steven - Maybe not of interest, but I have a Garmin Forerunner 230 that I no longer use, works perfectly and is around a year old. If interested message me an offer. I haven't got around to sticking it on ebay yet!

MF - Can do body pump online....no need to go to class if you have the weights!

DOMS have gone, so another body pump done. Back to running next week though, so not sure whether to keep it up or not.

SHADES

Big G -  EA have had their funding cut so I guess they have to be more cost conscious now so probably wouldn't want more than 75 places, the travel costs alone to Australia won't be cheap.    When the games were in Scotland they could take more as less expense for travel and hotels.  England have a much higher chance of medals in the field events non-athletic events, if you look at the list of track athletes there are a lot of good athletes left out and many events we are not fielding any competitors at all.

Mellor lodged an objection which was overruled and then allegedly called the selectors 'short-sighted'.   But he should have got the qualifying time earlier, I expect 90% of the team were already selected long before Berlin marathon.  

I feel sorry for him but nobody should assume they will be selected just because they have a qualifying time.  This shouldn't disillusion him, it should motivate him to work towards getting faster and aim for qualification in the Worlds and/or the Olympics. 

They always take extra for the relays and sometimes one of those runners will step in to an individual event if someone is injured too.   

Here's the list

England athletics squad for the Commonwealth Games:

100m & relay: James Dasaolu, Adam Gemili, Asha Philip, Desiree Henry

200m & relay: Nethaneel Mitchell-Blake, Danny Talbot, Zharnel Hughes, Dina Asher-Smith, Bianca Williams

400m & relay: Matthew Hudson-Smith

110m hurdles: Andy Pozzi, Dave King

100m hurdles: Tiffany Porter

400m hurdles: Jack Green, Meghan Beesley

4x100m relay: Harry Aikines-Aryeetey, Ashleigh Nelson, Corinne Humphreys

4x400m relay: Dwayne Cowan, Rabah Yousif, Martyn Rooney, George Caddick, Emily Diamond, Finette Agyapong, Anyika Onuora, Perri Shakes-Drayton, Margaret Adeoye, Cheriece Hylton

800m: Kyle Langford, Elliot Giles, Andrew Osagie, Shelayna Oskan-Clarke, Adelle Tracey

1,500m: Charlie Grice, Sarah McDonald, Jessica Judd, Katie Snowden

5,000m: Laura Weightman

10,000m: Andy Vernon

Marathon: Alyson Dixon, Sonia Samuels

3,000m steeplechase: Rosie Clarke, Iona Lake

20k Race Walk: Tom Bosworth, Callum Wilkinson, Gemma Bridge

High jump: Robbie Grabarz, Tom Gale, Chris Barker, Morgan Lake, Bethan Partridge

Pole vault: Adam Hague, Luke Cutts, Holly Bradshaw, Lucy Bryan, Molly Caudery

Long jump: Greg Rutherford, Dan Bramble, Lorraine Ugen, Shara Proctor, Jazmin Sawyers

Triple jump: Nathan Fox, Nathan Douglas, Ben Williams

Shot put: Rachel Wallader, Amelia Strickler

Discus: Jade Lally

Hammer: Nick Miller, Taylor Campbell, Sophie Hitchon

Decathlon: Ashley Bryant, John Lane

Heptathlon: Katarina Johnson-Thompson, Niamh Emerson, Katie Stainton

Big_G

Shades, I wonder if there's some "Relay World" forum or RelayTALK podcast that is saying the opposite to what I'm saying

Seeing that list is a bit strange.  If I'm reading that correctly, there is only one person who is doing both the 400m individual event and the relay, but an extra 4 men and 6 women only doing the relay.  That's a lot of pressure of them - I hope they don't drop the baton in the first heat!

It's probably mainly a funding and medal hunting decision.  I don't think it will disillusion Mellor - he was on MarathonTALK a couple of weeks before this decision, and from memory he didn't really mention the Commonwealths, apart from that he had done all he can.  His main focus was London next year, and the next Olympics.

SHADES

Big G - I think they can opt in a runner from another event to cover any shortage in the relays, not unusual for a 400m hurdler to do the 400m relays, or even an 800m runner or 200m runner.

When these guys start out on their athletic career they often take part in lots of different disciplines before specialising in one particular one so are quite adaptable.

There's quite a few names on there I don't recognise, the Commonwealth Games are often used for youngsters doing their first championship event.  

Steve - I agree, it's going to make marathon running much more competitive now that we have some world class runners coming through.

Bodypump is probably the fastest way to do a tough weight session, one hour and I think it's over a thousand reps, I'm sure that's what the poster in our Pilates studio says. 

I'm thinking of going back to Bodypump for the winter just once a week.

SHADES

Marathon List 

13th March
Enigma - Milton Keynes
Big G - PB 3:54:17   

2nd April
Manchester
Cal - PB 4:29:29  
Ian5 -  4:29
Steve -  PB 3:10:15  
NickW2 - PB 3:24:59  

9th April
Paris
SuzSaville82 - PB 4:26  
Rotterdam
Emmy 4:42
Brighton
Louey  - 4:24:45

23rd April
London
Big G - 4:00:59
Iain Love - 2:57:49
Slowkoala - 3:12:43
Southampton
Jugula - 4:21

29th April
Plym Trail
Big G - 4:29
Shades - 5:01

7th May
Great Welsh
Shades - 4:44:12

13th May
Marathon de Blaye 
mamafox - 3:40 - 3rd place and she did win the wine  

14th May
Hereford
Shades - 4:45:59

21st May
Worcester
Shades - 4:53:46
Leiden
Big G - 3:54:25
Emmy - 4:42:59 (including beer stops)

27th May
Saturday Night
Iain - 3:20:45 Winner   

28th May
Liverpool
Cal - 4:37:52
Dorchester
Shades - 4:56:16

3rd June
Dartmoor Discovery
Shades  - PB 6:32:17 

11th June
Yeovil Marathon
Shades - 5:13

15th June
Dorney Lake 6 Hour
Shades - 5:29:59   

18th June
Enigma Clueless
Big G - 5:09:58 

24th June
Giantshead
Emmy - 5:56

24th/25th June
Harp 24
mowzer - 28 miles

25th June
Boddington Marathon
Shades - 4:59:57

2nd July
Wirral Ultra
Ian5 - PB 7:01 

9th July
LDWA From Here to There
mowzer 9:06

15th July
Chiltern Challenge 50km
Steve - PB 5:06 

23rd July
Ironman Marathon
Iain - 3:29:54

29th July
Enigma Planes
Big G - 4:35

6th August
Gloucester
Big G - 3:58:10

12th August
SVP 100km
Steve -  PB 12:22 

13th August
54321
mowzer - 7:50

Isle of Man
Shades - 4:59:06

3rd September
City to Sea 
Big G - 5:28:53

14th September

Dorney Lake 
Big G - 4:14:12

17th September
Lancaster
Ian -  PB 3:34:41 

24th September
Loch Ness
Shades 5:06:10

1st October
Plym Trail
Big G - 4:44:59

8th October 
Chester
Ian - PB 3:31:26 

Munich
Big G - PB 3:42:38 

Yorkshire
Lily - PB 5:07:15 

15th October
Birmingham
Steve - 3:18:47
John - PB 4:43:52 
Jelly - PB 4:06:20 

Burton Bradstock
Big G - 3:54:24S
Shades - 5:15:07

22nd October
Marine Corps Marathon
Emmy - finished, waiting for Emmy to report in 

Abingdon
Big G - 3:48:44

29th October
Dartmoor Vale
Jelly - 4:11:48
Big G - 3:57:08

3rd November
Halloween 
Big G

4th November
Halloween
Big G

11th November
Phoenix Remembrance
Iain

12th November
Phoenix Jurassic
Emmy
Iain

19th November
Cornish
Big G
Shades

26th November
La Rochelle
mamafox

SHADES

Big G - I've just had an email to say Taunton marathon entries are open....it must be at least a week since you've done a race entry 

http://www.greenscreencameras.co.uk/tauntonweb/taunton marathon/index.htm

NickW2

The relay selections may well be a nod to the fact that they probably got EA a lot of funding by getting 4 of GB's 6 medals in the world champs. Taking a squad of 5 for a relay (including people doing the individual) seems reasonable, so 6 women for 4x400 seems a bit odd especially as none are doing the individual.

We do generally seem to take plenty of people who are pleased if they make the final (i.e. top 8) and not realistic medal contenders, especially in the sprints, but looking at the list above that is maybe less true this time around so maybe it's due to funding/places issues.

I always find it difficult to decide where I stand on things like this, as I know from an individual athlete's point of view, for most people it would be a great honour and great achievement to be chosen to represent your country on the world stage, but on the other hand when realistically you know you have no chance of a medal then you have to draw the line somewhere as at the end of the day someone is paying for you to be there.

Jelly

I've just entered Taunton, that's all my pre DD marathons entered. Just got to wait two weeks for DD entry. 

SHADES

Nick - it is tricky and a shame that someone with the qualifying standard can't get their moment of glory but in other countries the selection process is much harsher.   A Kenyan with a 2:03 marathon can't be sure of selection.   In the USA when they have their trials if you don't qualify at the trials you don't get to represent your country no matter who you are or your standard or what bad luck might happen to you at the trials.

Jelly - that's good news, it'll soon be the 14th November    I think DD is the only race I enter with an old fashioned cheque now.

I've just entered Connemara Ultra, good DD training.   http://www.connemarathon.com/

Big_G

Shades, I'm still trying to make Rotterdam work, but I think it's unlikely  So if I can't, I'll enter Taunton  

Nick, it's probably a decision based partly on medal hopes.  I sound like some kind of fan boy, but I'm not - it's just I think he talks a lot of sense and explains things quite clearly.  Anyway, Steve Way said he had absolutely no chance of a medal, but he qualified with a relatively slow time as a 40yo, and he went.  An upcoming Mellor was 3-mins quicker, and isn't selected, so it's not that consistent.  

As a spectator, is it all about medals though?  I'm not sure.  Probably the most exciting race I saw from a spectators point of view at the recent World Champs, was when Laura Muir raced the 1500m final.  She came fourth, but you could see she was giving it absolutely everything - I was literally screaming at the TV shouting "Come on Laura!!  Dig in!!".  Was that a failure because she didn't win a medal?  Personally, I don't think it is.  But maybe it's deemed a failure somewhere in Team GB as she was probably a medal hopeful but didn't get one.  (Let's not talk about her 5000m tactics as she arguably messed that up )

There's probably a lot that goes on behind the scenes that I don't understand, and it's probably a difficult decision based on lots of factors (funding, medal hopes, number of beds, world rankings, available spaces, etc etc).  And the English/Brits are higher up the world rankings in some of the shorter events, but that's at least partly because of the world competition in the marathons is dominated by the East Africans, so the Brits are lower in the long distance rankings because of that, so are unlilely to medal.  Even 2:09, which is astoundingly quick - is that totally world class, when the leader at somewhere like Berlin would possibly be over a mile up the road?

Anyway, I've gone off on one  

I do feel nervous about Fri/Sat.  I obviously know I can get around one marathon, but two?  Am I going to be whole world of pain on the second day, or will it be okay?  I don't know!  I am still not sure what pace to go out at either.  9s is generally quite comfortable if I'm running well (Munich was under 8:30s and felt really easy in the first half), but actively going out a lot slower than that on the first day would mean I'm out longer, which may not be the best idea?  I am currently thinking go out at around 9-9:15s on the first day, but stop for food, drink as long as necessary, and not worry about the time as such (genuinely, if the first day is over 4hrs I don't care!).  And then just do what I can on the second day.

I also hope it's "only" a marathon and not a fair bit longer.  It's a lapped course and each lap is apparently around 6-miles.  So does that mean it could be nearer 30-miles?  I really hope not!!  Or is it maybe 4.5 laps or something, to get it nearer the 26.2?  I've had a look on Strava for an example activity, but couldn't find one.  Oh well - I'll figure it out when I get there!

Just about to do a short run and I'm travelling up to Worcestershire tomorrow, for the first race on Friday  B&B emailed and they'd prefer it if I was there earlier rather than later, which suits me just fine.  I may do a short run tomorrow after the drive, but I'll see how I am.  

SHADES

Big G - is it the travel to Rotterdam that's the problem?   There's no hurry to enter Taunton, the race will fill but only due to the half marathon runners, but I've never know it fill quickly.

It has to be about medals, these athletes receive funding and they have to earn/justify that funding.  

It was great to see Steve Way in the marathon at Glasgow but he wouldn't get a place this time round.  He will probably represent England in ultra events, although I'm not sure what he's doing at the moment.

Don't be nervous about your double.   Treat each race separately exactly as you would each mile in the marathon.   Don't go out too slow in Day one, it won't save you any more energy for Day two.   I would suggest that you run the first say 5-8 mins slower than your PB so aim for 3:50ish, then let Day two take care of itself.    Take plenty of fluids too you don't want to dehydrate too much and don't forget your fuel too.  In the evening take an electrolyte drink to help restore your electrolyte balance.

When you start Day two, your legs will feel a bit tired, wipe from your mind what you did the day before and run easy until the stiffness goes, it will.  Lots of fluid and fuelling and then your legs will probably be a bit more tired in the latter miles, but you're on the home stretch then.

I just looked at the website but it's not helpful re the course as they don't appear to have any course measurement details.   I'm sure it won't be 30 miles, more likely to be 6.5ish per lap, you could always email them to check.   

Big_G

Shades, the travel is okay for Rotterdam - if I want, I can be in NL that week/weekend (I'd drive over, as I'd see friends whilst over there).  It's the hotel for the night before the race that's the problem.  They're very expensive if I want to be anywhere near the city centre, as I've left it too late now and my friends don't live near the city.  I am looking at seeing if I can stay further out, but really I don't want the hassle of catching a train in on the morning of the race.  I don't think it will happen for next year, but maybe if I get my arse in gear earlier, I can pencil it in for the year after.  I have got a well priced hotel booked for Berlin (in case I get a ballot place) so I may do the same for Rotterdam for 2019, which I can then just cancel it if I don't run the race for whatever reason.

Thanks for the advice about the double.  Would you recommend possibly doing some kind of short (i.e., 2 or 3 mile) recovery run on the evening of the first day?  Or would that not really do anything?  Maybe better just to relax or go for a gentle walk?

I was thinking about fluids.  I don't usually take it for a marathon, but I am thinking of using my camelbak so I can have water whenever I like.  I used it for C2S, and that was fine.  I'm not sure though.  It has the advantage that I could take a sarnie or something like that in the bag if I want it to nibble on.

I have packed some electrolyte tabs for the evening after the first event, so I'll definitely take them.

mowzer

Big G - I did 2 of the November Nightmare 3 years ago. It's along an old railway track so not fast. If you did sub 4 you could even win it. There are results of 2015 on the website so it's worth looking at that -and (on facebook) this year's Wed winning time was 4.05. If it's the same route it's out and back 3 times (so 6 laps). We started the first lap a bit further up the course (lap 1 for me was 7 - 9 mins quicker than lap 3) so the whole route came out as 26.5m - or thereabout. I remember that on one lap we had to stop and stand aside for the hunt, who were using the track to get to the open fields. They were all very polite and encouraging, but we didn't want to risk getting knocked over by the horses or huge hounds  I'm sure you will enjoy it - Denzil's a great guy and the events were a lot of fun.