Shades Marathon Training

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  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Big G - very odd and something the boffins will have to sort out.

    Had a similar conversation recently re the climb for Connemara Ultra as there's an error on their website re the elevation for the route.   They've plotted the course on mapmyrun and the elevation is wrong on that as it's showing less climb than the half marathon and less than the marathon when in fact you run 13.1 miles then pick up the marathon route and the last 13.1 miles is the half marathon route, so we know the website data is flawed.   So I asked others that have run it for their data and for that route Strava measures significantly less climb than the runners Garmin data.   Whether it's because the race is run over lonely moorland roads and I would suspect poor/no mobile signal in some parts so maybe what mapping data is available to Strava is limited, I don't know.   Anyway the consensus was after all this that the climb is 1600 feet and a lot of that is in two category 5 climbs in the last 13.1 miles, both Dartmooresque type hills.


  • Back in London as of just now. Passed a lot of snow on the way down but there was none in Manchester, funnily enough. Cold rain down here though.

    Big G - No tunnels (although I vaguely recall a little underpass). Going by my Garmin, it seems the first 8 miles are all uphill (though I only recall one steep bit). Miles 9 and 10 are downhill (that's where you come away from the football grounds and back to the city centre) then you start going uphill again at 12 for two miles (the long drag I mentioned in my previous post). Then it's flattish, with some mild undulations and from 21 on its downhill or flat. I've recorded it as 238m of climb.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Thanks Cal.  I don't expect I'll be racing it as such, but hopefully it'll be an enjoyable day out.  It's really sunny here, but still quite cold.

    Shades, yeah it's interesting the differences in the data.  I think if someone had a Garmin Fenix 3 or similar, I'd use that as being the most accurate.  Even Strava says that, and implies it uses data from those devices to build its own database.  Really, I just use Strava in advance to see where the hills and/or flat bits are.  I.E, I make a mental note of "the hill at x-mile, but then it flattens out", so I can better gauge effort etc.

    Just back from a slow, fairly hilly 10.5 miler.  Part of it was really muddy so I walked that bit, but I had a nice run out.  
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-All in all it took about 4 hours to sort out Inc travel,not ideal but happens occasionally.
    Big G-that's what I use route maps for,so I have an idea when to expect hills etc.when are you getting to Liverpool?is it before your WAY friends?
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - that's interesting, so you got about 800 feet of climb for Liverpool

    Big G - yes, I've registered with Strava too but only to find out elevation and where the hills are for various events as you do.   I don't download my own Garmin data.

    Ian - that's a long call out without breakfast :( 


    Ventured down town as I was flitting around running kit websites and in danger of spending more money.  Did have a look at some sale stuff but bought nothing except what was on my list and did get some great bargains on toiletries and household stuff but nothing interesting.   Wind was so cold out, much worse than when I went for my run.   I did go in Vodafone and sort out my plan out so that's sorted.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, we haven't got full plans as yet for the Liverpool weekend.  Judging from pervious WAY weekends I think Sat/Sun I may be busy, although potentially I could be free on the Friday afternoon, but I'll know more closer to the time.  Once I know a bit more, shall I let you know what I'm up to and maybe meet up for a beer/coffee if we're both around?  
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-yeah that's what I was thinking,don't want to impact on your weekend but be good to meet up if you're free at any time
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Quick question re 6 hour races,can these be used for gfa?the Liverpool one says you can run marathon distance and get a result,I've contacted the organiser,but I'm not sure if English is his first language as the answer doesn't seem straight forward.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ian - I don't think they can be used for GFA times.   Many stop at marathon distance and the distance and time is usually listed in the results but as to whether London would accept that I don't know.   When I did Dorney lake there was a guy going for a GFA time there, he got the time but I don't know if it was accepted.   A lot would depend on how the results are published

    Do you mean the 6 hour at Liverpool Uni in April?  If so they are old school and even if you do the full 6 hours your marathon time is recorded officially, but I don't know how that would be published in the results, it might just show as 6 hour time, I don't know.

    Maybe paste his reply on here and see if we can decipher it.


    Cold and icy here this morning.  The roads and pavements dried up nicely in yesterday's wind but unfortunately after a little rain it's all frozen.   Parts of my road look slippery and I don't know what the other roads are like so will postpone my run for a few hours.

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    This was the 2nd response when I asked will it be accepted for gfa

    Ian I/We can accept your enquiry for the RUN FOR HOPE
    Liverpool 6 Hours

    April 27th 2018 Friday 10am to 4 pm Course on Hope University
    Campus traffic free

    certified distance of circuit 501 meters good level surface with all
    general facilities/food and drink free

    to all runners/attendants Race Chip timed throughout by qualified
    technicians with manual hourly updates

    displayed visual on listings board/plus all major mileages attained
    by all runners

    Awards 1st 3 men/ladies 1st Relay Team Regards Stan
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    And here is the first reply i got

    Hi Ian Thanks for your email Whilst i am for accepting your entry
    into the Liverpool 6hr RUN FOR HOPE I will need some more detail

    Normally Marathon is the 1st stage in a 6 hours race followed by 30
    mile/50k etc So what is your normal time for a standard Marathon

    are you 3/4/5/6 hrs if i can help with your quest i will do my best to oblige

    Regards Stan You can ring me on 01257/415632before 9am
    Wednesday 27th Dec after 9pm 29th December
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Ha, ha, he's not foreign, that's Stan the RO, Lancashire man I think, a bit eccentric, lovely man.   He's very keen on trying to encourage runners to try and get a UK 6 hour record when doing his events, so I take it that when he says he wants to help with your quest he will provide info as you're running whether you're on your target or not.   I was on target to break my age group record but only for the first hour :(  and he was advising me as I was doing the laps.

    This is how the Chorley race results were recorded this year   https://chorley6hourroadrace.wordpress.com/results-2017/

    so it's whether London would accept that format, I'm not sure.   But when I did Chorley the timer did stand at marathon point exactly to give me my marathon time and I could have stopped there if I'd wanted to.

    So it might be that you need to ask London the question, however, bear in mind they may not be able to give you the answer you want as they haven't yet confirmed the GFA times and criteria for 2019 entries.

    I think you'd probably be better aiming for Wrexham or Manchester for your GFA attempt just to be sure.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Ian/Shades, I've nothing to add to this really.  But I am surprised that Foxy's (Enigma Running, in Milton Keynes) could technically be classed as a road marathon for 100MC purposes.  I think I am right in saying that as he's officially had his courses measured, he could class them as a road marathon, although for 100MC purposes he's chosen to have them categorised as a Trail Marathon (there are rules in the 100MC about how many road marathons a person needs to do to qualify for 100MC).  It's really confusing, as in my mind it's not a road marathon; a road marathon, to me, is something like London, Liverpool, Cornish - I.E., ran on an actual road!

    I know that's nothing to do with a 6hr race, but I think Foxy's count as GFA as they're officially measured, which is another aspect needed for GFA.  Is this Liverpool 6hr race officially measured (i.e, not just from a Garmin etc)?

    There are quite a few rules to the 100MC, and they get tinkered with every now and again.

    Someone commented that he could have his driveway measured, and do 194365 laps of it, and class it as a road marathon for 100MC purposes.....
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    I'd say looking at that,that it wouldn't be accepted,I have emailed London anyway with an enquiry about it just in case.
    I am still targeting Manchester as my main aim,but looking at races after it as back up,mk is possible but this would be a lot closer and cheaper.
    Big G-Yes it says officially measured laps under uka rules
    Out for a run before work today,I didn't think we were expecting snow here but bits around so just took it nice and steady especially around corners.

  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - Although Foxy has had his courses measured I expect under UKA rules it's multi terrain, there is some off road isn't there?   More than 10% off road makes it multi terrain in UKA rule book.  Having a course certificate doesn't make it a road event.

    Rules will differ for a road marathon re medical support and drink stations etc and they are stricter for road events and more flexible and therefore cheaper for the race organisers to opt for trail.  He won't have chosen to have it classified as trail for 100MC purposes, most runners easily acquire the required number of road marathons without any concerns at all.  Bear in mind the 100MC just make up their own rules to suit themselves and often seem a bit daft, they probably still have Snowdonia as a road marathon because it used to be one.  Also there are a few mistakes on the 100MC website and there always are about road/trail, even up to last year they had New Forest as road even though it changed about 5 years ago to 50/50 road/trail so now should be a trail event.

    Ian - yes Liverpool 6 hour is under strict UKA rules, there have been some British records broken at his Chorley event and I suspect the Liverpool course will be faster so they will hope for a couple more.   

    Big G - yes Liverpool is chip timed ,but it's an ultra event not a marathon.  Foxy's race results now appear on RunBritain so make it acceptable for GFA times, that's why he would need a course certificate to be on RunBritain results.

    Quite a few left the 100MC because of their so called 'Mickey Mouse' events, which were no more than training runs, just got out of hand.   They once had an 'event' running round somebody's garden, bear in mind none of these events were ever measured properly.   Foxy's events used to be the same and were held without any PL insurance for quite a while.  Saxon events used to be TRA but I don't think they are now and I believe no details of insurance on the website, although I'm sure they have insurance it should be mentioned.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, regarding those enigma events, I meant that for 100MC purposes they could be classed as Road, but Foxy has chosen to categorise them as Trail (well that's what he said when someone questioned him on it one time). I've done 2 of the 3 lakes, and one of those has a small amount of off-road - I'd estimate 200m per lap. 

    100MC have got a rule that a certain number of finishers need to finish an event (I think it's 15 but not sure) to try and stop people setting up an event by running around their garden with a few of their mates. A race has to be publicised in advance and results published for it to count too, which is fair enough. I'm not sure how long these rules have been in place?

    I have to say, at one recent enigma event there was a French couple, and the lady always wanted to cut corners. I lapped her twice and both times as I was approaching she was about to cut a corner by quite some margin, but looked behind and saw I was there so stuck to the path at the last moment. They've done a lot of marathons so it made me wonder how often she cuts the corners...
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Big G - 100MC like to be consistent with their classification of road/trail event, that's why some events that were classified as road but are now trail still appear as road.   They used to have a competition each year for the member that has done the most road marathons, that's why they didn't move them around.   But when Foxy started his events he had no certificate and it wasn't on a road and not measured properly and he could move the events so easier to say trail.   If he had a proper road event he would have to have the corners marshalled/taped to stop cheating, on a trail event there is more leniency about the exact course, that's why the distances will be variable.  I would speak to that runner and if necessary report the runner for taking shortcuts.  It's perfectly acceptable practice to make sure a runner doesn't short cut and call them back.


    100MC have rules now that an event must have a permit or relevant insurance, so Foxy would have had to insure his events when those rules came in otherwise nobody would run them.  They've had various rules about starters/finishers for a long time now and the advertising in advance to stop folk counting training runs.
  • Morning, folks! And a lovely sunny one, too, although it's still frickin' freezing. I had my heating set to come on twice a day when I was away but it was only 12 degrees in my flat when I got home yesterday, and has only managed to crawl up to 15.5 now (and that's with me leaving it on overnight, which I almost never do). Boiler's working and radiators are warm, plus I have double glazing, so not sure why it's taking so long.

    Anyway, I like cold and sunny runs, though I had to contend with frost and some icy patches. The ice was so thick on the puddles it looked like broken glass. I ran 7 miles today, averaging 10:25. I was all bundled up in hat, buff and big hoodie, but there were still people out there running in shorts, the fools!

    I've worked out I have 7 weeks until my first half (Hampton Court) and 14 until Manchester. :s
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - that is cold for your flat, just as well you were away over Xmas.   Maybe time to call out the plumber?  :(

    14 weeks is plenty time for your marathon training and you'll take the half in your stride during training. 
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    Cal if the top of your rads are cool you just need to vent them. my hubbie is a plumber so ask any questions. 
  • Hi Shadies, hope everyone had a good Xmas.

    Big G - a member of my club organised a track marathon for his 100th marathon which coincided with his 60th Bday. I think he had to advertise it externally and have some officials there to check everything and count laps. He got around 20 runners, but I think it still counted.

    Cal - it’s freezing here too! Set off earlier for 11 miles and it was -1 degrees. Fingers v cold despite 2 pairs of gloves. But not as bad as last night - did a club hill session and my fingers lost all feeling for the whole hour, so painful!
  • Radiators are fine. I think the issue is that my neighbours are away so I guess I'd normally get more heat from their flats. Eh, well. Off to Hot Inferno Pilates this afternoon!

    SK - not nice! I hate having cold extremities!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I did a 10-miler this afternoon and enjoyed it, although I'm afraid I didn't really do it at long run pace but a bit quicker...  Still, it was nice to get out again and I wasn't too cold, which was a bonus!

    Off out for a meal with friends tonight, so I'm looking forward to that too.
  • Hmm arm still hurts, thought it was getting better over xmas but it was worse again at work yesterday. Went to docs today and its not obviously broken but the xrays are not viewable on their system. Did have the details from A&E though which in one paragraph refers to left arm and in the next right arm..... THey also had the details from xrays there or at least the elbow one. That origianlly says i have a fracture but was later ammended to say meant to have said no fracture.

    Doc gave me prescription for co-codamol and said i could send you for x-ray as i i have hairline fracture it not always visible at first but it would be pointless as it would take several weeks so i was advised that if it still no better go back to A&E. Only question is when as its wet most of the weekend and in fact is allegedly snowing in morning but then going wet alas. I really dont want to drive to the hospital as if it is worst case they could stick a cast on it. Although i suppose i could say aye fine i'll go drive home and return later in the day after getting some shopping done first ;)
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Cal - I hope your neighbours are home soon and turn on the heating.   

    SK - you need some thermal gloves.   I have lots of pairs of gloves but only 2 pairs that are truly thermal and keep my hands warm in very cold conditions, worth getting a pair for the worst of the weather.

    Keith - that's a bit worrying, left arm/right arm/fracture/no fracture I think I would go to a different A & E next time if you have to go back.   Must be really uncomfortable though.  

    Last night when I went to bed it was very cold but forecast was to warm up during the night and it did.   It was raining when I went out for my run and a little windy, when I got down near Big G's the wind started to pick up and some really quite violent gusts.  My HRM showed my HR as really high which was odd but was explained when I saw a flash of lightening in the distance.   When I turned for home the rain turned to sheets of torrential rain and the wind was really strong but luckily behind me now and it was a full blown storm with thunder and lightening.   One road that I had run along earlier now had all their recycling rubbish blown all over the road and the boxes were sliding along the road, I ran along there with empty milk cartons chasing me down the road and I was hoping I wasn't going to get kneecapped by one of those bloody boxes.  But I'd rather run in that than the cold and ice.  
  • Shades - Er yeah the next nearest A&E is 45 miles away, this is Cumbria after all ;) Seems to be far drier now according to weather forecast but then it also not snowing heavily outsider like the forecast claims. I'll do a decent shop later or in morning then walk round to A&E so I am home at a sensible time in the daylight. Pondering Parkrun in morning and may even go for a quick run when I get home as might be an idea to see if it hurts from running. In theory Vrap is doing the parkrun tomorrow so I can naughtily ask there. Plus being she cycles a lot could perhaps say make sure they look at specific bones/parts to check for fractures.
  • SHADESSHADES ✭✭✭✭
    Keith - I forgot you lived in the wilderness up there ;)    

    Maybe you could wear a sling when resting/watching telly if that might speed the healing, I'm sure Vrap will help you, she knows her stuff.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    That's not a particularly clear diagnoses there Keith!  Hope you get it sorted out soon.

    Shades/SK, I think it was 2 years ago in the sales I bought a pair of Sealskinz gloves, which are very good.  They have some kind of membrane in them which keeps hands dry and warm.  I have a yellow par, which could be mistaken as washing up gloves, but for some reason the black ones were more expensive....

    Shades, I heard the rain, but didn't peer out, but it sounded nasty.  I have a lot of trees around my place (there are woods right next door, and a couple of large trees in my back garden) and I always worry about damage to the house in that kind of weather.

    Not sure if I'm running today or not, but will decide when I've woken up properly.  Yawning my head off this morning!
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    edited December 2017
    Keith-really hope you get sorted as that sounds pretty nasty.
    Shades-Glad you got back ok,could easily have had something hit you.
    Luckily we don't seem to get the cold as bad as you rural people,still been nippy though.Had to wait in this morning for virgin to upgrade my boxes so not been out yet and treating myself to a massage at 2 so will head out as soon as the rain passes.
  • Hello Shadies

    Just a quick update from me as absolutely nothing running wise to report.

    Finally knee recovered enough to go out for my first run since La Rochelle last Wednesday. Just an easy forest outing with the dogs but all was fine and I enjoyed it.
    Thursday disaster struck again. My horses escaped from their field and in the process of getting them back in again everything went wrong and I ended up getting badly trampled and kicked in the head.
    After a day at A+E involving all sorts of scans, xrays etc I came home with stitches in my forehead, one eye completely closed and looking like a monster. I have to wear one of those neck collar things as can't move my head and neck properly but thankfully there is no permanent damage to my skull/back etc.
    On a positive note(!) my feet/legs have come through unscathed so once my back and head are ok I can start running again.

    Can't believe this last couple of months.

    Roll on 2018!
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