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Shades Marathon Training
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Regarding my mainly downhill 6 or 7 milers an example is attached of my HR. If I take the uphill 1st mile off which is mainly walking so brings the HR average down, the remaining average is often 133-135. I do this type of run at this effort very regularly. On a flatter route with marginal walking for slopes it’s often 138-140 average. The only time I really try and stick to 142 is on the tests. I should probably clarify that when I said 137 would be tough in terms of my running style I really meant on a flat route; on downhills I find it’s easy to do under that.
Well your HR is low on that run, but that GAP pace is annoying, that's Strava assuming the world is flat I guess.
I wasn't sure if it was because I'm only running 50 miles a week? When I trained for Manchester I did close to 60 average I think, so could be something in the mileage I guess?
I am still using my optical sensor on my watch.
Anyway, 17 miles @ 9:51 for 130 bpm and then 5 miles @ 9:34 for 124 bpm on Sunday. 52 miles for the week.
I don't have a problem with the running slow part of this training, the frustrating thing is that I don't think I can slow down any more to keep my HR in the right area. I'm already running close to 10 min miles, yet my MP is 7:15 (last PB). I did 21 miles in January at 131 bpm for a minute a mile faster than on Saturday!! In July 2019 I ran my 5 mile loop at 9:25 pace for 120 bpm, so better than on Sunday.
I think that is my brain dump completed
That's okay then - I'll keep it at 195. So as you say 142 is 73% but often I'm lower than that. 135 average happens often if I take out that uphill mile and 135 is 69%. These percentages all seem in the right ballpark which led me to think I wasn't running too quickly. Good to check it though I suppose, but it does mean I can't understand the cardiac drift either!
You should be doing Hadd tests too every 6 weeks or so.
I'm not sure your weekly mileage is the cause, although you did start Hadd at a much fitter level than most runners do.
Big G - the mention I saw about cardiac drift is on page 2022, not a Gobi post but a discussion with him.
Despite the cardiac drift I am making improvements. On 18/4 my average pace was 9:30 whereas today it was 8:57 which is a good improvement I think. And I was pleased with how I did on that 5K. There’s still plenty of scope for improvement and it looks like that chap’s main point is that speedwork helped him with his times, which is what I expect I’ll introduce in August following 80/20 (or maybe more like 90/10).
I don’t understand why some find MAF so controversial. Is it really that different to lots of HR methods or other plans that say to build a base and then add speedwork? I did sense check Maffetone’s range with my Max HR and it was about right so I went with it. The main point is that easy really does mean easy, but that’s not exclusive to MAF either.
Of course I have had my frustrations but that’s nothing to do specifically with Maffetone/MAF. If I was trying to stay at 70-75% of max but not calling it MAF, I’d still have the same frustrations. Maybe that’s where some get confused as MAF (Maximum Aerobic Function) is not an abbreviation for Maffetone. I’m guilty of using them interchangeably sometimes.
But I’m happy generally, although that cardiac drift is annoying. But consistent mileage, few/no niggles to stop the mileage, generally feeling good and then some surprises like that 5K mean overall I’m happy whether I call it MAF or something else.
Rcouture - the longer runs need to be your focus once you know your marathon will go ahead, but I think you're well prepared for that with what you've been doing so far.
Yes, you can also introduce some tempo runs too. If you don't like short intervals then just do a tempo run, easy mile to warm up and another to cool down. Midsection at tempo pace, that means you wouldn't have to run it as fast as you would doing intervals as it will be a longer sustained effort. You could even do it to a target heart rate rather than aim for a certain pace starting at say 150-155 BPM just to see what that feels like.
A few others are now doing HR training too so recently we've talked a lot about it. Much more than any other thread on RW which is why I pointed you in this direction.
The original BT thread is here, all 391 pages, again a lot of waffle but also some good advice. Not sure if it's worth starting right from the beginning or just dipping in here and there.
https://forums.runnersworld.co.uk/discussion/21242/base-training/p391
Re your own HR training, whichever method you use one thing they all require is the patience of a saint. Generally you can make improvements every 3 weeks and noticeable improvements in 6 weeks. So it's worth doing either a MAF test every month or a Hadd test every 6 weeks.
Didn't know if I should just switch over to MAF? As that would give me a range of 132-142 to work with, however that would be 77-82% of max! I do wonder if the continued checking of my HR is causing it to be higher! But I know if I don't check it that's when it rises as for me there isn't really a difference in effort (pace yes), between 125 and 135 bpm.
Anyway this will be week 8 of HADD. I'll go with it again, if nothing changes I'm going to stop with HADD as I'm not enjoying my running and that is what is important.
And you know your MHR is correct.
The most important thing is that you enjoy your training so you must do what is right for you.
Steve, if you're not enjoying it, as you say it's worth changing something. When you spell it out in terms of your MP it is really stark. Even in my case, I really think of my MP as 8min/mile (3hrs30) and my 10-ishmin/mile on a standard kind of route does feel slow, and having to walk etc. Just as a matter of interest, do you sweat at that effort? I think if I was coming back bone dry I'd be changing something as well but I do actually look like I've done something when I get home, even if I generally feel pretty good.
Rcouture, I do think a block of consistent training will really help. And if training this way enables that I think that is probably the biggest advantage overall.
Returnee, welcome. I can't really help with specific posts from over the years as like you say they go back back a long time. I think one thing I have picked up in my own HR training (I've been doing it 10 weeks, but have been a runner for a few years) is that for me personally the progress is not linear. For me, I had a decent start in the first 4 weeks or so, but then the next 3 or 4 weeks at some points I felt I was going backwards, and then all of a sudden on a specific run I'd have a great run and feel like I'd taken a big step forward. And then plateau again, or even feel like I'm going backwards again. For me that is probably the most frustrating thing about it. I've been trying to find patterns in good and not so good runs over the last 10 weeks and I haven't really found any except a strong head wind definitely has a massive impact and to a lesser extent it seems (for me anyway), humidity. Also, having to walk hills I know I can easily run up was initially frustrating but it doesn't bother me so much now and I'm getting very marginally better at them as well. I think I am probably underplaying how important decent sleep is but I just do what I can in that area, although sometimes I may have a few nights in a row where I don't sleep that well.
Steve-When I see your paces they look slow for the speed you can run at,if you're not enjoying it then switch it round,that's the most important thing.
Ian - that's a good speed session with your club. Much better to do that in company, would be a killer on your own.
Is your OH going to Reykjavik?
Big G - it would be very restrictive to try and do a long run and stick to base HR. I wouldn't run 'to feel', just run as far as you close to base rate and when the cardiac drift starts to kick in as Rcouture found then just maintain effort to the same level. Exactly as you would do in a race, but not at race pace obviously. HR will creep up but don't let that happen too early, certainly double figures. As you've been doing some decent consistent training mileage and a fair few doubles you should find that you won't need anything like the amount of long runs that you would normally do to prepare yourself. It's a shame that if/when we can run a marathon again it's not likely that we'd be able to find a half marathon race to do pre marathon, I think you'd be surprised how well endurance trained your BT has prepared you.
Returnee - Unfortunately there is no point in doing ILTHR until you can run 10 miles at your base pace with no cardiac drift. This is the period when you have to be very patient. Starting the ILTHR runs too early has been done by a lot of runners and those that do never achieve what they could using Hadd or MAF.
I do ILTHR runs and as I live in a hilly area I often use a hilly route allowing myself to get up to 80% on the hills, so for me that gives me the equivalent of an ILTHR plus some leg strength work from the hills. I also quite like hills and the best routes around here are not the flat ones.
You're on the right thread if you want to run a marathon again, we love them on here.
7 miles for me today, only 9 degrees when I went out, should have taken my gloves, my hands were freezing until the sun came out, was a bit warmer then.
Shades, it's funny you mentioned that about halfs. I've been thinking about this and let's say we're able to run some events early next year, I am wondering whether to build more of a "regular" plan and put a couple of halfs and/or 10ks in there in the build up to an event, as opposed to getting straight back on with ticking the marathons off. As you've said many times, there's nothing like a decent half (or 20 mile race) to show a runner how they're doing in the run up to a marathon.
Who knows what I'll be thinking when we get back to racing, but I suppose it's not beyond the realms of possibility that smaller, club events may be allowed first (say things First Chance 10k in January and Bideford Half in March, just as examples) prior to larger marathons. It may work out quite well, but who knows. I know next January and March is a long, long way off but I think that's the time frame I need to get into my mind in terms of "proper" racing. If it does end up being like that and I stick to MAF and add in some 80/20 it could work really well as a good block of training.
Having said all that, I was chatting to OH last night. To be honest, we're a bit nervous about flying at the moment. We currently have Warsaw booked end of September and also a trip to NL in November so we'll see what it's like for those. But a ferry on the other hand could be ideal and I think would feel safer to me at least. There's even outside space and seating on a ferry and if I just avoid the scums and hold back a bit getting off the ferry back into the car, it could actually be quite pleasant. I mentioned this in relation to Antwerp night marathon and driving over for a few days, but she's not keen with the uncertainty at her work at the moment which is fair enough. I wouldn't go on my own as it's a long drive and sharing the driving is much better.
Did a 6 mile walk yesterday and not much else. Made the mistake of having an afternoon nap and woke up very groggy so had some coffee (mistake number 2) so had real trouble getting to sleep last night. Tried around 10:30 but after tossing and turning for ages I put the light on and read for a while. Then what I assume was a police helicopter was hovering overhead for ages, making a racket, so I don't think I slept until around 12:30. Of course, I was awake well before 5 as usual.
Body was pretty grumpy - I spent 40 minutes trying to foam roll and mobilise all the tight spots. It wasn't as angry as it could have been for the run but still quite niggly - I did most of the run at recovery pace before busting out some strides in the last mile. The strides were a calculated risk given the sore high hammy but it was the best I felt all run - felt better after, too. My body definitely seems to prefer going fast. 6.25 miles total (the last quarter was a cool-down).
It's the EA virtual relays this weekend so wondering if I can get myself straight for that. I can skip it but it'd be nice to give it a shot. I've not done a 5K since my masters relay PB on my birthday.
Big G-with flying,when I read the websites it all seems pretty clean,in terms of recycled air etc,I suppose it all depends on what you perceive as a level of acceptable risk.I think for me,I feel fine with it with working right through it all in a shop,but can fully understand why others don't feel the same.
I know I'm like a broken record about my purple patch year but I'd had a really good spell of Hadd training and the last couple of weeks introduced doubles and my training paces had improved. So I knew I was in good shape but I hadn't run any long runs so hastily had to do a 20 miler the week before my next marathon. I wrote in my training diary 'best 20 mile run ever', and it wasn't because of the pace but how strong I felt for the whole 20 miles. That gave me the confidence the next week to go out at PB pace and knock 6 minutes off my marathon PB. Normally I wouldn't feel that confident from a training run alone.
I too, am not keen right now on travelling any distance for a marathon by air, I don't really like ferries, too much driving and waiting around. The outdoor seating on ferries is often blowing a gale and freezing cold. But I don't want to book anything now as I just couldn't face the hassle of having to cancel all the arrangements after doing so for so many this year. Trouble is with this virus that everything can change so quickly.
I see that they've had to close 3 pubs in the UK already, and they only opened on Saturday.
I'm hoping that the next announcement by EA will give us a more definite plan of how racing will be for the rest of the year.
Speaking to a clubmate last night who was due to do Chicago,he said the mayor said no mass events until a vaccine is found,not sure if that's accurate but if it is then it's only a matter if time until the cancel.
Doesn't look promising for your Chicago marathon but that's what you're expecting now, so will probably be a relief if they cancel.
Hope you can get rid of those niggles.
Ian - I would be quite happy to fly, not worried about that. For me it's the possibility of being cancelled at short notice and the trip being a disappointment.
I do hope that your OH does get to do the marathon of her choice soon.
Rcouture - I can understand your thinking, first marathon is really special and you're right to want it to be so. I too am not keen on doing a race with lots of rules on social distancing rules that might spoil the day for me. We have to wait and see what's going to happen but for the future there are plenty of marathons that you will be able to choose from. It's just as well you enjoy the training so much.
Shades, I've mentioned this a lot too but when I did Humdinger Half in the February before Malta in 2018 I just knew I was in great shape. It wasn't even a fantastic time (i.e., way off a PB) due to the hilly nature of it, but I just knew I was running really well and that ended a 70-mile week. And then two weeks later I did Malta. I will never know of course but I'd love to know what my HR was in the lead up to that. Definitely higher than what I'm training at now, but I wonder how much higher. Possibly not that much higher looking at my training and paces for flat or downhill sections. The main difference now is I'm walking the slopes whereas back then I wasn't.