Sub 3h15



  • Belated congratulations to TR and Mennania for storming racing at the weekend.

    Minni - DNFing is horrible, but in your case it really was for the  best, as I'm sure you've already found out. Hope to see (hear of) you back giving it large soon.

    Excellent miles from KR and PMJ.

    Slokey - Hope it's not as serious a the fizz thinks. Fingers crossed.

    Abbers - I think the whole idea of fartlek is that you do changes of pace in bursts that are as long or short as you fancy at the time, but if you want to do it how you've planned it, that's fine too. The point is getting out there and mixing things up a bit. No plodding!

    I did my P&D LT session this morning, and wasn't looking forward to it, but as always, repeating the "NO SHIRKIING; NO SHORTCUTS" mantra got the job done. In total 10 miles with 5 @ a nominal HMP. After a 2.5M w/u, the 5 faster miles came out at an av 6:24mm, then I did a 2.5M c/d home.

    Happy with this, as it is over 11-12secs/mile quicker than a similar session  done two weeks ago. It was hard work, though, and I don't know how I could hold that pace for 13.1, although then again the power of the safety pin is never to be underestimated! 

  • Bike It - decisions, decisions... Yes, I think I remember the registration process.There appear to be more location choices now - my nearest City would be Ely.
    PMJ - if you can hit that 2:08 target at the end of a 70 mile week, then VLM should be a cinchimage

  • x-post Ant - well done - that's a cracking session.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Ant - thanks for the input. Definitely no plodding; it's one of the two quicker sessions of the week, so need to put the effort in. Excellent run from you. I'd be pretty happy with 5 @ 6:24 at the Romsey 5 on Sunday, never mind as HM pace! image

    PMJ - what Gul said. Get that in the bag and be fresh come VLM, and you should fly.

  • Leslie - defo a good start to the week with a half marathon distance!

    Slokey - I'd say a 2nd opinion is needed on the arthritis. Good news on getting 30 for last week.

    Gul - subway slope is a good idea for a short hill sprint, although does it whiff of urine? Good luck on the Kent RR mara. I like that kind of 14 miler you did, with the faster 2nd half on tired legs.

    Abbers - the fartlek would be the easier of the 2 sessions as you get to have a bit of a breather between the faster bursts. I find the fartlek harder as without a defined distance it's harder to know how far you have run, and I personally don't like to keep looking at my Garmin. The progressive 5 miler is (in my opinion) tougher as you have to keep going quicker on each mile and as you go farther the legs get heavier and you have to run faster! This is a good one to do to help with pace judgement though. As Ant says, they are both good sessions.

    Ant - brilliant session bagged there and mighty fast with those 6.24 miles.

    4 mile recovery last night at a nice'n easy 8.10 pace. Got a bit of a cut back week (only in miles, not the number of runs!) as last 3 weeks have been 57.8, 59.8 & 62.8.

  • Bike ItBike It ✭✭✭


    Philip_M_Jones wrote (see)

    The plan is to do it Sunday 9th March 2014 which is the Finchley 20. As that is in March it will be my Marchvelous target and I expect 2:08 will be the target which is slightly faster than MP (2:10) but is a nice 32 minutes a lap (4 x 5 mile laps). For VLM that is 5 weeks out and at the end of a 70 mile P&D week.


    That makes sense PMJ if you've done it before and want to repeat a successful formula for you.  Personally I have always found sessions with large chunks of MP to be some of the most valuable runs.  It may be hard at the time to run 8 or more miles at MP, but doing so makes MP over the full distance achievable after all the training and the taper.

    Nice session there Ant - probably another of my favorite sessions from P&D.

    Finally I've had a good session.  7 miles total with WU then 6x2minutes hills followed by a short recovery and then 2 miles at MP. The purpose is to make hard hill effort and then return to a faster pace once the terrain becomes more favourable. The hill came out a 1:58-2:05, which is just a few seconds slower than what I would regard as a 'normal' time.  MP by feel came out at 7:09 pace.  The difference is I changed back to my old Triumph 10s and my wife fed me carbs last night.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    KR - good mileage you're clocking up there.

    BI - solid run that, and an MP of 7:09 would be very nice!

    Ended up running my session as a fartlek in the end, using the same 1k loop round a local lake that I did my 800s round last week. So did the long sides quick and the short sides easy, meaning each 1k lap consisted of approx. 650m of quicker efforts around 6:10-6:20 and 350m of recovery. The total for 8 laps (just under 8k/5 miles) came out at just over 35 mins. Add in the warm up and cool down to/from the lake, and that's 7.5 miles in total.

  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭

    Ant - That's a very good session in the bag and I'm sure a confidence booster. You seem to be returning to form, have you got any shorter races lined up before VLM?

    Gul - Nice to have your mara entry confirmed hey, makes it all the more tangible. Hope Mrs GD's back issue is nothing too serious. Subway slope sprints! Sounds like a very urban style running.

    Slokey - I used to have hip issues when I started out running and were worse after I raced but haven't had a problem for a year or so now. How long has yours being at you?

    Abbers/OO - Yes we are blessed to live where we do and it's ideal for running too. Lack of races is a bit of an issue though but hey you can't have it all.

    Today I decided that it was about time I start doing some speed sessions again so headed over to the promenade and after a very quick w/u (3 min jog) I set off not really knowing what to expect. 1st 1/2 mile rep 2:59, then 90 second recovery and turned around and realised that it was quite windy going back the other way. Next 4 reps were 3:07, 3:00, 3:08 and 2:54. The wind was definitely a factor (25mph) but I think a longer w/u would have helped as I felt fine doing the last one. Bit of a shock to the system though as it's only been about 8 months since my last sesh like that! Wasn't sure how my legs would feel after Sunday's 15 but they felt ok and I may have to make this a weekly occurrence but I would eventually like to see steady 2:5x's for each one.

  • Its fairly skipping along in here today, but I think I noted some impressive 20s from KR and PMJ - That looks quick a super quick time to cover that distance PMJ. My shorter paces I can keep up with but my LSRs all tend to drift out. Clearly something I need to work on.

    Nice sessions for Gul, ANt, Leslie,GM,OO and a welcome decent session from BI and more miles from SJ being racked up. Hope Ive missed none.

    I may have mislead regarding the pegasus 29 being £29 quid. I Went and got the last pair from the shop in my size yesterday for £23 image.

    PMJ - I have wrexham booked mid Feb which is 150ft of gain compared with over 500 ft at Helsby. I am to-ing and fro-ing between raceing it or MPing it, but given I am almost there......

    Is there any decent calculator for determining loss of pace due to ascent anywhere? Hoping 350 ft of ascent equates to 57 secs or thereaboutsimage

  • Menn - I find it a bit harder on pancake flat course. Is that weird? I like bit of up and down as you get some variety of pace. I think it's more difficult to bang out exactly the same pace for 13 or even 26 miles. Wrexham is a good course, go for it!
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Talking of 20 milers at M pace me (and Minni) are planning Redcar 20 same day 9th March. I'm thinking of doing 15*7m/m then see how I feel- maybe up the pace for the last few. It's a 1 mile circuit so should be easy to track.

    6 miles today- another flat performance following 70 miles in the last 8 days.  

  • GM, I've had 2 physios and a podiatrist comment on my hip being tight in the last 12 months plus the 2 physios recently so I guess it has been a problem for a while. Really started giving me aggro since August though and now wakes me up most nights.

    Great news though, my wife said today that she would come with me if I fancied a crack at Comrades next year! Woohoo!! 2015 thread outing is ON! Good job I haven't mentioned my physio's diagnosis eh? I'll keep that quiet until next Juneimage  shhhhh

  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    SJ - I've started planning my comrades schedule - which is going to start in July I've decided! 

    Looking forward to the lap 20 OO. my plan is 10+10 I think. 

    kR - I'm not a fan of pan flat either. I think it's because I need the recovery of the hills. 

    Planning 11 tomorrow and will do 3 first thing in the morning too for the sake of Jantastico. 

  • A 20 lap race sounds daunting guys, what's the course like (I guess you will be very familiar with it by the end). Good to have a plan though OO & Minni. 10+10 would be my choice too Minni. Although Martin goes for a 5+5+5+5 progressive approach, running the last 5 faster than MP - another option maybe?

    Slokey - your secret is safe here (if your wife is like my wife, she falls asleep when I talk about running let alone shows any interest in these forums!)

    4 x 2000m reps tonight down at “Vicky” Park with a bit of a progressive feel to it. Splits came out at 7.39, 7.33, 7.30 & 7.26. On the last one just before I started, a lady went past me on rollerblades. I think I shocked her when I zoomed last her shortly after. Although to her credit she went past me again at the top of the hill, but it took her 400m!. I think she wanted to prove a point? Does being chicked by a lady on rollerblades count?image

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    Ooh, I see Minni is up and running again.  Happy days.  Are you ok now?

    I am rather excited as we are firming up plans to return to the UK.  I can start plotting some races and catch up with some of you.  Enough about me. Now for a read back...

  • When are you due back MsE?

    KR, sounds like my wife is a bigamist. And yes, you were still chicked.

  • KR - well earned cutback week.
    Bike It - good hill work.
    Abbers - nice bit of speed work there.
    GM - good reps - always harder without a proper warm-up.
    Mennania - bargain!
    SJ - that's great news.
    Minni - hope all is well with the hip.
    KR - Chicked or not, that's a cracking set of 2k reps.
    MsE - good to hear things are taking shape.
    4 recovery miles @ 8:42 m/m d&d.

  • Morning all,

    Work-life-running balance all out if what the last couple of days - work and life getting in the way a little so not really had a chance to get in here.

    Sunday saw a very ploddy 14.5m from me - not too worried as it was 50% muddy fields again but I think I'd better do a couple on the road now to get moving a little quicker. Monday was a non-starter running wise as MrsF was out so I was on children duty all day.

    But do not fear, importantly, I'm still on track for Jantastic.

    We should have called ourselves "Aardvark's CCSub3:15 Team"... We know for next year!

    Very slow 3m done to station this morning.

    Intervals at lunch - 6x5mins off 2rec with 2w/u and 2c/d.

    Judging by the lack of energy in my legs this morning that's going to be fun!

    Quick read back suggests done great miles being run - PMJ, Lorenzo, KR, GM, abbers, BIkeIt, to name a few.

    Watch those hips people.

    I can't believe we're already discussing the wonders of Beetroot... That doesn't normally appear until Mad March... Beet It Shots (the silver extra charged ones) are my weapon of choice. I try to time the intake before a race so the first appearance of pink pee is the morning of the race - my (unscientific) theory being that the pink pee indicates system saturation... Normally takes 3days.

    Oh the power of placebo? Maybe?...
  • GerardMGerardM ✭✭✭

    Slokey - Hope the hip starts behaviing itself soon. Being woken up with discomfort most nights is not good. Funnily enough I was watching some old footage of the greatest ultra runner ever (IMO) Mr Fordyce last night, his running style was poetry in motion and he is an interesting chap too & a very good public speaker. Good luck with your Comrades training! I may attempt the two oceans ultra one day but will leave the Comrades to you and your fellow thread nutters!

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    another flat 5 miler this morning. I'm going out again tonight and will try for some pace. Although I'm tired the body feels good- no injuries or reaction to the new demands. And I've not even tried beetroot yet image.

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Morning all.

    GM - good benchmark for those reps. Sounds like the wind didn't help either!

    OO51 - Not surprised you felt a little flat after 70 miles in 8 days. The body feeling a bit tired is to be expected at this stage of training though? No injuries or adverse reaction is good.

    SJ - Congrats on the Comrades permission. So how many thread members does that make it heading to SA?

    Minni - glad to hear you're back at it after the weekend. How's the hip?

    KR - good pace on those 2k reps. Wheels is cheating.

    MsE - so when might we see you back in Blighty?

    Gul - 4 slow ones in the middle of the night. Could you actually do your training in your sleep? image

    FINgers - decent 14.5 given conditions under foot. Good luck with today's reps; think you might surprise yourself on a firm, dry surface!

    9 easy on the cards for lunchtime.

  • 00-51 Goodluck with the pace run.

    Abbers- 9 easy should be no issue now

    For me this morm time to have another crack at a 10 miler with 4 at LT pace which mcmillan says is 6:42 min/mile, was dreading it...

    3wu with some strides added  as I couldnt even hit that pace for 1 mile last time .It very quickly became clear id never make 4 miles in one go so I tried 2x2 miles with 2 mins rest.

    Paces were 6:40, 6:54, 2mins rest , 6:39,7:08 , On the last mile I had to stop for 1 min at halfway as my legs were jelly and the pace fell right off.Last time it was 7:10 for 4 miles so im slowly getting there especially as the last 3 days were 18,13 and 8 miles yesterday point making it too easy is there image

    14 days straight so much needed test day tomorrow. image


  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭

    Slokey: I had hip issues during my FLM2009 campaign. The pain affected the hamstring as well as deep in the hip joint itself and surrounding area, weird.The physio was great, he detected something not quite right and sent me to see a hip specialist (fotunately I had Bupa through work).

    After an x-ray, MRI and CT scans it turns out I had FAI, Femoroacetabular Impingement, a bulge in the bone at the top of the femur that bashed into the pelvis everytime I went running. Amazing I ran with it for so long really, years. Anyway, they knocked me out for a few hours, got the drill and toolbox out and filed it into the correct shape in a keyhole surgey op. I have the DVD from the camera they used to do it. On crutches for 2 weeks and rehab was around 9 months but it was worth it. Hopefully yours is just a twinge that will need strong physio thumbs to sort.

    Managed 7 hilly (400ft elev gain) miles at 6.55 pace yesterday. Some work colleagues use the Strava website so I logged my run on there and bagged a few course records which annoyed them a little. Decent session though, a confidence booster.


  • MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Fingers - my pee turns red as soon as I take the stuff.  Not sure what that says about my digestive system. 

    Leslie H wrote (see)

    For me this morm time to have another crack at a 10 miler with 4 at LT pace which mcmillan says is 6:42 min/mile, was dreading it...

    3wu with some strides added  as I couldnt even hit that pace for 1 mile last time .It very quickly became clear id never make 4 miles in one go so I tried 2x2 miles with 2 mins rest.

    Paces were 6:40, 6:54, 2mins rest , 6:39,7:08 , On the last mile I had to stop for 1 min at halfway as my legs were jelly and the pace fell right off.Last time it was 7:10 for 4 miles so im slowly getting there especially as the last 3 days were 18,13 and 8 miles yesterday point making it too easy is there image

    So, what is the general consensus here.  Did Leslie achieve the session or did he turn it into something else?  Sorry Leslie I don't mean to point the finger in any way image but these are the ones I find very hard too and often have to have a little breather, which is probably why I'm so crap in flat, fast races.    Is it better to drop the pace a bit and run the block continuous or to try to hit the paces taking breathers when needed? image

    Definitely looks like you're making good progress there Leslie either way. image

    SB - which of the three showed up your problem? Xray, MRI or CT?


  • I am hugely impressed by Leslie's efforts, as I would have given up and slunk off home at at least two points in that session, but I also don't think it was a lactate threshold session, because it shouldn't be so hard you can only manage one mile at the target pace. On what basis does McMillan think that is your lactate threshold?

    If you accept the idea that running at or just slightly below your lactate threshold encourages your body to adapt and improve that threshold, then it should surely be better to drop the pace to a more realistic appraisal of where your actual LT is (rather than where McMillan, who doesn't know you, thinks it is). Otherwise you're running harder than you should be right from the start and it might be a good workout but not of the specific system you've set out to target.

  • Hmmm, I read somewhere (Here actually)  that an LT session needs to be a minimum of 10 mins. I prefer to do mine in one hit but have split them due to hills/tiredness etc previously. but if you are going to split them you must hit steady paces. I would accept a very slight pace drop of on a continuous 4-5 mile LT but 29 secs on a 2 mile session suggests the LT being attempted is slighly ambitious?

    Go easy SJ

  • AbbersAbbers ✭✭✭

    Leslie - well done on finishing the session; sounds tough. Given that you've run 49 miles in the last 4 days (including this session), I'm not surprised you were a little fatigued! Maybe the pace was a little aggressive; 4 miles at 6:55 might have been a better bet to enable you to finish the prescribed session? Not sure I'm in a position to dish out advice though.

    SB - good pace given the elevation gain.

    9 easy miles in the bag, despite my running buddy's attempts to go a little quicker. Grr.


  • G-DawgG-Dawg ✭✭✭

    Minni - it was the MRI that showed the bulge to the specialist. They did use some fancy x-ray TV system to film what happened when they put needles into the joint, filled it with ink and watched for any leaky cartilage type stuff.


  • Bike ItBike It ✭✭✭

    Did someone mention Comrades? 

    Menn - regarding slow down versus ascent, I researched that previously.  The only predictor I could find was Naismith rule, which came from the pedestrian era.  His rule was that for each 600m/2000ft ascent would be equivalent in time to walking 5km/3.2miles on the flat.  It has been tested somewhat for fell racing and came out reasonably - there is no strong research on it that I'm aware of though.  However, it sounds like at least 57s.

    The adaption caused by LT runs doesn't take place in the first mile, but after the body get more acidic as you get further into the run.  For that reason I think it better to back off to a sustainable pace rather than take a break. 

    I ran down to Sweatshop in Reading this lunchtime and bought new shoes.  I went for the Saucony Ride 6 which hopefully has enough cushioning and enough of everything else to support my running.  I ran back to the office with it and it seems good so far.


  • How are you calculating your threshold speed? If you're basing it on your proposed marathon pace but your marathon is still 3 months away then it's no wonder it's tough - you simply aren't fit enough yet. Yes, you'll be able to run at that pace closer to the race as your fitness level and threshold level increases, but right now it's a tough ask. You have to be realistic about where you are at the moment, and if that means having to add a few seconds onto your threshold pace so you can do the full 4 miles then for me that would have been better than running yourself to a standstill.

    8 x 3 mins for me last night, very slowly with the slowest group. Very comfortable, barely breathing, but still feeling the after-effects of the illness - no energy at all.

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