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Sub 3h15

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    I'm hoping to edge my MP towards 7 min miling for VLM. What would be the plus 20% and plus 10% paces please PMJ? (Or anyone else with a maths head on!). I usually do at least one of my LSRs as a progressive run to spice things up a bit - usually the St Valentine's 30k. Ordinarily I run the first 20k at LSR pace then pick it up a bit with no target pace in mind. It might be handy to do it à la P&D.
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    moofmoof ✭✭✭
    PMJ- What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow?
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    TRTR ✭✭✭

    PMJ - thanks, for the reading material. looks like i need to bring a bit of speed into it then. Funny cos I dliberately did long slow hilly runs this VLM as against some of the faster long runs I've done before ( and burnt out a bit from running too long and hard). I was very strong this yr but cramped up at 23M which could be due to a lack of race specfic running (as well as sweat loss cos I'm a bit fella and it was a warm day). I think I'll bag miles through Jan and then alternate long slow hilly runs with some faster long runs and do some 6:30s work once a week with something like 5M building to 10M within a 12 on a Friday. I'm pretty sure my running would respond well to a bit of quality in the right places.

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    What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
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    CC2 - Speedy Goth wrote (see)
    I'm hoping to edge my MP towards 7 min miling for VLM. What would be the plus 20% and plus 10% paces please PMJ?
    All tabulated at the bootom of this page.
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    TR wrote (see)

    PMJ - thanks, for the reading material. looks like i need to bring a bit of speed into it then. Funny cos I dliberately did long slow hilly runs this VLM as against some of the faster long runs I've done before ( and burnt out a bit from running too long and hard). I was very strong this yr but cramped up at 23M which could be due to a lack of race specfic running (as well as sweat loss cos I'm a bit fella and it was a warm day). I think I'll bag miles through Jan and then alternate long slow hilly runs with some faster long runs and do some 6:30s work once a week with something like 5M building to 10M within a 12 on a Friday. I'm pretty sure my running would respond well to a bit of quality in the right places.

    Seems to be pretty much my plan as well. I have done a lot of speed over the summer, will flip to concentrate on endurance for a while and bring the speed back building up the miles at 6:30 towards the end of the campaign. Burn out is an issue I am aware of and if people start to spot the symptoms in me, please shout out, but as my wife points out, being tired and running a short fuse is the way I am normally.
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    Ah, thanks PMJ! I'm off now to work out some training paces. I should be packing, but...

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    Hmmm, not really understanding all the terms. RW gives paces for V02 and Speed Form, Macmillan gives paces for tempo intervals and cruise intervals. WTF?
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    PMJ, I think you should provide a weighted average of speed based on the respective speed and population size of the european and African swallow, IMO.

    Rennur, that sounds painful! The ice seemed to have melted after my Christmas shopping / cash haemorraging expedition so popped out for a 13.1 in 8:20 ave pace. Was already re-icing on the return leg as the sun went down.
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    CC2 - Speedy Goth wrote (see)
    Hmmm, not really understanding all the terms. RW gives paces for V02 and Speed Form, Macmillan gives paces for tempo intervals and cruise intervals. WTF?

    Hmmmmmmmmm, without major scanning that isn't easy ....

     The basic thing is that the pace is really indicative of what the session is all about. If you are just running a sessoin to pace you probably don't understand what the session is about, and if you believe Noakes, then the guy who designed the session probably doesn't either.

    The long and medium runs are pretty straightforward; you are going to run a long way so train by running a long: not as hard as you woudl race but also not too easy.

    Pure speed work is also fairly easy: hit it hard and adjust so if the session was too easy, do it faster or with less recovery and vice versa.

    The VO2 or tempo or lactate threshold or lactate turning is the hardest. the theory is that there is a balance between the rate you produce and use lactate. If you run easy, you can use more than you produce so it doesn't build up. If you run hard, you produce more than you can use and you tire. A tempo run is supposed to be at the point just below where the two are balanced. A good guide is to take how long you can race in an hour and that is your tempo pace, so for me it is 6 m/m, elite guys can get to half marathon distance in the hour so it is their HM pace etc etc.

    There is quite a good article here, but as I say,  it is worth understanding what the run is about first before deciding what the pace is, as pace will vary greatly from person to person.

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    Slo-hoho-keyJoe wrote (see)
    PMJ, I think you should provide a weighted average of speed based on the respective speed and population size of the european and African swallow, IMO.
    Averages are very misleading: the average person has less than 2 legs image
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    I know what tempo pace is, but I don't know what a tempo interval is, especially not if it has a different pace to tempo pace (as per Macmillan). How long should a tempo interval be? And then there's the RW ones - V02 and Speed Form with no indication of how a session might look if you were running these paces. Neither pace calculator gives me a marathon pace. I think I'll stick to my own invented paces, much like my own invented schedule. Seems to be working so far!

    I bought a pair of running shoes once that said on the side 'average contents - 2'.

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    I find the best way to avoid fretting over pace calculation is to be injured most of the time and not do any LRs.  Anyway, 10m today @ 7.30mm, 26.2 tomorrow at a pace to be plucked out of the air in the morning.

    Lorenzo - surely you could use Ryuichi Sakamoto's theme to "Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence" as your yuletide tune?

    All I want for Christmas is my two fifty marathon wrote (see)
    Averages are very misleading: the average person has less than 2 legs image

    Come and visit Derbyshire...

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    TRTR ✭✭✭
    Poacher - I hope you enjoy your run tomorrow, It was very wet and icy here today which made my run a bit treacherous at times this morning, but it was ok on the south side of Portsdown Hill (which is where you will be). I think you might hit a bit of mud at times, but most of the off road bits should have some firm bits on the tracks. 
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    BirchBirch ✭✭✭

    Head hurts after previous couple of pages  . . . . .image 

    15.5 sedate miles this a.m. which was meant to include (non-sedate) parkrun, but that was cancelled (sensibly) due to black ice on paths.  2003 for the year now, with 2 weeks left, so ok with that. 

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    BirchBirch ✭✭✭
    Like Lorenzo, can't think of a festive variation for my moniker . . . .
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    MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Poacher good luck with no 27 today.

    All this talk of percentages and paces and names is too much to take in. It's so much easier when someone else does the thinking for you! image
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    OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Looks like some heavy science going on the the few days I've been away. I've been concentrating on partying in the run up to Christmas. Woke up Saturday with a think head from the works do, then remembered I'd entered the Saltwell 10K at 12:30. What a great way to clear your head.

    Anyway I ran 38:20 and came 23rd (3rd V45). It wasn't pretty but a nice little race. 18 gentle miles ran this morning.

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    MinniMinni ✭✭✭

    Nice one O&O.  I'm assuming the weather down there isn't as bad as here.  We have a fair amount of snow which has now frozen solid.  It made for a cold 20m yesterday.

    Birch wrote (see)
    Like Lorenzo, can't think of a festive variation for my moniker . . . .
    [on the first day of Christmas my true love gave to me]  A marathon runner in a Birch tree.  
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    4 calling Birch....
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    Well done OO for what is probably a Hangover PB for you!

    Good luck tomorrow Poacher.

    I was looking forward to a read back, having been away (i.e. doing real-life things) for a couple of days, but Minni and Birch have scared me off!

    11.5M for me today @ a leisurely 7:45mm with HR pleasingly down to an av 138 bpm. That makes 36M for the week, which is where I think I should probably be at this stage.

    Tragically for my stats-related OCD, I am up to 2,828 kms for 2011, so will come up agonisingly short of the 3,000...

    Four Calling Birch is brilliant!

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    MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    3 Silver Birch...
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    Maybe the winter fuel Wenceslas's peasant mate was gathering was birch twigs? (OK a bit tenuous)

    O&O Nice blast to get rid of the "think" head

    Wrap up warm Minni!  We had snow on the beach the other day but it's not been nearly as cold as inland. 

    Portsmouth mara today:  Nice course along the front at Southsea then round Langstone harbour to Hayling Island, and back.  Always good to run by the sea, a cold sunny day, and dead flat too.  Not a hugely fast one as it's largely off road with areas of mud, frozen puddles, a few patches of ice, plus some mudflats, uneven grass and (very slow) shingle beaches.  Also very narrow much of the way, windy in places, and not the same without Minni's drinks station. I set out to do a steady 3.30ish as a deliberately slow LSR. This went by the board as it was pretty cold hence the need to warm up which meant overtaking people to get out of traffic on the single file bits. Decided on 3.15-3.20 and came home in 3.16.19 having stopped for a brief showboat before the line.  Job done, life in the old dog. Must find another mara next month.

    Highlight of the day was seeing the Southampton FC fans being bussed in convoy under police escort to the derby v Portsmouth.  Like Oscar Wilde they wound down the windows, gathered their best witticisms and shouted "RUN". Ah, such wit and wisdom.

    Have a good week all.

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    TRTR ✭✭✭

    Poacher - nice one, sounds like a pretty quick run, maybe the course is quicker than I though it would be. Must be worth a decent bit quicker on roads though. I still dont fancy doing it myself, although it seems to be popular.

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    Well done Poacher - but did they really have you running across shingle beaches?? If so, that is a really excellent time. If not, that is still a really excellent time for a training run!

    Belated congratultions to KR for getting in, and to Matthew for a hard-fought, well-earned sub 3:15!

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    Nice One Poacher - you really are one crazy mara-runner

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    OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Yes excellent one poacher for the condition- very impressed with 3:16.

    It is icy here too Minni but no snow.

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    Well done on the 10k O&O

    Poacher, wow, great time on rough terrain and with juice left for some showboating! Top drawer.
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    OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Here's the profile of yesterdays race. Makes my 38:20 look more reasonable.

     

    http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/members/images/393956/Gallery/Race_Saltwell_Park_19-12-2009__Elevation_-_Time.png

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    MinniMinni ✭✭✭
    Another brilliant marathon performance Poacher - well done!

    O&O. I decided to give the 10k a miss after being left traumatised by the 5k! That is one hilly park - was it icy too? They'd gritted the paths for the 5k on Wednesday and it wasn't too bad.
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