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HADD training plan
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Thanks for the good luck messages chaps!
Came home in 2:55:16, exactly 1min outside my pb. A tad disappointed, cos I really did think I was in shape for a low 2:50. Cracking weekend though and managed to get a pb Sunday night - 5am in the hotel bar!
Dare I say it - Starting to toy with the idea of ultras......
Not a pb but a brilliant effort, Brian, and well done.
I watched the live program on Sunday and saw Nell McAndrew get home around the same time.
Can you explain how you set your stall out for the Marathon ie. do you target heart rate or pace ? Do you take any gels ? Any specific pre race nutrition ?
Been AWOL for quite some time, work, study and family have taken up a lot of time normally devoted to browsing the forums. Still plodding through the miles and whilst the joy of running hasn't returned in waves, I've knuckled down and got on with it. Speed for HR has been improving which is what Hadd's all about and all being well my marathon on Sunday should see another step in the right direction time wise.
Keen to give Hadd a good go as I tired badly at the end of London and have better times at shorter distances which would seem to indicate a poor aerobic base...
800m 1:55
1500m 3:59
5k 16:20
10k 32:40
Half 1:15.30
Marathon 2:58.50
Would really appreciate any help/guidance on where to start and what potential Mara PB I could look for.
NB my RHR. Is 42 and MHR is 193
Thanks
Michael
Brian - great run!
GG - you have some great times! Also, in addition to Hadd considerations, check out the Middle Ground thread for some interesting training discussions that seemed to bring good marathon results in recent weeks at VLM and Hull.
mace, Cheers. Nell's arrival on the Mall was being announced as I rounded the 2nd last bend. She beat me by about 30s.
Since dipping below 3hrs in 2007, I have managed it for my last 6 marathons. I have run by HR in all of them except for this one. I thought I would have a change and run to pace.
I have a tried and tested formula for Marathons - I set of at 87% - 8 beats. Let it increase gradually till hitting 87% at h/w. Then increase up to 87% + 8 beats by the 20mile point. After that I daren't look, but it depends on what condition your legs are in to whether the HR carries on increasing, stays stable or drops!
I take a minimum of 4 gels - at the start, 6M, 12M and 18M. I will take 5 with me, with the option of taking the last one at 22M, if I'm really struggling.
Obviously carbo-load from Thursday lunchtime.
chickadee, I'm obsessed with the marathon, have been since first trying to break 3 in 1996.
I'm also obsessed with social drinking too........
You are correct the HR does go up when one becomes a little excited. I use relaxation techniques (deep breathing, visualisation etc) to keep it manageable. As soon as I get into my running the nerves disappear, and therefore the HR returns to normal levels. It is a very safe way of running maras. I have run 13 road marathons, none of which were above 3:10, and apart from cramp here and there, the wheels have remained firmly on the wagon. I put this down to safe pacing using HR.
But I have now decided to "have a go" and abandon the safe way in order to better my times. I tend to be too cautious and very rarely run to failure in a race.
GG,
Your times are very fast (except for your mara of course), you are obviously a talented runner.
Off your 20mile time of 2:10 I would've expected a low 2:50 from you in the mara. Your HM time of 79:20 points to even quicker. I am guessing your preparation didn't include the correct components for marathon build-up? How many long runs did you do, when and at what pace?
DrDan, Yes it looks as we weren't too far apart at Amsterdam either. Quality run and quality report. It's lovely when the day turns out as well as it did for him. The training must've gone brilliantly.
In the marathon I felt the most comfortable in (New York last November) I held my HR pretty steady at 170 or below to 20miles and then felt strong enough to push on for the last 6. NB my last mile at NY ( in hilly central park) was 6:11 to finish with 2:59
Compare this to Sunday's VLM where I got obsessed with sticking to 6:40 pace (regardless of the effort it took to do this). My heart rate graph shows that from mile 12 My HR steadily climbed up from 173 to 190 at mile 24 (my MHR is 193!) and unsurprisingly this was unsustainable and I detonated and had to walk the last 2 miles (forced to by bad cramp). Finish time 3:06 ...last 2 miles = 21minutes (ouch)
I am doing Lakeland marathon in July and will try out the HR method and see if it works...if so I will repeat at Dublin in Oct.
...any tips gratefully received..
Grevious
I mainly trained with my club ... Trafford AC and looking back I think that this was more geared up for 5-10k improvements.
I really do think that the issue is my aerobic capacity (I did a lab test at Loughborough a year or so back and the results show that I have a VO2 max of 72% , and huge anaerobic capacity but relatively poor running economy)
I guess I have tried to carry on doing the track /5k training and naively expecting that I can churn out a good marathon time..For this reason I am keen to try out HADD.
My weekly mileage following a 3 week rest after New York last November was:
31, 45, 28, 30, 27, 53, 53, 60, 59, 48 (I'll for 2 days), 65, 47, 37, 12 (calf injury), 41, 38, 38, 79, 48, 32, 34, 39, 12 (Mara week)
This included 2 quality track/rep sessions per week + a long run.
In terms of long runs I tended to do Mara simulation with the first half at Mara +30s and the second half at Mara pace... These started at 7/7 (14 miles) and built up to 10/10 (20 miles.
I also threw in a couple of races which I purposefully did at below race pace...I.e a measured training run (Trimpell 20, Blackpool Half and Wakefield 10k)
Grevious
GG, Definitely sounds like you are fast twitch rather than slow twitch. It appears to me that some Hadd training would be ideal as it will train your slow twitch fibres.
After a couple of easy weeks, I would base your week around 2 key sessions, a 1:40 run and a 2:30-3hr long run. Based on your max of 193, I reckon you should be able to average 168-170 in the marathon.
So initially the 1:40 run should be 15mins warm-up - 70mins@155 - 15mins cool-down. Your pace over the first 3 of these runs should increase with each attempt. Try to do them on an out and back course, as you are trying to remove any drift. I would also alter the long run to be 2:30 easy initially, aim to average 140 for the whole run.
Leading up to your mara in July, for the last 3 weeks prior to a 2 week taper, the key sessions would become:
15mins - 70mins@160 - 15mins
Long 1:20 easy - 1:20@160
For the last 2 weeks (pre-taper) I would add a speed session, say 10x800m, or 6x1k
For the July marathon itself, I would set off at 160-165, and aim to hit 168 at h/w. Increasing to 170-172 at 20M, the last 10k should see you increase into 180s near the end, if your legs are well conditioned.
These HR figures are estimates at the moment, but as you get into doing the longer stints, the HR numbers may need some tweaking here and there.
What are people's views on plugging the odd anaerobic/race session in with aerobic training....is this a HADD no no?
Also I was doing some reading that suggested throwing in some strides at the end of long easy runs to maintain good running form....any views?
Grevious
GG, FWIW my opinion is that strides are reasonably important especially in the phase where no speedwork is being done. It helps psychologically more than physically as you are proving that you can still run fast, and of course you get the buzz thats associated with faster running.
I would do the strides as part of recovery or medium length aerobic runs, but not as part of the long run. The long run has a specific purpose, and this will tire you in itself, especially if you lean towards the progressive long runs. I would definitely propose 3 or 4 x30s in a recovery run (only if you feel like it and NEVER automatically) as I think it tends to help flush the lactic out of your system without building up any more.
When Hadding runners tend not to like to race as they are put off because of their lack of race specific training such as tempo or interval work. Personally I can't see a problem, as long as you are prepared for potentially slower times, due to the lack of leg speed.
GG, some very fast PBs there - I reckon with a bit of HADD training that marathon time could come down quite a bit.
Now, a quick question for the experienced Hadders on here. Up to this week I've been running my threshold runs averaging around 160bpm (max is 196). This week I've moved up to 163-168bpm and today I did a 12-miler with 10 at threshold around a flat loop so I could track cardiac drift. Very pleased as HR/pace was rock solid for the whole 10 miles (in fact the last 2 miles were the quickest!) and it felt comfortable. Averaged 7:28mm for 166bpm. Now by HADD's definition I've already 'mastered' this level, but do you think it would still be beneficial to stay at it for a while longer or should I move up, say to 165-170bpm straight away?
And hello GG. I feel like the thread tortoise right now
Question: do you guys only do one of those initial LT runs per week? I thought Hadd had Joe do 2 of them. Just wondering ...
Daren, sorry I can't help with your question. I only got to stage 1 in the LT runs and right now I am on a "conventional" training plan for a half marathon. I'm still in two minds whether that's a good idea. I got on well with Hadd and my 5k TT showed that I hadn't lost much speed. Perhaps I should continue? On the other hand I like the traditional mix of reps, tempo and a longer run ... and woulp probably keep Hadd for base training. Decisions, decisions
Looking forward to it though, it'll be the first time I'll have been able to sleep in my own bed the night of a marathon!
Gonna just enjoy it and try running on HR as opposed to pace (nothing to lose)
GG
Chickadeee, I run 2 LT runs a week with at least two days of 70% runs in between.
Darren, looks to me as you are ready to move up, but I still would give my self one more go just to confirm all is as it should be. Are you in a rush to move the HR up?
As for my LT training. I run for 1 hour at 130bpm and have got my second half of that run down to +45 seconds from + 2 and half mins , not quite managed a negative split yet , untill I do will carry on at this HR.
yrs Roy
GG, wow, 2 marathons in 2 weeks! Good luck in MK!
GG
nutter!! I hope the gamble pays off for you. Good luck!!
A session I do the Thurs the week before the HM ie. 10days before -
7M at 80%, followed by 3M at HM pace (or tempo).
Works for me....
Ran of HR today 160bpm through 13miles taking me through in 1:30. Picked up to 168/170 up to 22 then gave it all I had to finish in 3:03 (pretty pleased after detonating at London last week. Deffo felt the benefit of running to HR (thanks Brian) and felt strong at the end going past tons of people (despite still having heavy legs from London).
2weeks well earned rest now before HADDING commences.... Target 2:49.59 at Dublin in October !!
GG
That sounds like a good session, Brian. Have just filed it for future reference
I reckon I will probably start using the HRM in future marathons then. So far I've never used mine in a mara because of certain bits of the female anatomy getting in the way and ending up with really bad chafing
GG well run.
GG