HADD training plan



  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    I understand AtD. - Why the 10% increase though? Is this a mental thing as cycling is very different to running. You can ramp up the hours on the bike very quickly without risk of injury.

    Also I agree with the turbo / treadmill in the garage - firstly the sofa stinks after a few days of sweaty indoor workouts and secondly, the heat generated by running and cycling indoors is astounding. I was effectively running outside temperature wise this morning and was in just trainers and shorts (top less) by the end of the run (sorry ladies, no pictures!) 

    Thanks Stewart. It does look better than just copying the text via right click, but I am not sure I can be arsed with the hassle! Glad the question was appreciated NN. 

    Spen - 100miles - You're mad!

  • BD2000, I kinda did a 80%+ run this evening during Jog Scotland run see below, I know what you mean about the HR monitor once or twice mine has given me very strange readings.

    Keir, it really only takes a few minutes to do once you know what you're doing, good treadie run earlier, I struggle on them image

    Spen that's some serious mileage,

    Brian, do these faster runs I do a couple of times a week have any impact on the 75% stuff

    NN, which P&D plan are you following, I downloaded the book on my kindle last month and I was thinking of following the 55 mile on when I start training for Loch Ness in May.

    Santa, your run today sounded awesome, I really enjoy getting out into the countryside as well, fortunately it is not difficult up here in Inverness image

    Tonights run was a non Hadd run with a 4 miles easy then 4 mile tempo with a hill thrown in for good measure. stats for the run below


     I enjoyed running in the snow tonight, but I did notice it requires a little more effort.

  • spen, respect! Basically you are training for time on your feet then. Run-walk tactics no doubt. Best of luck to you.

    StewartC, The faster runs will have a slight negative effect on the aerobic development I think. But this will be minimal if kept short. On the other side of the coin, the faster stuff is good for your general fitness and speed.

    Analogy: Imagine a full tube of toothpaste. Where you squeeze the tube is the intensity of your run ie. the bottom of the tube is 70%-75%, halfway up the tube is 80-85% and 90% is 3/4 the way up. The amount of toothpaste you squeeze out is the aerobic development. So to get ALL the toothpast start at the bottom and work upwards gradually. If you squeeze from the middle, you will still get toothpaste but not as much.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    I undestand this theory, but there is also the evidence that short, high intensity training above LT and VO2 max also raises aerobic development. So using your analogy Brian, some tight short squeezes at the top of the tube actually pull up paste from the bottom of the tube.

    I am reading the 'time crunched cyclist' which is a program based upon high intensity over very little hours per week. I am wondering about how some 1 - 4 min LT or VO2 max intervals will combine with HADD. I don't want to erode the HADD base I have, but also want to maximise my potential in as short a time as possible. Anyone with any ideas / or reading recommendations on this?

  • Keir, yes I saw a documentary in which a bloke trained very hard for only a few minutes a day. This was supposed to increase the VO2, but it turned out that it did nothing for him. One of the conclusions was that 10% of the population could not increase their VO2 (I'm not sure whther it was just this way or anyway) because of their genetics! This fact blew me away, and I was instantly skeptical. So as far as I'm concerned the jury is still out on this one.

  • Googled the doc - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/242498.php

    A variation on HIT, but only to "improve some measures of fitness". I think insulin sensitivity was the main one.

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    imageThis thread is moving too fast, i can't keep up, sorry image

    spen - respect indeed !! I watched " Running on the Sun" a couple of weeks ago which , for those who don't know, is about the Badwater 135 - a 135M Ultramarathon . What an absolutely brutal race through the desert - one person trained by hooking up a hot air blower to the treadmill and ran in a suit of some kind to simulate conditions. The winner did it in something like 24 hours ... for the equivalent of 6 and a bit marathons image When it's cold and dark outside of a morning as i head out for my run, i think of that race and what's ahead of me all of a sudden becomes a piece of piss

    Keir - i think you must be right in that there will be some aerobic development at the higher intensity but you can't do enough miles at those intensities to fully develop.


    HR monitor played up something rotten this morning - it was loose and i forgot the KY Jelly !!!

    9M General Aerobic on day 4 of P&D ... no idea on HR but pace was 8:40

    I was having a think as i cycled into work today about this HADD stuff that i started back in the Spring. I came to a definite conclusion that if i hadn't discovered it there is no way on earth i'd be almost a week through a P&D training schedule today. For beginners/novices with any ambition to run a marathon it has to be an absolute must.

    I think i love you John HADD Walsh. RIP

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    I saw that documentary as well Brian and that article summarises it nicely. But this is aimed at couch potatoes who do no exercise at all and are at risk of diabetes. I am talking about the benefit of High Intensity for active athletes to raise their aerobic threshold. Where as HADD pushes up from underneath, this pulls up from training above.

    Happy days Mace. image

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    This is probably the most interesting link I can find Brian, although it is not really what I am talking about. I suppose the approach taken in this article would be more the icing on the cake after several months of HADD baking! 

  • mace. lol! It's novel when you start a new schedule. Keep us informed.

    Keir, yes you are correct. So for these sedentary people walking to the shop would have the same benefits no doubt. The Tabata stuff obviously increases anaerobic capacity but does not increase the VO2 max any more than the steady state stuff.

    Plucked up the courage to do a speed session yesterday:

    9M incl 6x3mins(90s) Hoped to get 5:40 pace out of these as I did in the Summer. Temp was -2 and I really struggled to get "warm":

    5:56/156 5:49/163 5:50/164 5:47/166 5:50/165 5:46/164

    Pleasing thing was I got it done and banked, even though the weather was against it. What I did notice was I couldn't get my HR above 173! I would normally hit high 170s (even 180) in this session, as well as tempo. I'm thinking the cold put paid to that?



  • Brian, I think I understand, so infact I'm squeezing from the bottom and middle of the tube, I'm enjoying the slower stuff I don't think I could have got to 40+ miles a week without it and I will reap the rewards for that next year.

    Went out this morning for a 60 min run in the snow, it is not so easy to run in the snow, getting a good grip proved to be difficult and you need to work a litttle harder.

    final run for the week 44.5 miles in total a distance PB



  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Stewart - nice mileage, well done

    Brian - leading by example !! Fine run image

    Yes, the new plan is novel and i like having my mileage planned rather than making it up as i go along. I'm very slowly getting my head around how to do the P&D runs and for the General Aerobic, Medium and Long Runs i think they are basically a mixture of 70% (MP + 20%) , 75% ( MP + 10%) and 80% ( MP ) ..... does that sound broadly correct in your experience , assuming you've followed P&D of course !?

    This seems to fit in with my McMillan predicted MP of around 7:40 based on recent 10M race in 71:13.

    So i get ... MP @ 7:40, MP+10 @ 8:20, MP+20 @ 9:00 give or take a few seconds here and there.


  • I am sure I read somewhere that it takes 10 years to build the aerobic engine to its full capacity?

  • Mace -   From what I remember General Aerobic is your MP plus 15%,  Long run is MP plus 20%.

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    spen71 wrote (see)

    I am sure I read somewhere that it takes 10 years to build the aerobic engine to its full capacity?

    Probably about right if you consider most olympians.

  • mace - ditto the sentiment for John Walsh.

    In this fast living world of ours what a pleasure to actually relax and get fit without too much worry of injury. It's true we (for we put 'I') want to see progress quickly because we have become conditioned in our modern society to expect things pronto (Amazon, Google, etc.) which in turn frustrates us when things don't happen quickly. HADD could be a way of calming us down - the Zen of the running world.

    Ok less philosophy - more running. Trying to fit 5 runs in this week which means 60 mins tonight with 30 mins of 80% work, 50 mins recovery run tomorrow and 80+ mins LSR on Sunday - hope that isn't too much. It will put my weekly mileage up to about 32 miles (4 more than usual). Icould leave the recovery run, have a break on Saturday and do 100+ mins on Sunday. Any thoughts?

  • mace, I've never actually followed a P&D before, but those bands seem reasonable to me. I think you'll find that you're anle to average more than 80% in the marathon but 80% is a very sensible and cautious start. My 80% runs are around 148-150 HR, I nudge these up to 83% near to target date, and the paces for 83% approximate to my actual MP. I tend to set off at 83% and aim to hit 86-87% at half way. This then becomes the average HR for the marathon, because beyond 20miles I allow the HR to go up towards 90% and then beyond in the last 5k.

    BD2000, like your thinking.

    Yes I also have read the 10 year thing somewhere.

    Lots of stretching and massage in the gym, around a 5M treadie run. Made it progressive, (as I must to relieve the boredom) starting at 11kph and notching up 0.1 every minute. Got to 14.7kph at about 160 HR.

    5M in 37:52 HRav 131

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭
    Brian. wrote (see)

    I tend to set off at 83% and aim to hit 86-87% at half way. This then becomes the average HR for the marathon, because beyond 20miles I allow the HR to go up towards 90% and then beyond in the last 5k.

    Exactly the same as me Brian. Although I deliberately set out slow at Abingdon and average 80% for the first 5k before stepping it up. I averaged 85% overall.

  • I saw that documentary also, and agree it was aimed at couch potatoes looking for a quick fix....which we all know really doesn't happen

    like most of here I bet, I work with folk many 20.30 years younger who " go to the gym" and are constantly 'dieting' but somehow never look any different. I am past the stage of preaching (which I never have anyway) but do get a bit fed up at times
    with being told "running is bad for my knees " and I " must be mad" etc etc I think its rude to be honest...I did kind of get my own back the other night
    while walking up to a patients bed with my colleague coughing her lungs up,,the patient said "dont you spread those germs all over me" !!! directed at my colleague


     so I said oh don't worry you wont catch anything that's a smokers cough, and was given a look by her that could kill lol !!
    but excuse me whats the difference between that and the continuous remarks about my life style ?

    Sorry went way of subject..lol.

    Stewart my schedule will fall between the 2 I can easily follow the up to 55 as I have been doing 50 mile weeks for a while , but I wont be doing the doubles and may take extra rest days instead of recovery days following the up to 70  depends how it fits into my night shifts

    Did a miserable 15.6 miles in 2.30 today very windy/wet/hilly/ ave HR 72 %

  • Brian, intresting info on how you run your mara. I start off slow and try to wind things up as the race progresses,

    Stewert, have entered the Loch Ness marathon in Sept, so any info on it will be most welcome, e.g. best pub/meal etc

  • Roy,

    I don't eat out often, but last time I tried it the Snow Goose does decent pub grub, This will be my first marathon, but I have driven the route a couple of times, I hope you've got lots of hills around your neck of the woods, the route is very undulating with a long drag at mile 18

  • Brecon beacons 30 min drive from Cardiff. I spend one Sunday a month running over them, most relaxing and therapeutic. 



  • Nice part of the world, and those hills will make the legs stronger

  • Hi Brian,

    Wanted to say thanks for the input on the training. I'll pretty much do what you suggest as that seems to be how things have gone lately anyway. It's a good phase in that I can just run very easy or a bit harder and not really worry about doing any damage. Legs will be good to go again.

    Got 2 hrs sleep last night and decided to pull the plug on the run today, so will only get 4 days in this week. Absorbing the goodness...seriously, does anyone else feel their legs tingle when they've not run for about 28 hrs? Mine do and It's like an itch I need to scratch...

  • Vt, a pleasure. I'm with you on the scratchy itch thing. I'm gonna experience today too cos I am on a rest day. Cross country tomorrow will bring up about 50 for the week. Happy weekend everyone.
  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Week 1 of P&D finished 54M

    15M this morning was 8.5M @ 9:00 ish and last 6.5M @8:15 ish which worked out at 8:40 average @ 73%

  • Mace, Good running and pacing, only 17 more to go

    VT, I don't know about itchy legs but I do get a bit restless if I don't get a run in

    Brian, I would also like to thank you for your input on this thread, 

    Long run today, decided to do an out and back up to Daviot Woods, which meant that there was going to be some hills.  Once again the HR Monitor went haywire after mile 8, could it be a battery issue, I've been using ECG gel and I regulary clean it, I'll need to get in touch with Garmin and see what they say.

    Stats for the run: 16 miles 2hrs 59mins @ 11mm  


     I'm relaxing now with a cuppa and a mince pie, it is Christmas after all image

  • Nice long runs, NN, mace  and Stewart.

    VT, what did you do to get only 2hrs sleep image? Probably a good idea to scrap the run. I only ran 5 times this week -- too much work and needed my sleep too.

    Still 52.4 miles for the week.

    And the best thing: a 10 miler today with 9 @ 80%, averaging 8mm exactly. Very happy my pace is back where it belongs. Oh, what a difference a few degrees and no snow make! My 2nd 80% run of the week. Too bad I forgot to set the Garmin to auto splits but it felt easy and I bet there wasn't much drift. Happy image

  • Anytime.

    Xcountry for me. 4.6miles of shear pleasure, not!

    Difference was this time I could change gear. When the going improved from mud to trail I had a kick to pass a few.

    No stats as Garmin was dead. I'm told 4.6 miles in just over 33mins
  • HI Chickadeee,

    NIce to see the mojo returning at the higher gear. And not a bad week at 50+ miles.

    For the record, I was grading exams until the wee hours. The students think they have it bad taking the test, but there's no relief on the other side either.

    So yesterday I headed out the door with my wife saying I needed to be back in exactly 1 hr! I was planning a 70% run, but midway through the first mile found myself going a bit fast. By 1.5 miles decided I'd just do a mini 80% run. Even with the extended ramp up, I finished at 7 miles @ 7:21 m/m @ Ave HR 161 (80%). My HR did climb along the run, but the two good things were i) my old injury didn't flare at all and ii) I felt super fresh throughout the run and after. I might keep this shorter 80% run in the mix each week and gently ramp distance up.

    Today's run started off fine, but 5 miles from my house my GI tract revolted. Those were honestly the longest miles of my life. But I'm proud to say I held it together all the way home. Talk about a gut check...

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