Overdone it?

Ran 16 miles last Sunday as a LSR as part of what I thought had been a gradual build up - ran 13.5 miles two weeks earleir and have been running 25 - 30 miles a week for a few weeks now with some fast 5 miles and 8 mile and 10 mile runs.

Felt a bit more stiff than expected at top of calves right into back of knee (never been stiff there before!) but also sore right heel and left shin a bit sore too (not really painful just aware of it sometimes when walking).

Took Tuesday off instead of doing scheduled easy 5 mile and rescheduled for tonight - all stiffness now gone but heel and shin still same - should I cancel, go for easy 2 mile (like a warm up and down but without the fast bit), is easy 5 mile okay?

I know this is really up to me but just wonder if anyone has experienced similar and what right approach is?

I'm trainig for the Morecambe Cross Bay Challenge on 12th August and then the Cumbrain HM on 7th October and training has been going really well so don't want to stop if I can help it.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

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Comments

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    Right approach?  RICE.

    Runners' approach?  Up to you.

  • kaffeegkaffeeg ✭✭✭
    Rest! Although you don't need us to tell you that!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Sounds like you've built up too fast. 25-30miles a week is too little total mileage to be knocking out a 16 in one go.

    I bet you do the 16 too fast as well...

    What kind of paces do you do all your runs at? And why have you been loading your big run so much, with not much total mileage to play with?

  • Thanks for all comments. I did nothing until today when went out for a 6 mile 'health check'. Shins seemed to be okay but left heel still some soreness, particularly going down a steep bit, but didn't really affect my running.

    Today ran about 8 min miles after first mile which ran about 8:30. I tend to run at about 8 min 20 secs when go out for a slow run, anything slower seems uncomfortable.

    I've been running since September last year but was just running 2 or 3 times a week and 10 - 15 miles. Was running a 2 mile with middle mile at just above 6 mins, 5 miles at around 7 mins and a 5 or 8 miles at around 8 to 8 min 20 secs miles.

    Now running an easy 5 (8 to 8:20), a tempo 5 (8:30 down to 7 mins), a faster long run (8 to 10 miles) - at about 7:45 and then a long slow run which I had been increasing from 10 to 11.5 to 13.35 to 15 (but got lost so became 16!) at about 8 to 8:20 - only doing this every other week.

    So what should I be doing? 

  • PS Target time is sub 1:35 in half marathon in October - Cross Bay is just a bit of fun I will use as a training run.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Need to know some achieved race times really Skinny. Just so noone quotes paces that are out of sync with your current fitness...

    Did you mean that you do a 2mile run with the "middle mile" at just above 6min miles? There is no middle mile in a 2miler!

    First thought before you fill in the details above, is the classic "too fast" in training cliche.

    A 1:35 half is 7:15 per mile pace. Therefore, your easy pace should be about 8:30-9+

    The McMillan race calculator gives some ideas on zones to aim for...but is usually a bit too fast on the easy zone..so i've edited it a bit from there

    But let's hear your current race paces first to be sure image

     

  • Hi Stevie G - you seem remarkably helpful!! So I'll give you as many details as I can.

    I'm 44, 6ft tall and only weigh about 10.5 stone. (never been any heavier - just don't seem to put on any weight - most people would say I was lucky!).

     When I was 13 I did the Cumbrian Run (it was in April then) in 1hr 35 - since then I have done it a further 6 times but never beaten this time (but never trained for it as hard (consistently) as this year). It is the 30th Cumbrian Run this year and my years are starting to clock up so my whole training plan since last September has been building up to this run to beat 1hr 35 before I get too old (I know this is not that demanding a time but as each year passes I must be sneaking past my best).

    So race times - before this latest effort to beat the time I dedicated about 18 months towards beating the time about 5 years ago - I ran a 4.5 mile race in 31 mins 7secs on about 6 months training then ran the GNR in 1:48 in a banana suit the year it was really hot and a couple of people sadly died - this drained me a bit and couldn't really train effectively for next four key weeks  before the Cumbrian Run and ran 1:36 (aaarggghhh!!). I then changed jobs and the running stopped until this latest 12 months.

    The only race I have done since starting again was Brampton to Carlisle 10 mile in early November after about 2 months of 10 to 15 miles a week - ran 75:31 which was okay as a stepping stone.

    In training I have raced against myself over 5.3 miles and run 6:50/mile (about 4 weeks ago) and have done same over 8 miles and run 7:15/mile (this was week before I ran the offending 16 miles)

    I still have 12 weeks proper training before taper before Cumbrian Run so quite happy to start again with something sensible.

    What would you suggest? I've seen you have written lots of threads on training and it all sounds really good stuff - would be interested in following your advice.

    Thanks!

     

  • Sorry - never answered the middle mile of two question - often during week I am very short of time - rather than do no run I did a half mile warm up, flog myself for a mile, then half mile slow down - not really very sensible but have dropped this from my schedule now I am up to 25 - 30 miles; it was really to force some pace back into my old legs which has worked.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Mr skinny, you're a stone ligher than me, and i'm pretty slim, at only 1 inch taller, so no wonder about your profile name image

    That explains about the middle mile too!

    As you're looking to hit 7.15 pace for 13.1miles, and you're already capable of hitting that exact pace for an 8miler in training (presumably accurately measured on a GPS), I'd say you're well on track to your goal.

    I would never be able to handle 8miles in a row at my half marathon goal pace!

     What exertion level did that feel like? Was it medium hard, or were you wrecked afterwards?

    Your long runs definitely sound too fast. A long run in the 8:30- 9+ mixer would suit, as it's about time on your feet, not pace.

    Then I'd suggest some target pace reps, but that's a bit difficult, as you're already doing 8miles at the intended pace, so giving you a couple of miles at that pace wouldn't be beneficial...and blindly picking you quicker paces wouldn't necessarily help either.

    therefore, i'll wait until i see your answers to the questions in this post, and we'll go again image

     

  • SG - when I joined this site had just watched some programme on telly about Men who have Fat Women Fetishes, and their Feeders and people pay to watch them be fed - my friend (also skinny) suggested we should set up a site for Fat Women who Fancy Skinny Men and we could let them pay to watch us refuse to eat a cucumber sandwich!image

    Exertion after 8 miles at 7.15 - hard but not wrecked

    Exertion after 5.3 miles at 6.50 - wrecked

    Exertion after 16 miles at 8.20 - not that bad - but obviously I have suffered afterwards so need to tone this down - the main risk to me beating 1:35 now seems to be injury or illness.

    My training has gone better than I thought - I don't really want to unnecessarily risk getting injured but I think I could get close to 1:30 with a good 12 weeks of the right training - would that help you come up with some targeted reps pace?

    My training to date is obviously too hard and I need to keep up the training regularity but lose some of the intensity - I think I've done the hard work getting the pace and miles in my legs - now I need to make sure I keep my legs in tact but keep the pace and miles in them.

    Look forward to your reply and thanks.

    PS 7.15 hits about 1:35 - I 'need' to be sub 1:35 so need to be down around 7.10. 

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Long term it would be great to help you build a schedule encompassing 3 key sessions of your week, a Long slow run at easy pace, a tempo pace run incorporating Marathon Pace, and then targetted reps ranging from half marathon pace down to quicker.

    However, for that kind of set up, you'd need to have a much higher mileage which would take longer to build.

    For your aim of sub 1hr 35, i don't think you need too much work, just a case of getting the longer runs slower, and not working too hard, and risking injury in the quality session.

    If that 5.3mile run left you wrecked, that's probably quite a close substitute to a 5mile race. Presuming that it didn't wreck you due to the terrain, as I know you have some hilly regions up your way!

    Therefore, if your 5mile race pace is 6:50, perhaps your 10k zone is 6:52.

    From that you'd get a Half Marathon pace (HMP) of around 7:10 and a marathon pace (MP) of 7.30. Your easy pace would be in the 8:30-9 mixer.

    Getting that long run slower, to a comfortable 8:30+ pace for 13miles is key. Get the stamina built without mashing yourself.

    Then i'd like to see you do EITHER one of the 2 sessions in Week 1

    • 10miler, with 3miles easy pace, 6miles MP, and 1mile cool down

    or

    • 10mile run, with 3miles easy, 3x2miles at HMP (7.10) with 2mins between reps) 1mile cool down

    So 1 long run, 1 of the above sessions as quality, and then 2 x 4-6milers at easy pace.

    I think that would be a decent bet for week 1, and if you fancy that, report back and see how you're getting on.

    I'd expect you to find the quality session medium hard, but if you found it too easy, we'd tweak things for week 2

    Let me know how that sounds

     

  • Thanks - sounds easy but I need to step back a bit to be sure my body is in okay shape so I'll go for it and report back next Sunday/Monday.

    Cheers

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    It may well be too easy, but it can always ramp up in future weeks. If you start off too hard, and it does sound you've been a bit too hard recently, injury and disillusionment await!

    Forgot to say...obviously it depends on where you can fit in the sessions, but if you're only doing the 4 sessions i suggest, is probably sensible to keep the long run and the hard session as far apart as poss..maybe sunday - wed , and then slot the 2 other runs in in between

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    how's the first week been Skinny Love?

  • Pretty good and feels about right.

    Monday - 5.3 miles in 7:57/mile not sure if your Easy meant easy for me or the Long Slow Run Easy so went for an Easy for Me.

    Wednesday - 3 miles,6 miles, 1 mile - total 10 miles. First 3 in 8:15, next 6 in 7:27 and last mile in 8:40. Found it quite hard to find the 7:30 pace after the slow first 3 miles but range for the miles was between 7:25 and 7:32 so I presume that was okay. I was comfortable at that but also could feel my legs a little towards the end so presume that is Medium Hard.

    Friday 4.4 miles in 44mins - got home late about 8 pm and so tried to do run and dog walk combined - dog wouldn't go fast enough!! Probably okay for training run though as just supposed to be Easy run anyway.

    Sunday 13 miles in 1 hr 53 mins so 8:42 mile and this was a steady pace for whole run.

    Quite excited about what my plan is going to be for this week!!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Skinny, that's a good week to start things off, exactly what we're looking for. You've laid a good structure down, and pretty much hit the paces necessary. If you can run the Friday session without the dog this week that'll be ideal!

    So, that's week 1 done. The target race is at the end of week 14.  Is it a hilly half out of interest?

    I'd propose the following for week 2

    Monday        5.5mile easy   (8min + pace)

    Wednesday  Half Marathon pace rep session
    10mile total, including 3miles warm up, then 3 x 2miles at HMP with 2mins recovery in between. 1 mile warm down.

    When i do a similar session, I tend to have a quick break after the 3mile warm up, to get geared up. Then it's a straight 2miles HMP, 2mile recovery session, done 3 times.

    This should feel like a good workout, but shouldn't leave you shattered after.  7.10 pace for the HMP, so 14.20 a repeat.

    Friday  4-5miles  easy pace   (8min + pace)

    Sunday 13miles easy pace   (anywhere between 8.30-9 is fine)

    The Wednesday session is the key, and as well as reporting back your splits, let me know the exertion you felt, and how you recover the next couple of days.

    Then we get a good guide of what tweaks to make

    Let me know how this week's plan strikes you.

     * The 8+ min miling for the shorter easy paces, can be back in the 8.30+ domain as well. Key is to keep it easy, as you have Tuesday to run hard, and sunday to run long.

  • Sounds good - I had thought myself that your alternate plan for week one would probably do me for week 2.

    One quick question - for the two minute (not miles image - see above) recovery sessions do I actually stop and rest or am I jogging or?? Never done this kind of training session before so will be interested to see how it goes.

    Will report back next Sunday night/Monday morning.

    I've also learnt that stretching exercises every day on my calves are important to protect all the surrounding muscles and am trying to do this before and after the runs but also on the rest days - wandering round work on my heels and getting some funny looks!

    Finally I posted on a separate thread that in w/c 17/09 (third last week of training before race) I am having to go to Denver for a business meeting. Had a number of concerns but most responses I got suggested no problems with running out there and that main issue might be a bit of jet lag when I got back that messes with race week minus two training.

    Nevertheless race week minus three training is unlikely to be as high mileage level wise as I originally expected so your plan is probably going to taper (mileage level wise) from race week minus four whether that was your intention or not - just thought you should know.

    Thanks for all your help, advice and general interest so far.

    Cheers, Skinny

     

  • Sorry - missed your hilly question - nothing horrible - I would describe it as undulating, most of the hills are fairly short and moderate inclines - its not fell running! - however I try and make sure at least some of my runs are over similar terrain because its hilly enough that I need to be able to run up hills without it being a new experience for my legs!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    image good spot....2mins recovery not 2miles, we want to make the session challenging after all!   You're ok to stop after the 2miles for the recovery, i reckon you'll need the breather image

    Just thought i'd ask about the course, as getting you sub 1hr 35 fitness shouldn't be tough at all, but if it's a course like Everest we'd have problems!

    As long as everything's going to plan, a taper would kick in the week of the half, not 3 weeks before. However, most of the training will be in the bank by your trip, so should be fine.

    Stretching wise, i'd get into the habit of covering off all these bases after every run...there's loads, so maybe mix and match each time...

    • achilles (dips and raises on the stairs)
    • calves  (2 or 3 variations of the standing calf stretch, one with bent legs, others without)
    • groin (sat on floor, feet together)
    • hamstring  (crossed legs, reaching with hands down shin)
    • back  (lie on floor, tuck both legs into stomach, variation is one leg on floor, other leg tucked into stomach)
    • quad (standing upright, hold ankle and hold behind your backside (if that makes sense!))
    • glute (you might need to check these on google as harder to explain)

    so that should cover off the injury prevention side of things...

     

  • Mid Week Update

    Monday – 5.5miles in 8:18 miles steady pace – felt quite hard at times, stiffness never quite left my legs from Sunday’s 13 miles – however no recovery time needed so was still an easy run. Also I think when I go out and run 5 miles at 8+min/mile I’m always expecting it to be like a stroll in the park so psychologically I’m always a bit surprised when it starts feeling like a bit of an effort!

    Wednesday morning - woke up with sore throat, runny nose and a general weak feeling (even more than normal!) - my wife has been in bed with it for 4 days (days 2 and 3 seemed worst) and before her one of my daughters was ill so this is not a running related virus just an unavoidable irritation of living with 4 other people. (It would help if it wasn't so flipping wet and cold!!)

    Wife getting better now so I'm thinking just miss out the training till I pick up and aim for starting week 2 again on day one of week 3 - or sooner obviously if I feel better sooner.

    Agree?

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    how you feeling pal?

    yep, certainly don't try and train through illness mate, no good in that at all.

    And yes we're early on, so just take week 2's schedule for week 3.

     

    ps, if you ever are expecting a schedule or session update from me, and i haven't posted...just drop me a PM (personal message) and i'll get on it...make sure i don't miss posting this way

  • Much better than I did last Thursday and Friday where felt like I had proper flu but was up and about again by Saturday so not that bad. Stil left with nasty cough and breathing irritation but will see how it goes.

    Ran a 5.5 last night in 8:16/mile and wasn't that hard but felt like it would be a struggle to go much faster. Doesn't seem to have made me any worse.

    I'm going to see how I feel come Wednesday - if I feel slightly better I will go for week 2 schedule - if not then I'll go easy 5.5 on Wednesday and Friday and do Wednesday's Quality Run on Sunday instead of the LSR.

    Will report back Sunday/Monday

    Cheers

    PS Scary photo!

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    image I wondered how long i could get away with this one before someone said that!! The guyson my own thread haven't noticed yet!

    If you're not feeling good this week...but still want to run, then just tick over with easy running instead.

    you can pick up properly again next week...although geting the long run in on sunday would be very useful.

  • Okay - felt not too bad on Wednesday so decided to go for it.

    So full week report as follows.

    Monday night 5.5 easy(8:16/mile)

    Wednesday night - 3 mile easy warm up 8:30/mile

    First 2 mile interval 14 minutes - 7 mins, 7 mins

    Second two mile interval 14 mins 10 secs - 7 mins, 7 mins 10 secs

    Third two mile interval 14 mins 30 secs - about 7:15 per mile but missed the mile split.

    No rest after third interval but jogged back in about 9 mins 20 secs.

    Found it hard, particularly third session but never done this training before so may have been that, or perhaps simply went too fast first two miles - nevertheless a little disappointed that third interval performance tailed off.

    Friday - easy 5.5 miles - about 8:16 secs

    Sunday 13.1 miles in 1hour 53 mins - 8:36/mile.

    Feel a little weary tonight but looking forward to learning next week's schedule!

    Going camping next Friday afternoon till Sunday afternoon so may need to mess around with the Mon, Wed, Fri, Sunday sessions - may go Monday, Wed, Thursday and do LSR Sunday night but will have to see.

    Cheers

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Hi Skinny,

    looks a decent week. I think you learnt on Wednesday that keeping to pace is essential on these calculated sessions, as if you go too fast early on, you'll suffer later.

    We'll keep things fairly similar intensity wise, a slightly extended version of week 1's Wednesday session to see where you are with that. And slightly tweaked days with your trip

    M             6m easy
    W            10.5m, with 3m easy to steady warm up || 6.5miles MP || 1m cool down
    Th            6m easy
    Su           13m easy

    I was going to add some strides (short relaxed sprints), but won't this week, as you're running on the Thursday not the Friday.

  • Thanks - re the pace main problem is my Garmin is all over the place - I feel like I'm running at same pace and one minute its showing 7:20 the next minute its showing 6:40 and if I go under some trees I can go out to 8mins plus which makes finding a steady 7:10 pace a bit hit and miss - I think the first mile I actually ran 0.95 miles in about 6:45 pace then jogged the last 0.05!!

    Nevertheless you are right - I learnt a lot about the third session v the first session and next week I will be aiming to hit on all 3.

    Anyhow this looks like a nice week and I have the added excitement that it will be my first ever 35-40 mile training session week!

    Thanks again and I'll report back Monday. Cheers, Skinny.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Skinny, any prospect you can find a track to do such sessions on? That way you can pace yourself per lap as well...

    Otherwise, learning to "feel" a certain pace is something that comes with time..

    We'll see how this 35mile week comes out, and how you feel. We can make tweaks accordingly on your feedback.

    I won't necessarily give you the same sesion every other week, as keeping things fresh is key as well.

  • Monday – 6.2 miles in 8:25 miles steady pace – felt okay

    Wednesday – 3 miles in 8:28 steady pace. 6.5 miles in 48:01. 1 mile in 8:47.

    6.5 Mile splits 7:32, 7:28, 7:10, 7:15, 7:24, 7:27,Last 0.5 in 3:45.

    The 7:10 was a result of going  up quite a steep hill and working on maintaining my pace then letting myself run down the other side freely which I think also increased my general speed once back on flat. After that each mile was a deliberate slow down to try and get back to 7:30 pace, not because I was tired.

    Friday Morning (6am!!! – unheard of for me) 6.1 miles at 8:31 – mother in law fell down escalator in M&S on Thursday so spent Thursday night staring at her leg in a plaster cast at the hospital when should have been out running!

    My Achilles (which was my original reason for starting this thread) is still bothering me a little – not sure if it’s a niggle or an ache but when I did my stretching over the stairs this morning on the upward stretch got quite a sharp pain – not running now till Sunday evening so hopefully that’s two nights sleep and nearly three days for recovery.

    Sunday – 13.14 miles in 8:43/mile – same Achilles problem when stretching when finished but no real issue when running – got the frozen peas on it for 10 mins and seems to have eased today.

    Total Miles for Week 35.9 (a new record for me)

    Re this week training plan – I am going to the Olympic athletics on Saturday night (very excited - lifetime ambition and looks like being a cracking night) so Sunday will be spent getting up and driving home from London – as the tickets cost me a lot of money (our money) I won’t be getting home and telling my wife that I’m off out for a 2 hour run; so ideally need a schedule where Sunday’s run is only an easy effort this week.

    Cheers, Skinny

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Skinny, sounds a good week, but a few increasing warnings about the achilles. Make sure you do the 3 or 4 stretches for both achilles and calves, the 2 are intertwined. Make sure you do these throughout the day, not just after runs. I can only go from your feedback, so you'll need to be ready to judge when to back off and rest at times.

    In light of the achilles, and also because of your sunday date, let's tweak things a bit this week.

    This introduces the term "steady", which I figure is 7.45-8.15zone for you. This is distinctive from your 8.30+ pace which is "easy"

    M   6.5m easy
    W  12m  including 2miles easy, 8miles steady, 2miles easy
    F   6.5m easy
    Su  8-10m easy (dependent on time available)

    Total  33-35.

    Lower intensity but slightly more distance on the Wednesday run. You have license to run the 8mile part anywhere in between 7.45 and 8.15 pace.

    Do you have access to a track by the way? As along the line it'll be useful to get you running at paces quicker than HM pace.

  • That should work - re the achilles I understand that it is totally up to me, just needed to make you aware in case it affected the plan.

    I do have access to a track (8 lane good quality) - about 1.25 miles from house - although have to pay to use so wouldn't want to be training there all the time. Also currently I have no idea of when available for public use but I'll ring them at lunch time to find out.

    One thing I meant to say in my review of week is that I think one effect of running more but at a slower pace is that the 7:30 pace on Wednesday felt harder (or perhaps faster would be more correct) than it used to when I was training at a quicker pace. So some running at in excess of HM pace would seem to help deal with that issue.

    Of course my achilles seems to be telling me that the training I am doing is about the limit my body can take at moment!

    I'll report back next Monday - cheers.

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