RW Forum SIx – 3.30 – 4.00

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  • I was going out for a recovery run this morning , but was knackered after a pretty crap night of sleep. Didn't settle very well last night and again my legs were aching like I had done 20 miles. So I left it and now I have had my tea and am going out to meet up with my pal so that's that....tomorrow.

  • Good work Big G enjoy the scotch eggs!

    stuart, good luck on the treadmill, full of admiration for anyone that can run for that long on a treadmill! I've done a few ten milers and like you can cope much better with something on the TV.

    enjoying my rest day today, will try parkrun again tomorrow fingers crossed flooding is down

  • I might go for it then Nell if I can get it off work!  I was going to do the Lossiemouth Half Marathon at end of February as it's where I got my PB last year and it's such a beautiful course, but I don't think I'm really half marathon fit just now so March would be a much better time for me.

  • G- I can't believe you can do 16 miles after work!  I am exhausted at the thought, well done.  I always leave my long runs until days off from work.

    Stuart- I also can't believe you are doing 18 miles on a treadmill.  Gosh that's some mission.

    Andrew- enjoy your park run.

    I did a very slow 35 minute jog tonight as my achilles tendon was feeling bad the last couple of days but touch wood it feels OK today and felt fine on my run.  If it feels OK tomorrow I'm going to parkrun.

  • Ali - I tend to finish work at around 3 or 4 on a Friday (it isn't always possible) so it's a bit easier for me.  When I do get the LSR done on a Friday, I always like it as I feel I've got it out of the way.

  • Ah, that's quite nice then G to make use of your early finish

  • Good going Big G, now i have no excuses! 18 miles or bust. A cold beer and a scotch egg would go down lovely right now. Will have to make do with a cup of tea instead.

    Hope everyones weekend is a good one, all quiet here on the rig. Roll on Monday and the flight home.

     

  • Ali, interesting piece in runners world feb issue suggesting that achillies pain may be linked to weak glutes. May be worth looking at? 

    Finally broke my parkrun duck today. Due to flooding, it was an alternative route and slightly longer 5.3k and included an incline for the first mile (tho we did the run down it for the final mile) it sounds as though this will be the case for next month or so as it takes ages for the field to drain. Ran in 22.34 which was 6.50 per mile pace or 4.15 per k. so I think that my 5k time would have been around 21.15 fingers crossed by the time we are running the normal course I can knock a little more off that time.

    18miles tomorrow 

  • Thanks Andrew, I will definitely take a look for that article.  image

    Well done at parkrun too that's a great time for your first go at it in those conditions.

    Stuart I take it alcohol is banned completely whilst you're out at work?  At least it's like an enforced detox- you'll be healthier than any of us!

    So this morning I went to do Aberdeen parkrun.  It is a nice course along the coast but today was terrible conditions for it, high winds and freezing, could tell it was going to be quite unpleasant.

    However I was feeling in quite good form and no pain from my achilles today so went for it.  First ten minutes I still felt bloody frozen to the bone, never really properly warmed up today.  The first half a km or so runs down one stretch of the beach (on the promenade not the sand) then you turn back on yourself round a steep corner up a slight hill.  Then it is roughly 2km up the coast which I felt really good on, passed a lot of people, was feeling strong.  Then at the top you turn a steep corner again to double back on yourself and run down the coast the other way- as soon as we turned this corner oh god it was hell.  Wind blowing straight in your face, and as it was so windy, lots of sand had been blown right from the beach and formed little dunes on the path all the way along.  So running through sand another challenge. A couple, male and female, running together passed me on this stretch but I made it my mission to just stay tucked in behind them.  Partly so I could use them as a wind shelter... sorry, couple!

    Back to the turning point from the start of the race and another half km or so running in the other direction again towards the finish.  The last half km I found a reserve within my self to run a really strong finish.  I passed the couple I'd been running behind, and had a sprint finish with a man who was about 6"4.  I am quite smallish.  It must have looked funny.  He finished in front of me but only by a whisker.  I congratulated him at the end but said his long legs gave him a natural advantage.

    I stopped my watch on finishing at looked down at it: 22:59!  I was over the moon at what I thought was a new PB by 3 seconds, but in those conditions I really thought I'd be slower.

    Sadly when I got home and checked the published results they say 23:03 for me which I'm a bit miffed about as I was certain I was under 23 and certainly not over it by a whole 4 seconds.  But I guess that's the thing with low key events and I can't expect the timing to be totally accurate on them.

    So my official PB still stands at 23:02 though I know now I'm capable of running under 23 and in better conditions know I could have taken at least another 10 seconds off that.

    Came 63rd/298 runners today and 8th/133 women so pretty chuffed with that.  The Aberdeen parkrun is really growing in numbers which is great.

    Looking at the results of those just behind/ahead of me this morning most of them have PBs in the 21-22 minute range so I feel I stuck with some pretty strong runners and really enjoyed it.

  • Well done Ali, thats great running,Bad luck on the timing, as you say you know you can run a sub 23. i have yet to do a park run, will look to do one this time home. I would like to transfer my 5k treadmill time to the road.

    Alcohol is banned from work, in fact Mauritania is a dry country, so its a month with no drink and its also much harder to snack, which helps. The only problem being is that i tend to overindulge when im home. Pork pies being one weakness image

    Andrew, it looks like we are having the same weekends running. I did a 5k yesterday and have a lovely 18 miles tonight on the Dreadmil. Loaded up my ipod with podcasts, Audio books and fingers crossed the rugby or football is on the telly.

  • Hi Andrew, Great time on the parkrun!

    Hi Ali, I would go with your time, which is more accurate as you are relying on someone else taking down the time for the official time which is not spot on....well done!

    Stuart, I take my hat off to you sir!

    I have had a funny weekend and had to get runs in where I can. I was out Friday night. I got up Saturday and ran just under 4 miles averaging about 7:20 min/miles, then got home everyone jumped in the car. Kids went to their swimming lesson and then I ran another 4 miles with my wife averaging 9:40 min/miles. Had a miserable afternoon at Easter Road, where at one point I seriously thought the time would have been better spent on a run!

    Got up this morning early and ran 7 miles, I didn't look at the watch to see if I could pace myself to 7:30 min miles and come away with 7:33,34,25,31,18,50,15, this I was pretty happy with as the 7:50 mile was uphill so expected that to be slower.

  • Some great running from everyone these last few days.

    Andrew - great first parkrun. I sympathise with the hills as my local parkrun has nothing but hills and a 5k time with a 21 at the start is some way off. Unless of course I cheat and find a flat parkrun.

    Ali - great running from you and great report. It must be very exhilirating to run by the sea. Certainly when I am back home in Ireland it gives me an incredible feeling of being free and one with the world. I would go with your time for the parkrun. There is always a couple of seconds either way on these things. Amazing what we do for a few seconds ....

    Stuart - hats off to you. 18 miles on a treadmill. I would go insane.

    Nell - great run this morning from you. Sometimes it is those runs where you do not look at anything that are the best.

    Big G - 16 miles after work. Amazing and it all looks so easy for you at the moment. Trust you enjoyed the few beers over the weekend. You deserve them.image

  • Whatever was going on with my garmin has sorted itself out and it loaded up the data from Thursday night in the worst rain I have ever been out in.

    My plan had 5 runs for this week but with work being busy this week and feeling a little tired I decided that I would live with 4 runs and see where the weekly mileage ended up. No point stressing too much about having to follow the plan to the letter.

    Having missed Wednesday, I added a few miles into Thursday night.

    After a mile warm up, I did 9 miles alternating between 9 and 8 min miles. Was going to do a 1 mile cool down but the dowmpour cut this short.

    Spliits for the 9 miles were :

    8:42; 7:57; 8:47; 7:55; 8:47; 7:57; 8:47; 7:53; 8:59

    Not too bad overall. A good workout as adjusting the pace was tougher than I would have thought.

    My weekend's plan was 4 miles comfortable on Saturday and 15 miles on Sunday with 7 at MP.

    I thought that the key was to get the 15 miles in so moved this run to Saturday.

    I ran 2 miles slow, 4 at MP, 3 comfortable, 3 at MP and a final 3 slow.

    9:05; 8:54; 8:00; 7:53; 7:53; 7:54; 8:52; 9:07; 8:57; 8:06; 7:58; 8:01; 8:56; 9:24;  9:14; 

    I have to admit that this was tougher than it should have been. I got my timing of the run out by about an hour and did not bring extra fuel with me. It meant the last few miles were tough as I needed a tad more energy than I had stored. Lesson learned for the future.

    To day I went out again. I did 7 miles at 8:11min/mile pace.

    8:22 / 8:06 / 7:53 / 8:03 / 8:28 / 8:21 / 7:57

    So tonight I am feeling a little tired.

    38 miles this week from 4 runs which is only 1 mile less than my plan. image

     

  • Stuart, 18miles on the treadmill????? Bloody hell that's hardcore, there was some good sport on today (depending on who you support I guess isn't that right Nell!) hope you got to see some of it

    Ali good running, can understand your frustration but I'd go with Nells suggestion.

    Nell and Carl some good pace from both of you!

    my 18miles went well this morning, maintained a steady slow pace for first half then picked it up (possibly too quick) but finished with a fast last mile. miles panned out as... 9.55; 10.06; 9.59; 10.10; 9.47; 9.46; 9.54; 9.39; 9.26; 9.21; 8.59; 9.04; 9.03; 8.47; 8.47; 9.11; 7.32 Pretty pleased to be able to knock out that 7.32 in mile 18 image. Weekly mileage of 46

     

  • Evening all. Just a quick check in, will read back tomorrow and see what everyone has been up to.

    Friday I went for a 5 mile fell run with the mutt which included some swimming as it was really wet and muddy. Harvey really enjoyed it and that is his PB distance ! This morning, Mrs C, Harvey and myself went out on a nice 5 mile jaunt in Wharncliffe Woods, it was a lovely day weatherwise. This afternoon, I did 20.2 miles @ 9:34 which included 5 decent climbs. The last 2 miles were hard going but happy to have finished my second 20 miler of the campaign.

  • Hi all

    Stuart good luck with your 18 miles.  That's got to be brutal on a treadmill.  When I used to do longer runs at the gym I used to bring my iPad and watch programmes/films on it to pass the time, I quite enjoyed that.

    Nell- good running from you and for just getting it done when you can you've got a fair few miles in.  Weather has been miserable though, I wouldn't fancy an afternoon out at the football.

    Carl you have hit very good weekly mileage.  To be honest I never did much more than that when marathon training never mind just near the start of it.

    Andrew- are you finding your long runs manageable at a slower pace now?

    Carter- I have just been talking about how I'd like to have a dog image  I would love a running companion as my boyfriend is not into it at all and the one time I tried to take him out on a run he moaned non stop.

    I just did a 40 minute recovery run on the treadmill at the gym tonight because it was freezing and pouring rain outside and I couldn't face the thought of that.  Running hard in the horrible weather yesterday left my legs a bit tired too so they needed an easy run.

    I am finding it interesting that despite the fact I've done relatively low mileage for the last couple of months and have really dropped off the radar in terms of long runs, I have got some really good results over shorter distances.  My 4 mile race on New Years Day and my parkrun yesterday were two of the best races I've had in ages.  I am thinking that for shorter distances, it seems the quality of training matters more than the quantity.  Though I have not ran a huge amount of miles I have been doing a fair bit of speed work and intervals (mainly on treadmill) and that seems to have helped me greatly over these short distances.  Though I imagine if I did a HM just now it would be painfully slow.  Anyone found similar?

  • Ali, yes and no... I find it much easier than previously to run at 10min mile but as my run today shows, maintaining it for the entire run is challenging!  Know it's suggested that you slowily speed up over the course of the run but I don't think I shoud be running as quick as I was. Part of me thinks it's good practice but I know ive struggled both previous marathons and one possible reason for this is that I run too fast in training and so my body/legs are gone by the day of the run

    i certainly agree with you regarding the quality over quantity for shorter distances. I am planning on running 2-3 marathons this year then next spring I want to focus on 10k's any half marathons so will drop my mileage quite a bit and focus short tempo and interval runs

  • Good moning all, Suvived the treadmill (Just). 18 miles in 2:41, the furthest i have ever run. It was hard, boredom was the biggest problem, Wokred my way through pod casts and audio books. We had the football round up on th TV so had some distracton there. Even then it became an exercise in mental strength.  Feeling a bit drained and sore today. Already had to climb the mast this morning, that was sore.

    Thats the last Treadmill run for a while, i am leaving Maurtiainia tonight (Fingers Crossed) and have a month at home to get some decent road miles under my belt. Going to try and improvre my consistance with my pace as i tend to speed up and find myself runnig too fast.  

    Nell I assume you're a Hibs fan then. As you can expect, we tend to have mainly Old firm fans out here, with a smattering of Aberdeen suporters.

    Ali, i have a dog as well and although shes not one for running, she's a bit big, it was the best thing i ever did. Couldn't be without a dog now.

    Andrew whitch marathons are you plannig on doing? I was thinig of doing one at the end of October, as my dad wants to run another one and it would be nice to do one together.

     

     

     

  • I am running Brighton in April, I may then run Milton Keynes a month later but this would be simply to get another marathon under my belt (fairly local to my) so will entirely depend upon how I feel after Brighton.  I will then run Abingdon marathon in Oct (literally 5miles from my door, tho I don't think ill run there as a warm up somehow!) plus its as flat as they come so real chance of a PB.

    Next year ill skip the spring mara and aim to run an off road autumn one such as Beachy Head or Snowdon.

    Enjoy your time at home image

  • Hi Andrew, Yes I do believe if I was on a treadmill on Saturday watching that match I would not have lasted ;0)

    I understand about going too hard in training, one of my pals was aiming for 3:30 last year and was running his LSR at about 8:00 min/miles, he ended up dropping out of the Belfast marathon at mile 15. he had a cold before the marathon which hit his training, but I think in retrospect he trained too hard on the LSR.

    I was running my LSR for the Oct marathon at 8:30 and finished 3:20. The 3:15 schedule suggests 8:15-8:20 for the LSR, I will have to see how that goes. I do know that the Castles marathon was undulating and hilly compared to Edinburgh which is pretty flat in comparison so I may tinker with the LSR, I don't want to be knackered before the marathon, but at the same time want to try and break 3:15. I will be running with a similar type of beast as your brother in law Andrew, so I will have to be ready for him!

    Hi Stuart, I am actually a Birmingham fan, my son is the hibbie and I am an honoury fan....I enjoy suffering! I sometimes take my son along to the Edinburgh Rugby when kids clubs etc don't clash and one of my colleagues actually mentioned the other week I was cruel and will give the poor lad a complex! The painful part is that Mr Butcher doesn't look like he will make many changes until the summer so we are in for a few more of those games I reckon.

    Hi Ali, I reckon your body has enjoyed the rest, I have found mine has. Another couple of weeks or so and it will be back into it!

  • Stuart - amazing mental strength to do 18 miles on the treddie. Running 26.2 on the road will be no problem now.

    Nell - I think this issue of pace in the LSR is a good one. Clearly it is an LSR so the idea is it is to be slow. But slow is all relative. Hal Higdon suggests that LSR's should be run at 30 - 90 sec slower than MP. Others suggest 9:30 - 10:00 min/mile.

    There are those who can talk about the science of it all. And clearly if you run them all too fast, the body gets no recovery time and then you blow up on marathon day as you push and the tank is completely empty.

    So it is about finding the balance that suits your own needs.

    You were always fast in training last autumn and you came home in 3:20.

    It sort of makes sense though. If you have to run 26 miles consistently at 8min/mile in the marathon, training at greater than 9 min/mile is probablt not going to help. Yes you get the miles in comfortably and the body has plenty of recovery time. But the legs and therefore the body will feel uncomfortable running 60sec/mile faster on race day. They will not be used to it. And throwing a couple of MP miles in is probably not enough.

    My plan takes me up to LSR's of 20 miles with 10 miles of MP thrown in. Then later in the schedule, I am doing 15 and 20 mile LSR's at 8:30min/mile. And the only time I go over 20, I do it real slow. I think this is because that distance in training is considered too far and needs too much recovery time so real slow is real important.

    Now this is all theory.

    Harder in practice. So far I am just about hanging in there. Last week was physically harder but I was also busy at work.

    We will see how long I can stick with it before my body says enough is enough.

    Foryou, another 5 mins on a flat course must be possible. You may not need to go much faster to make it happen.

  • Carl, I'm probably not best placed to add to this, but personally I think the 60-90secs slower for an LSR is the right approach. To be honest, I've always thought your LSRs were too quick but if it's working for you then go for it. However, are you worried that you're already tired so early in your plan?



    I know some good runners, and they basically just do one tempo run per week for the last 6 weeks of a marathon plan, but race fairly regularly at different distances to see how they're doing throughout the plan. Many subscribe to the theory that a lot of people run their slow runs too fast and their fast runs too slow and that theory makes sense to me.



    It's horses for courses though, and basically each person has to do what works for them so if you're happy and you're seeing progress then go for it.



    Please note I'm not trying to be argumentative with the above, but I'm just adding to the discussion as I think my view varies from others on here image. I'm just adding my thoughts, which I know probably don't mean much as I'm slow image
  • Hmmm, interesting reading above.  

    G I would be inclined to agree with you but this is really just based on personal experience!  I have found certainly for training for Loch Ness that any runs over 16 miles or so I was running at 10-10:30 minute mile pace and I know if I pushed it harder than that I would really have been very, very tired and possibly too tired come race day... and then on race day my pace was 9:08 so yes that is at least 60 seconds or so slower than training pace.

    But then Carl- you seem to find your body has the ability to run faster for your LRs and not get too tired/face injury- so this is good.  But I know if it was me I would be over tired and definitely feeling the strain if my long runs were much faster.  I am going to try and stick to roughly 10 min mile pace for all my longer runs pre-Edinburgh as I am going for just under 9 minute mile pace (8:58 to be precise for my 3:55 goal!) on the day there.

  • Carl - My thoughts on this now are that it is more important how you recover from a session. For example, this time last year it was taking me 3/4 days to recover from a long run which I ran at about 10:00 pace. Sunday just gone I did a 20 miler that had a few hills in it and ran it at 9:34 pace. This morning I feel fully recovered, after a rest day yesterday, and am ready to go out again today. I too used to think you ran your long runs too fast but now I am running mine at 30 seconds quicker I am finding it ok (so far). You are now going for a quicker time so obviously all of your runs will be quicker. I say you carry on doing what you're doing now with the caveat that you slow down if you're body tells you to

  • Ali, many on the sub-3 thread do 9min/mile for their LSR and MLR. They need 6:50min/mile on race day so percentage wise this is slower than the difference between 9:00 and 10:30. This then enables them to concentrate and hit the speed sessions in the week as they're not too knackered, and reduces the risk of injury. 

  • I wonder how many threads have this debate. image

    I do think that the speed sessions are realky importnat. I am not yet seasoned enough to know what the optimum pace for my LSR is. I am aiming at 8:45 - 9:00 min for the majority. This feels about right It is about 60 sec slower than MP. 

    I have put a few races in.

    Most important thing is to listen to the body, get enough rest and recovery time, eat the right foods, ....... I am exhausted just thinking about it ....

    Anyway new pair of trainers arrived last night. Straight replacement for my Mizuno Wave Inspire ones that are looking a little worn and mistreated.

    Am not going to break them in tonight. Am planning a track session with 12 x 400m reps at about 6:20pace. We will see .....

  • How was your track session Carl?

    I decided that this week I would get started on the marathon training plan.  I'm a week early for Edinburgh but that's no harm.

    4 miles steady with a few strides as called for by plan.  I am following the RW Intermediate Plan as I did for Loch Ness as it did me fine then.  Though for Loch Ness I underdid the miles on quite a few weeks.  Though it didn't seem to do me any harm at all so I guess I know it can be flexible enough.  The long run this week is only 9 miles and having done that recently at least it's not too intimidating to start off with.  I am quite excited to begin again properly on the old mileage!

    I am still toying with the idea of the Kinloss to Lossiemouth Half Marathon which is in just under 6 weeks time.... I know I'm not really that prepared for a HM just now but thinking that 6 weeks into marathon training I will be better prepared.  I loved it last year because the course was beautiful and I got my PB there.  What do people think should I go for it or not?  Maybe my time wouldn't be as good as last year's but I haven't got much on the racing schedule so far this year and would like to get some events lined up.

  • Ali - if you aren't in PB nick then I don't think there us much point in going for it. Maybe plan another one a few weeks after that ?

    Carl - as we know, 60 seconds slower than MP is acceptable for a LSR, and it it feels about right to you then I say carry on. 

    Question about fuelling - since I started my training plan at the beginning of November, I haven't taken on any food or gels on any of my runs, this includes my medium and long runs. For anything over about 13/14 miles I have taken a drink with me but not for anything less than that distance. As of yet, I don't feel that this has affected me at all, of course I have felt tired towards the end of the long runs but I was feeling tired last year when I was fuelling. Now, I know the right thing to do is to take on plenty of food and liquids, or is it ? Have I just been lucky so far and at some stage this will catch up with me ? Or do I just carry on training like this and if there is no adverse affect use this strategy on race day ? Thoughts and comments if you please. Cheers

  • Hi Guys, Thanks for picking that subject up and thanks Carl for highlighting it. I have had a look back through my training schedules for both marathons earlier this year. I do remember when training for Edinburgh in May that slowing down to 9 min/miles was really hard and I can see from my times that I always was quicker than I should have been, usually moving more towards 8:45 and then picking up a bit more on the latter stages of the run. This latter stage was quite conscious as I always feel that if I can finish the last few miles strongly it gives me a bit of a mental boost.

    For the Castles Marathon in October, my training was really pretty erratic due to work being a bit hectic and also training in the summer I found I struggled on a few LSR's, this I think was as I had usually previously spent the night before in an air conditioned computer room and was probably a bit dehydrated. Thus, I struggled on some of these runs. Now, I am not sure whether this helped me in the marathon as I remember starting for the first 12 miles at 7:00 - 7:15 and felt great. I feel if it was not for the hills on that marathon my times on the second half could have been a bit more consistent.

    I think from what we are all saying, we are all different and different things work for different people and what we have to do is find the best solution for ourselves. Talking to my Edinburgh running partner today who once again was talking about pre 3:10 (for me to remind him I am aiming for pre 3:15!) He trains  at about 30 secs over his MP on LSR's. That works for him. He runs a lot of races over his training schedule which he uses as his speed work, he is going to run Alloa and I am pretty sure I'll not be buddying him there (he'll be in the elites!).

    So in all, I think I will start the training in Feb and see how things go and probably start aiming for 8:20-30 and see how things go. Not sure whether I will introduce MP sections on this run. I will certainly be starting back on the hill reps next week, I find these are like a disguised interval session ;0)

    Damn , just lost a choc chip cookie in my tea, sorry must go.....cheers guys!

  • Biscuit rescued!

    Hi Ali, Could you use it as a training run? I think I ran Haddington HM in August and hadn't long started my training. I was just going to use it as a training run but couldn't resist....it hurt, but I loved it ;0)

    See how you feel in a couple of weeks, you're enjoying things at the moment so if you feel up for it go for it....you'll need to get a few extra miles in on your LSR to see how you feel?

    Hi carter, Yes you can get through but you are not getting the maximum out of your run, this is your time to practice with the gels and see what works for you. I find it gives you time to find the right amount you can take and even what flavours work for you. It's all about getting everything right...Do you know gels work for you. If you are fuelling properly through the run you will recover better...

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