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HADD Training Method
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spen, part of me is thinking Coast to Coast sometimes but then reality kicks in
Txs Roy, with my terrain being hilly I hit 80% often and am looking forward to seeing if I can keep it up for a mile and if my average pace does in fact increase.
Carrie, can't help sorry other than to say I don't think 5k max +5 is the best way to work it out. That said I did a MAX test years ago (185) and only made mine 188 after I hit it at the start of this year.
Did a nice 5.5 mile yesterday, following along the lines of how things have improved, 9.12mm average @ 80% MHR !! that would have been high 80's before, or I would have had to drop into the 10mm to keep it the same and although fitness has improved as well, cardio is considerably better, mainly down to at least trying to do as much HADDing as I can.
Andi: you know you'll come over to the dark side soon
Why not do what I did and volounteer to help out at a few Ultras, then see close up how they work, you'll soon get the bug 
as well as having a great time!
11 days left
Carrie: What is your max HR and how did you come by that figure?
Booktrunk: I try to train 70-75% most of the time, as where I do most of my running is hilly and its almost impossible to keep it all below say 70% without actually walking in some places, especially to start with. I elected to work it on the average, as even if I hit say 78% on a hill it will come down on a descent or flat. Its not the ideal way but it has worked for me better than I could ever have imagined when I started earlier this year. I can now drop HR to sub 65% on longer downhills, and easily sub 70 on flats, and for faster paces than I started at. Even tho I use the average, I also do extra long long runs of 4-5 hours at LSR paces which allows the heart to work in the low zones for long periods of time. I reckon that has helped me no end too (well, I like to think it has anyway)
Cheesy i've done 1 ultra and have to say i properly enjoyed it and down for 2 next year now.
I did a test doing 5 * 400m hill sprints that gave me initially 182 max, but then a few days later i did a parkrun and it hit 184 so i've been using that +5, i think i saw that earlier in the post somewhere...
Hi Carrie, well done in your half btw. An easy way to estimate max is take your HM average as 90%. So say your average for the half was 170, your max is going to be 189.
Thanks Brian
My average was 172 which would make 191 and i've been using 189 so close enough. But does this mean i'm running the half too hard? Will i damage myself?
This is the link to my splits (if it works) http://connect.garmin.com/splits/389771548 (you can spot where i stopped for the toilet lol)
Anyway its all moot i'll stick to what i was doing pre race and go from there
Afternoon all.
Life has been getting in the way recently which means not so much running and no time for getting on here. sounds like some good running still taking place though.
I managed 21 miles last week over 3 runs and I still aim to try and increase the mileage, although I'm going on holiday on a few days so that will no doubt not help matters (it is an all inclusive holiday after all
). I went out for a run this lunchtime and did the 5.2 miles @ 73.7% AHR but with a significant improvement in the time, about 50 seconds better. Let's hope thats not a one off. I've also picked up my new road bike so will be getting out and about on that, I just need to balance the cycling and running so that Mrs C doesnt get too unhappy !
Carrie - I don't think you ran the half too hard (and well done). Here are my stats for my last half earlier in the year. The very fact that you will be training using HADD methodology means you will be training at lower race pace for the majority of the time. This builds / extends your lactate threshold so eventually you can run at faster pace and longer. Then when we pull the stops out for a race we are better prepared and even though running at a faster pace than training our bodies can (should be able) to cope with it. Prior to the race all my long runs were at 75% or less with some minor amount of 80% work.
Initial high HR is just adrenalin - I ran the race on pace with most miles getting faster each time and waited to see what the HR was at the end when I uploaded stats.
By the way the time is slightly out - it should read 2:00:03
Dist Split Avg. HR Time
1.00 9:39 152 (83%) 0:09:39
2.00 9:56 148 (80%) 0:19:35
3.00 9:33 147 (80%) 0:29:08
4.00 9:21 146 (79%) 0:38:30
5.00 9:13 153 (83%) 0:47:43
6.00 9:00 156 (85%) 0:56:43
7.00 9:11 155 (84%) 1:05:54
8.00 8:46 156 (85%) 1:14:41
9.00 8:57 162 (88%) 1:23:39
10.00 8:40 162 (88%) 1:32:19
11.00 8:29 166 (90%) 1:40:48
12.00 8:16 165 (90%) 1:49:05
13.00 8:12 165 (90%) 1:57:17
13.12 0:57 155 (84%) 1:58:15
Thanks Bede and what an amazing negative split!!! i bow down, to just keep speeding up like that is very impressive. I'm quite looking forward to seeing what next year brings with some good solid base building over winter
carterusm i know how you feel, life is too hectic at the mo and i'm off on my hols next week
Have a good un and enjoy the new bike.
Cheesy, sounds like a good run and even more satisfying seeing the improvements made already
As for the Dark Side, following Booktrunk's 0-Marathon in 26 weeks thread shouldn't be read by people like me that are easily swayed lol (that's what got me to run a Marathon and she already has 1 Ultra under her belt).
As for helping to Marshall it's the time/expense that would get in the way, nothing like that here on Mull so would mean car ferry and accomadation even for a 1 day event
Carrie, I may have worried you when I mentioned your HR earlier? Guess you are super fit
*Waves at Brian* how's things?
Carter, hope you get on ok with the bike and as for running life and stuff should take precedent but don't leave us! As for the all inclusive holiday, rather than have the waiter bring your drinks why not run round the pool a couple of times then go to the bar? 10 seconds/mile sounds like a great improvement!
Bede, I remember that 3 secons (though thought it was 2?) that's a killer
and as Carrie says, an excellent way to run the splits 
Well, todays first attempt at an 80% run didn't go to plan. Miles 1, 3 & 5 should have been 70% and 2 & 4 @80%. First 'error' was setting my watch to display lap HRR% and not Lap MHR% so just ran faster and faster until about .5 mile when I realised my mistook.
Was hard work and ended up just doing 4 miles..
9:12 @68.62%
9:40 @81.38%
11:07 @75.53%
9:23 @81.91%
AVG pace was 9:50 @76.6% for the 4 miles.
So, my fastest mile was the first so need to sort that out PDQ.
Hi Folks,
I’ve been meaning to report in about my race but as usual life has been busy. I raced this past Sunday on a rolling hill (out and back) course. I did this same course for my only other marathon 2 yrs ago in a time of 3:31. Temps were 52 at the start and lower 70s by the finish. No clouds so it was hot and most of the final 13 miles were directly into 25-30 hr wind (yes, like running into a concrete wall!). So perhaps not an ideal day for a PR (which I did want BTW!...was looking for 3:15 or 7:26 per mile).
So how did things go?
Well, things were kind of ominous even before my first steps. During my warm up, I was doing my PT exercises to get my hip aligned and found my glutes/hamstrings to be very sore (stupidly I went to PT on Friday and against my better judgment did some pretty serious work (hence the soreness)). I ended up feeling those hamstrings for the first 11 miles (thought I might cramp).
So here we go:
1st mile: 7:40 m/m; HR 156 (78%) - felt good (had to back off to keep pace in line)
2nd mile: 7:21 m/m; HR 156 (78%) - was downhill. Felt great…
Miles 3-4: 7:46 m/m; HR157 (79%) - uphill…HR climbing…legs feeling OK (hammy’s hurt) pace
Miles 5-6: (up, then downhill) 7:41 m/m; HR156 (78%)
Miles 7-10: 7:37 m/m; HR 159 (80%) - starting to feel tired already…getting hot out too
Miles 11-13: 7:48 m/m; HR 161 (81%) these were all uphill and were hard
Half: 1:40:54.7 (my goal was for a 3:15 so was about 3.5 minutes slow at this point)
Miles 14-15: 7:15 m/m; HR 161 (81%) - downhill and feeling good again; just starting to pass people
Mile 16: 7:51 m/m; HR 162 (82%) - 30 mph wind in my face…like a hitting a wall…there for the rest of the way - passing people
Miles 17-18: 7:42 m/m; HR 166 (83%) - knowing this is going to be hard as I’m really starting to feel the fatigue but still passing people (and they are literally dead on their feet)
Miles 19-21: 7:40 m/m; HR 168 (84%) - so tired now…wondering how this could be so hard so early...
Mile 22: 7:56 m/m; HR169 (85%) - wind right off the lake into my face…caught a few more runners
Mile 23: 7:55 m/m; HR 172 (86%) - 100 ft climb over this mile…two people walking ahead…cursing at myself that I will not walk! Legs not doing what brain telling them to do…
Mile 24: 7:42 m/m; HR 170 (85%) - caught a few more runners (honestly passing these poor souls was really keeping me alive at this point)…relatively flat here and trying desperately to recover from the hill
Mile 25: 8:12 m/m; HR 176 (88%) - this was the last big hill (160 ft climb) -more runners reeled in; starting to anticipate the finish helped me climb this one
Mile 26: 7:15 m/m; HR180 (90%) - I saw 4 runners ahead…started to pick it up, then got a brief cramp in my calf and nearly fell down…had gas in the tank but balanced speed with not cramping as now both calves were randomly spasming…was terrified I’d have to stop to limp home…but still got 2 of the 4 runners! Loud thought: will this mile eeeeeeeevvvvvvver end?!
Last 0.2: 6:42 m/m pace…HR 185 (~94%)
Final splits: 1st half 1:40:54.7 (32nd overall in race); 2nd half 1:40:21.1 (11th overall); total 3:21:15.9 (final place of 20th overall; yes, a small race!)
HR ave of 163 (83%)for entire race
Overall, my goal was to run 3:15 to qualify for Boston. While I didn’t get that, I am very happy with my effort. Of the finishers ahead of me, only 1 ran a negative split (most slowed nearly 1 minute per mile over the second half of the race (likely due to the wind/heat). So to run a negative split feeling so fatigued was a great feeling for me. I left my guts on the course and honestly don’t think I left too much in the tank. Also, I have to remember I lost 8 weeks of training (didn’t resume again until 8-9 wks out from the race). Perhaps a full training cycle, if completed, will get me to 3:15 or better? Hope springs eternal!
VT brilliant
VT, great report and considering the conditions and missed training a great time! Good work on the negative split considering it was into the wind. Boston 2015 for you then
VT great running, well done
...sounds a tough course with hills, heat and headwind !!
Great running VT - sounds like a well executed race in tough conditions
VT, Take a bow! And recover well.....
VT - fantastic effort. sounds a tough run
Brian - how's things ? I assume you're not the best as you didn't race ?
I've been fighting off a throat infection for a week but so far it hasn't moved to my chest, so not panicking yet. 11.6M on Sunday (MP+45) and 2M at HMP yesterday. One more short run tomorrow ... and then it's my turn on Sunday!
Concerns ... (1) my low mileage - only 38 mpw over the 16 weeks pre-taper (2) being 13 stone (would prefer to be 7+ lbs lighter); (3) some 2nd metatarsal overload on right foot; (4) Man-Flu.
Positives ... (1) I think I've done the key sessions: enough long runs (18.5, 19.5, 20, 20.3, 20.3, 22.3) ... two 16M runs at MP ... plus 4 races 2x5K, 1x10K and 1xHM; (2) I think I have a realistic MP/maraHR in mind and enough experience of late-stage marathon pain to stick to it in the early stages; (3) I don't feel over-trained.
We shall see!
mace ...I believe that Brian will be destroying the Amsterdam route on Sunday!
VT - absolutely brilliant
Great going VT
Thanks, Everyone!
It's pretty cool to have you all in my corner. My running life is pretty solitary so it means a lot to have such great support.
Surprisingly, my legs didn't get totally destroyed in terms of DOMS this time around. After my first race I had trouble walking for 3 days. I have been sore, but much less this time around and today I'm able to walk stairs without too much pain
.
Dr. Dan, you summed my situation up perfectly. That's how I looked at it too and why I feel good about how things turned out. I think I might target a spring marathon (we have a nice one here that has several thousand runners and is laid out over the places I normally train). One negative of the race I just did was it only had 300-400 runners and I ended up running alone the whole race with very little crowd support. Would have been great to run in a pack.
I think you will be in good shape for this race with the mileage you put in. I did a Hal Higdon plan for my first race and actually did great (think most weeks were at about 40 miles); I didn't do the specific tune up races you did, or the directed HR efforts we follow here. Good luck though. I hope everything feels good on race day!
One thing I'm trying to figure out is what might have worked/not worked for me in my build up. I think I learned that 70 mpw is too much for me and that I benefit from an extra rest day. I also learned that I could make great progress on about 50 mpw with one subLT and one LR with some subLT mixed. My next ramp up may be right in the 45-55 mpw range, and just doing HADD with some races mixed in. The key for me will be to stay healthy and continue tuning my aerobic capacity with consistent training. I'm on the recovery train for the next 3-4 wks to protect what I've got.
VT, I'm with you on the 'virtual' support we all get here - such a nice bunch and always helpfull
Glad to hear your recovering well too. I have a spring Marathon with just 300 runners so doubt there will be crowds out (though loch Ness was pretty sparse with about 2000 runners and sprinklings of supporters too).
BeDe, am sure you'll be fine as long as the Man Flu holds off!
Not sure whats wrong with me, the only screens on my Garmin now are Current HR% and AHR% and am trying to ignore pace and stick to getting my AHR down but failing miserably.
3 miles in the Bikilas today and averaged 73.4% and 11:08 mm's. That's a higher AHR than the average AHR for the month (not sure how that figure works lol) and 35 secs/mile slower than my current monthly pace.
Andi, maybe you haven't recovered fully from your race. I'm a bit nervous to see how obliterated my aerobic engine will be...
You may be right VT and I did do 2 of yesterdays 4 miles @80% though felt fine.
Nice easy 7 miles tonight, and again, HR is right down
Ave pace of 11.20 @ 135 HR (72.5% MHR) which I think is the lowest ave HR for that hilly 7 miles, and at that pace. On the downhills and several flats my low HR beep (126) kept coming on 
Can you tell i'm excited about this recent change in HR ?
OK, probably a bit too excited but I'm really chuffed with what is happening at last!
I'm in agreement about the support here, it is great to see how people progress, and peoples reaction when you make your own progress. Thats very motivating, especially if you've struggled to get something right/better
Cheesy, I guess you'd call tonight's run one of those WTF moments
Great news and even better is, well, it gets better
I have a 7 mile run planned tomorrow and hope to get close to your AHR, out of interest what was the incline/decline on your hilly route? am now wondering if my hilly routes are not as hilly as others