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HADD Training Method
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Martyn - nearly 3 minutes off your average pace since August, that's fantastic! Is that at your 70% pace? Give us numbers: what pace/HR relationship do you have now compared to the beginning? Have you done the tests?
And when you say you're slow, that's a relative term. How many people in your club or last race you were in were way slower than you? You probably felt really slow, though, when you started, chugging along at 12m/m with a HR over 80%! Or slow relative to Elites? Let's face it, none of us dream of that. Even 'Joe' was not elite. So, no one is slow. We're all slow compared to what we potentially can train ourselves to be.
Dr Dan - welcome back to your own thread! The most important thing is to keep active and injury free. Good luck in chasing PB's in all distances!
Hi Dan and Chick! Great to hear from you guys. I've fallen off the boards but am trying to make a come back. I hope you are both well. Chick, sounds like you are finding a good balance and sometimes it is just great to be able to run (however much that might be!). Dan, you seem to have found a great new equation, especially if still delivering PBs.
I miss this thread. For Sol2 and Martyn, I have used HADD very successfully in the past. After a spring marathon last year I tried Hanson's (which frankly was fun after several years of HADDing; it's basically HADDing with one subLT replaced with a track session). Not sure of the end result as I had some medical issues (read kidney stones) this summer while doing Hanson's for a fall marathon. My time was a few minutes down on my PB, but with interrupted training could have been that result HADD or not (still got around strongly). Might try it again this year. However, I always go back to HADD after each marathon as I get ready for any more specific plan. Never more fit then when doing 60-75 per week with 2 subLTs in the mix. Trouble is transitioning from that (once you've gotten fitness dialed in) to anything else as by then you are ready for the marathon (and soon to peak or already peaked!).
HADDing if great for the love of running. Keeps you healthy, fit, and on the road.
One thing I've noticed this year is that my easy runs have slowed about 30 seconds/mile. HR dropped with the time drop. These feel super comfy (which HADD said normally would not). But can still run SubLTs with same pace as before. Is this a good thing (getting closer to the bottom of the tube?) or am I doing harm running too slow? Deep thoughts.
Martyn - no, not Milton Keynes. The race I'm doing is Wimborne 20
Sol2 - I'm fortunate that I'm no longer working so have the time to run, and more time to rest too when needed and I think that helps. I did a 51 day streak never feeling that I needed a rest day, it was ice at the end of December that ended that streak, but I wasn't deliberately doing a streak anyway. This year instead of specifying weekly mileage I've done a plan with a target monthly mileage which makes it much more flexible.
What I'm now doing re the 80% sessions is to do one on the flat and the other is an 8 mile route which has a few hills in it and I let my HR go up to 80% on the hills. I do need to incorporate some hills in my training as I have some hilly races coming up. It's the session on the flat that I find harder but it's getting better
So good to see everyone popping back on here for an update
Sol - thanks! I can't claim the thread-starter title though as this is a continuation of an earlier one that got lost when there was a glitch in the RW matrix!
Shades - sounds like you have a good plan to tackle the hilly races to come.
Chick - great that you are runnign again. I hate the "come-back trail" but the good news is that we always do manage to "come back"!
VT - great to hear from you!
Has the winter freeze set in over the pond? What the the plans for 2017?
Haven't posted as I felt I was "off topic". But I guess I can return given I'll be back to something like Hadd training by Feb ... except that I will have a weekly 5K blast around our local parkrun every Saturday morning.
2017 ... I am doing London marathon in April, Leeds ITU Olympic triathlon in June and Chester marathon in October ... there will be lots of 5K parkruns as well as a smattering of other races based around the ones that end up on our club championship list. The last 2016 club champ race is actually in Feb 2017, which is why I'm 10K training right now.
I had a reasonable December despite the holidays ... 127 miles total which included 3 x parkruns (20:25, 20:20, 20:16), 3 x interval sessions, and 4 x 15 mile long runs, so a good mix. Weight was a record low just before Xmas - hopefully back to that by next week after dealing with the holiday "carb-loading"
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VT, you too featured often here in the past. You started really slow, but made remarkable progress, is that right?
Your description of Hansons sounds like what Hadd's phase II program would look like. I have read talk about it, essentially that one or both subLT sessions are replaced with (starting out) running 5kpace+60 seconds for short intervals, which, over time and progress, lengthen. When you reach something like 5k reps, it moves to 5k+40 and back to the short intervals. Then 5k+20, 5k pace, then 30, etc. Pity that the details of phase 2 seems to have been lost.
Doesn't sound good that your easy pace has slowed. That doesn't show improvement. What do you mean that your HR dropped with the times? Have you raced often in the last year? It is said that too much anaerobic work and races erode the aerobic base. Just a thought.
Shades, your monthly mileage goal idea is interesting. And a hilly 80% session sounds good, too. I'd do that myself when I build the fitness up there. Running hilly routes are a great way to increase strength you wouldn't otherwise get on the flats.
Dr Dan, I know you were continuing a 'discontinued' thread, but you can still take credit!
I wanted to revive the thread, because there's so much precious information in it and really knowledgeable and helpful peeps on here!
Dr.Dan...glad to hear you are injury free again. Maybe cross training is worth another bash. Your cadence must be rapid nowadays? Any recent Duathlons? I used to have a road bike and have it in the back of my mind to a Duathlons in another year or so once I'm up to a decent standard of running.
Thanks Chicksta, I have a long way to getting near any of your lofty PB's. I recall that you did the Boston Marathon the year after the bombings, so just to be running with all of your limbs must put things into even more perspective for you. We are the lucky ones, and I'm sure you will be flying again soon once you have that solid base in place once again.
Hi Sol2, one of the reasons that I joined a running club in November was so that I could do the Hadd test on a track, but as of yet I've not done the test (I tried on 29/12/16 but the track was frozen).
As stats go, my training runs are quite difficult to compare due mt hr training beginning in peak summer when I would have an average pace per mile of 14:xx. I no longer use the same routes as I try and do a minimum of 60 mins per session so cannot compare like for like but now find that my average pace per mile is 11:xx.
I decided against using my park run pace plus 3 mins and have done this training the slower way.
I will post my monthly mileage and race results later as a better comparison.
Following on from above,
Miles
June 72.68
July 100.13
August 98.32 inc 5 mile race 44.09 (21 seconds outside of my pb)
September 100.73 inc 10k race of 57:xx (3 mins outside my pb)
October 142.55 inc 5k race of 25.06 (2 min pb)
November 120.92 inc 10 mile of 1:30:xx (3 min pb) 06/11/16
joined running club 10/11/16
and a 5m race of 40:36 (3 min pb) 26/11/16
December 132.06 inc Half Marathon Race 1:55:xx (5 min pb) 11/12/16
The Pb's coincided with the cooler weather, plus I got into a habit of having a pint of Guiness and a Bottle of Budweiser the night before each race from October onwards when the PB's began.
I've also lost two stone in the last six months which also must of helped.
Still very slow in comparison to most, but this thread has been a real inspiration.
Its great to hear how some of you have been getting on as I felt like I was only halfway through a book when the thread ended.
Hi VTrunner I took a lot from your posts and your steady progression of mileage. Did you get sub 3:15 in the end?
Is Andy still running? He started at a very similar pace to myself so I was very interested in his continued improvement!
I'm looking at adding a sixth day of running soon to help increase my weekly mileage. This will be a cross country type run to build up different muscles and go easy on my joints and previous injuries.
For my test, I don't use a track (don't have one nearby). I use a nice, long, straight and flat stretch of road at an industrial estate about 2 miles away from where I live. (North hilly Manchester). At night the road is pretty quiet, so for me, it's perfect. Mind you, I've only done one test so far; my next is next week.
My trouble was setting up the watch. Setting the intervals in garmin connect (1.5m work; 1:30 rest, x5) is, of course, not difficult, but I ended up with splits which told me the first mile of each work bout, followed by the next half-mile. Of course, I'm not interested in the data of the first half-mile, which is merely the distance required to get up to speed, the slip road, if you will. I only want to see the data of the mile once I'm at target HR.
What I'm going to try for next time is setting the following.
0.5mi WU,
1.0mi work (130bpm)
1:30 rest
0.5mi WU
1.0mi work (140bpm)
1:30 rest
Etc, all the way to 180bpm. I hope this approach will give me the data I need
Anyway, yes, I know this is 6x2400. Here's the explanation. My max is ~193. Therefore, my 70% is 134bpm. Being that I frequently run at below that intensity, I want to monitor that speed as well. Besides, this way I don't require a warm up. Essentially, I end up with a 1.5mi jog @ 67%, jog for 1:30, run 1.5mi @ 73%. This serves nicely as a good warm up.
Last night I did 3x20 minutes at 80% (3min rests) . 2mi WU and 1.5 WD. The first 20 minutes was 'easy,' the next 20 I averaged 81%, which might, or might not have, been the cause of an average of 78% in the final 20, in which I was tired. I think I'll have to repeat this 3x20 again next time (in two weeks), before upgrading to 2x30 minutes.
Just my incoherent ramblings...
Dr Dan - your parkrun results are very consistent, some skilful racing going on there I think
Sol2 - My flatter training routes are fairly limited here in Devon and once the mornings are a bit brighter I want to get away from the main roads and the streetlights. However, round here that means undulating and/or hilly routes on the quiet country roads which is where I prefer to run anyway. So I'm pleased to be able to incorporate a hilly run into my Hadd training.
Re Hadd tests, I too start at a lower HR rate of 108 which is 67.5% MHR for me, I have a low MHR 160 so I do the Hadd test at 108/116/124/132/140, haven't done the 140 for a while as I find that too hard. I can do 140 in a race but not easily in cold blood!
I record each 1.5 mile as a complete session and use the totals for each HR as my stats, I don't discard the first half mile as warm up. I consider starting at 67.5% a reasonable warm up for the whole test.
Martyn - I've never heard of anyone joining a running club so you can use their track for your Hadd tests, but I think it's a very valid reason.
My nearest track is a 40 mile round trip so I have a measured route on a quiet housing estate, flat and a good road surface and 4 laps of my route there gives me 1.55 miles.
I too have used the 'slower way' of starting Hadd and not chosen the 5k + 3 minutes, partly because I've never done a 5k race of any sort and partly because I wanted to do it IMHO properly.
Those PB's of yours are significant improvements, great running.
Sol2 Thank you, however to be honest I am still very envious of faster runners that wizz past me when I'm out training.
I am now running at the same pace of between 11:15 - 11:45 as I used to do my easy runs at in my first 18 months running. Although I was no doubt previously doing those runs at a lot higher Hr than nowadays.
I have the same issues with very hilly surroundings which was why I wanted to do the test on a running track.
When I finally do the test I'm thinking of 2000 meters (5 laps of the track) as I'm sure 'Joe' was covering 2400 meters quicker than I will doing 2000 meters.
I was just going to restart my watch each time and count to 90 seconds in my head inbetween sets.
My max Hr is 196, so very similar.
Shades what is your 20 mile aim? Would you just run it by pace or Hr? I'm planning on running it by feel in and around 9 min pace like I have in the 10 mile and half marathon before hopefully pushing on.
I had been toying with the idea of joining a running club, but the running track certainly decided it.
Martyn - the 20 mile race on the 5th March is 3 laps and undulating, from memory the hilly part probably a bit too steep to run to heart rate, so the plan this year is just to have an enjoyable run and better than last year when I really struggled.
However 6 days later I have a flat 20 mile race and I'm going to experiment with Marco's marathon heart rates on here https://feelrace.com/fr.pl?th=_Marco
One of the girls on my training thread had been injured and was unsure what pace to try for in her November marathon, I suggested she try the Marco heart rates and see how she got on and she had a great run, I think her 2nd best time ever, so I want to have a go too.
If it works for me then I'll try the Marco heart rates in my first marathon of the year which is early April.
I don't think Hadd advised wearing HRM in races, but I like the stats.
Martyn, I too, have considered doing just 2000m as opposed to 2400m, using your argument. I think it has merit. Either way, the important thing is, just to keep each test identical, so as to provide comparable data.
I also thought of using your argument regarding weekly mileage. Hadd told Joe to only come back to him for training once he had arrived at 50mpw. Considering that, in his first test, he ran 140bpm in 7:56, yet the the minimum prescribed HR was 145, so I'll take a mile at 145 to be ~7:40m/m. That would take him 6 hours, 25 minutes. I don't know about you, but I've already spent 6:44 this week on the go and it's only been 44 miles so far! (another 4 to go - about another 35 minutes. Estimated total 48 miles = 7:15. Estimating total 50 miles = 7.5 hours!). This is why I began my subLT sessions after 40mpw.
Is 50 a special magic number? Or is the time more important? Debate ahead!
Looking through the Letrun forums for Hadd comments, I came across this one here:
Here we go...
OK, if you read thru my lengthy post which you copied above, then you should understand that you are trying to do a number of things:
Let me number those points:
1 Get as much oxygen out of your lungs and into the blood where it binds to as many hemoglobin molecules as you can create.
2. Pump that blood as fast as possible, in as huge quantities as possible,
3. to as many muscle fibres as you can reach and get that oxygen into the fibres where it can be used to create energy without lactic acid buildup.
It might help to think of it like this:
The oxygen is the product to be delivered.
The hemoglobin is the fleet of delivery trucks.
The capillaries surrounding the muscles are the road network.
Every one is vital for the system to work to its fullest.
As I explained above, a form of training that works one part of the body (the heart), is not also the best system to work another part of the system (the legs).
The base building you need is to create part 3. the network of capillaries. You need to create so many that every single muscle fibre becomes wrapped in them like vines round a tree. The more there are round a fibre, the more time there will be for the oxygen to transfer over into the muscle cell. The more that fibre can be used without lactic acid buildup and without tiring.
And long aerobic running is the best way to do this. But note this, your body only recruits enough fibres to develop the power needed to run at the pace you are doing. Some fibres in the muscle are working flat out, while others are totally relaxed. If you want to train enough fibres, then you must go far enough that the first fibres become fuel exhausted, causing your body to rest them and recruit the next set of fibres, then the next...
As each fibre becomes fuel exhausted, it is stimulated to adapt itself so that it can do the same job BETTER next time (maybe store more fuel to last longer before exhaustion, maybe increase its enzymes to provide more energy at a faster rate...)
So, as should be obvious, one long run is better than two short ones. It is not enough to run 70mpw if it is made up of 2 x 5 miles every day. Much better to have 3 longer runs of 90 mins, with some shorter work (like runs of 60 mins) in the days in between.
Another reason for so doing (as the Japanese show us) is that our bodies will not recruit the thicker / stronger fibres until the thinner ones are exhausted... so the long runs are really necessary to get to the thicker (more powerful and usually more anaerobic) fibres. But the pace can be as slow as you want. Even 8 mins/mile is okay, just go further and further. (Note here that Paula's 3000m time improved this year after she moved up to marathon-type training)
So, run as many miles as you can at approx 1-mile pace plus 2:30-3.00 mins per mile (ie: if 1-mile pace is 4.30, run easy at 7.00-7.30mins/mile).
Don?t be worrying that you are training slow, yet want to race fast, your body is smart enough to recruit as many of these well-trained aerobic fibres as it needs to generate any running pace required. (Imagine lots of little dudes getting together on a tug-of-war rope; get enough of them at the same time and you can generate substantial power.)
Peter Snell showed this in the 1960s, running WR in 800m (might have been 880yds in those days) after lots of 22 mile long runs in the hills in New Zealand.
Now this won?t happen overnight, so your decision to devote only November to this is not long enough. Aim for 8-10 weeks (or as long as poss), and don?t forget to run some of these in the hills. Don?t run them hard, but lifting the knees to go up
Don?t run them hard, but lifting the knees to go uphill will recruit fibres not normally used in running on the flat and come in handy on raceday. Also run offroad if possible, just always easy, able to hold a 90 minute conversation with a running partner.
In time, a 90 min run will seem "short", and you will know your aerobic system is improving.
Running once or twice per week (within a 60 min run) at 1-mile pace plus 2.00 mins mile (ie: 6.30 pace for a 4.30 miler) for say 3 x 15 mins with a short jog in between is also good after the first 3-4 weeks. Just always be careful, as I explained above. Do not be impatient, you cannot rush this and it is too easy to do this too fast and achieve very little in the way of development.
Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=42240#ixzz4VBL9sk8b
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=42240
Shades I'm not a fan of undulating, but I quite like doing laps in races as it helps to know when to keep a bit back and when to push on if you are unfamiliar with the course.
I find that the Hr strap restricts my chest in races when I start breathing heavy towards the end of a race, so stopped wearing it for the last two races. I think it would be interesting running at maybe 80% for the first half of a race before pushing on. I will make sure my next Garmin has hr built into the watch to assist with this.
Thanks for the link, I will take a look.
Sol2 I think we are both very alike in that sometimes we may over think this running malarkey a little?
Hadd has given me an incentive to up my mileage, which in turn has played a big part in my recent improvement. In saying that, I am a fan of Cycling's Team sky who made lots of small improvements in order to gain an extra improvement ahead of other teams so I can see why you would be interested in the little things that add up. I did try reading that thread a few weeks ago, but I really struggled to get into it. I am now reading the original thread that Jonnybike created instead in the hope of picking up a few new tips.
With regards to your above quotes, they make perfect sense, and are something that I always try and stick to. Brian wrote that he used to always take a deep breathe down to his diaphragm every two steps. The theory being that the more oxygen making its way to his legs, the more energy he would then have to run faster.
This weeks running has taken me over eight hours and yet I've 'only' run just under 39 miles including 15.8 miles today which took a whopping 3 hours and 15 mins!
I suppose that I am now at the required part to now start 'proper' training now that I am at 8 hours running per week. So the base could be complete after keeping all of my runs under 75% in the last 3 weeks. Back to a few quicker runs this week.
How has everyone else got on this week?
Great link Shades, very interesting predictor for a full marathon saying I can do a 4:03:51. Mcmillan was very similar with 4:02:39.
Due to my two previous bad experiences when running a marathon, I had it in my head to just make sure I do the whole 26.2 miles without walking any of it, although I am getting more confident as to what I should aim for after the 1:55:xx four weeks ago.
Sol2 - that is exactly what I do, allowing the HR to rise slowly to the target rate. I record the whole distance for time and pace as often my pace does not increase when I reach the target HR and on the higher HR's will actually drop a little as I get nearer the end of the 1.5 miles as I tire or experience cardiac drift.
Martyn - I don't mind the odd flat race, but I find the best races are undulating and even hilly
.
Does you HRM not have an elasticated strap, maybe you could wear it a little lower, it should still work. Or you could try buying a more comfortable strap.
I wouldn't buy an HRM with a wrist sensor, they are not reliable enough yet.
Sorry to hear that you've had 2 bad experiences with the marathon, Hadd's training is certainly the way forward so that you don't hit any walls and don't have to walk, as long as you don't go off too fast on race day of course. The Marco calculator I'm intending to use for the heart rates recommended per mile, I think I will struggle keeping the HR down in the first half of the marathon but I still have a few weeks training to go. Just completed a 64 mile week, all being well maybe 70 miles this week, we'll see.
At any rate, running 8 hours+ p/week is impressive. (Especially when, I sense some frustration at your pace.) A single run of over 3hrs has gotta be loaded with goodness to your system. If, between 15 minutes in and the end of an hour-long run you are not seeing the HR rise more than 5 beats, you should start with the subLTs. It's not the end of base - its part of it. It is still aerobic running, just high end aerobic. I hope that you will soon find the improvements you deserve.
You don't 'have' to do the tests, if you're finding an available track or useable flat path, towpath or road difficult. Are you on strava? There, they have 'segments,' which they show your times for. If over time you run the same segments or routes, you will see, hopefully, gradually faster times.
Now, the truth is, I haven't seen any improvements in my mins per mile since I started. In fact, the opposite. I've slowed. However, I think it's because at the beginning I was running at 70-75%, while now, due to the increase in mileage from the 30s to this past weeks 50mpw, and the general fatigue that accompanies it, I'm running most runs at 65-70%. Anyway, I have my second test due tomorrow, so I'm taking the day off today. Hopefully, I'll see some positive results then!
Regarding this increase in mileage, I could never have thought that I could do it without injury. So, thanks to Hadd right there! Just mild fatigue, which still allows me to proceed comfortably with planned sessions. I'm planning now on maintaining this 50mpw for the next few months. Hopefully, as my body gets used to it, the fatigue will reduce to zero. It could be I am guilty of over-thinking things...!
BTW, I have a garmin 235, a wrist based HRM. Not that I have anything to compare it to, but I do feel that, on the whole, it is confirming to me that my objective effort levels are correct. Sometimes, there are 'spikes,' or short periods of time when it's showing me really stupid data. But that happens occasionally on chest strap HRMs, too, from what I've read.
I joined a running club over a year ago, but I haven't actually joined any of their sessions in several months. They have 2 running groups a week. Monday is 'fast' - too fast for me, without it turning into a tempo. And Thursday's session is earlier in the evening, which my wife doesn't like as I won't be home for family supper and the kids bedtimes. They also have a monthly track session, which involves eyeballs out short reps for as long as you can handle. Don't know when I'll next join a session with them.
Shades, I suppose it doesn't make much difference how we record the test data, as long as it remains consistent.
Keep putting in the good work!
I never did any Hadd Tests but I have done most of my ILTHR runs on a route with a 1.04 mile circuit, so I can compare each mile and also each run... looking forward to starting these again next month. Meanwhile, Saturday was a 21:03 parkrun (slowest for a while - legs just weren't in the mood) and then I did my 6th 15 mile LSR in 7 weeks on Sunday. Today was 6.25 miles including a 4 x 1200m interval session - legs were still not happy and averaged 6:33/mile for the intervals, which was too slow (5K pace). Only 3 more Tuesday interval sessions before the 10K ... 5 x 1000m next week, 3 x 1600m the week after, and then 6 x 400n in the final week.
Shades the hr band does yes, but I just feel that it restricts my breathing in a race. I never notice it in training and have tried to wear it looser but then it just annoys me by slipping down.
Interesting that you say watches with hr built in are not the most reliable yet, I hadn't done much research.
My first marathon was trying to do do a marathon after only starting running five months before. Patellar Tendonitis set in ten weeks before the race meaning I hardly trained in the lead up to the race, only managing a maximum of a 16 mile lsr meaning Dublin 2014 was an awful experience, going through halfway at 2:32 and ending up finishing in 5:45!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The other, I did six months later in Milton Keynes May 2015 after a knee operation in November 2014 to repair a torn cartilage which the Dr said I was okay to still race Dublin 2014 with.
I trained well, PB'd at 10k and Half Marathon before injuring my hip after mile 8 pulling a gel from a holder on my arm as I ran. I was going okay with the 4:30 group at the time and ended up pulling out after 13 miles.
So with the help of Hadd, I have built a decent base of 1151 miles in 2016 going into the Marathon training phase for May 2017 with confidence oozing if I can stay injury free.
Great mileage Shades, especially at this time of year.
Hey Sol2, my pace before I was Hadding was 11:15 -11:45. It was 14:XX when I first started Hadding so I have made progress, all be it frustratingly making me feel like I am now at where I was a year ago, all be it with much quicker PB's which show it it working.
I have been doing one 80% club run in November and most of December, plus one night of reps with my club for three weeks in the same period. But I just went back to sub 70% stuff for the last three weeks.
I literally can't find anywhere flat in my area. It has slopes everywhere.
Same as, trying a test in a moment if my track is open this early.
And yes, the sensors on my strap seem to work best if I spit on them first before placing it around my chest.
My club has three different groups, meaning I can stick to 80% at the back of the group.
Good going Dr Dan, do you have a cut back week every three weeks? Or maybe the slower pace is down to a cold or slightly warmer weather in the last week?
I did Dublin 2014 too ... tough course/conditions. It was 4 weeks after I'd done Nottingham marathon, so wasn't expecting too much. Finished strongly which is always good but was off the pace that day (3:39).
Sol2 - hope the test goes well today and it's not too windy.
Martyn - the wrist HRM's are much improved and I'm sure it won't be long before they compare more favourably with chest HRM's.
Marathons are unpredictable beasts and you did well at Dublin despite your injury curtailing your training. As for MK, that's a really unlucky injury to pick up during the race.
Which marathon are you planning to do next?
I did Dublin too in 2014....looks like most of us were there that day
Been lurking around these thread for a very long time and occasionally contributing.
I've been comparing my own HR experiences and pace with others on here and one thing that surprises me is that my pace at, say, 80%MHR is so much slower than others, yet my marathon finish times, whilst still slower, are not much slower.
For example, my 80%HR pace on the flat is around 9.20m/m and my last (and best) marathon time is 3.34.40. Dr.Dan's 80%MHR pace is, I think from memory around 8.00m/m and marathon time around 3.31.00.
This means he's 1m.20 per mile faster at 80%, yet only around 10s per mile faster at marathon race pace.
Do we all thrive at different HR% ?
In fact, my 80% maxHR is often more like 7:15/m. But I can't sustain that in a marathon. My PB was at 77% maxHR... mostly at 8/mi.
To be honest, I think you're more likely to be under-estimating your maxHR.
Some great Hadd-like training chat with Zach Bitter here (starts around 23 minutes):
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/abs/10.1139/apnm-2016-0459#.WHY95H30fXO
Dan
That's a link to nutrition
I have considered whether I'm underestimating my MHR, but it would have to be a massive underestimate to bring my HR/pace closer in line with yours. Also, I did do a test (W/U 3 miles and run up Layton Lane in Rawdon 3 times hard with the last effort all out), so like all of us, I may not be bang on but I'm quite confident I'm within 2-4 bpm
SSLHP, (what is your name; I can't call you this!) you say that your 80% pace is 9:20/m. But with a marathon time of 3:34, your pace was around 8:10/m - what was your HR? Anyway, what is your 70% pace and what is your max? Have you done a Hadd test?
Dr Dan, that link sounded promising, but way-over-my-head nutrition science stuff didn't deliver. According to the search engine there, they've never heard of a Zach Bitter.
Layton lane is nasty and may have been too long and steep ... chances are you'll burn out before getting to maxHR. But if correct, then what HR are you running at your 3:34 marathon pace? It's going to be very high if 9:20/m is at 80%. What HR would you see in a parkrun?
Sol2. My name is Iain
Always run my marathon by pace (using past marathon experience and current marathon training -relating HR to pace) I always feel cardiac drift during 26.2 miles will encourage you to slow the pace in a way that would hinder potential performance. Anyway, I use HR to train.
I'm 56 with what I think is my max at 172-174 and a resting HR of 42
PBs from 2 years ago:
Marathon 3.34.40
10K 42.44
I'm not quite as fit as then but might be at the end of this marathon training.