Sub 4:30 anyone?

Tracey G

IveIced decided to follow a sub 4:30 marathon. I did Brighton last year in 5:07:44. I suffer with cramp in marathons, but managed fend it off until 22 miles year and knock 10 mins of my pb. I would happy with 4:45.

Tim R2-T2

booktrunk wrote (see)

Timr: quick!!! I think you should be looking at sub 4 if you can do that already and not feel shattered. If that's less than 80% effort, then again right place if you Burn up to much energy in your training.

Do you have a current marathon time? 

You might need more of a telling off for starting to fast do you use a Garmin if so you really need to use it to go slow enough in your race

Yes. definitely. See my post above, we probably cross posted. My half marathons have been getting quicker and I've always started out at predicted pace based in the Half Time. I'm still learning...

Results so far:

Rutland 2010 4:54
Rutland 2011 4:47
Rutland 2012 4:39
New Forest 2013 4:50

New Forest was the hardest run I have ever done, I thought I was in real trouble at the end. London should be simple.

[Deleted User]

welcome to Tracey G and Millthyme .  Millthyme, what is your training like?  and have you done any halfs or other long runs/races?

TimR - I was at Rutland 2010 and must have finished quite close to you - I was 4.51.55.  Found it quite lumpy (I live in Boston!) and haven't been back - yet!

[Deleted User]

Millthyme welcome and as Keggy says i suppose it depends what you have done in that time. 

Ive been running a similar amount of time and constantly question whether i am ready or not.  Only one way to find out!! 

Plus i imagine Booktrunk will suggest that with more than 22 weeks to go the fact you have run at all means you are over-prepared :P

Tracey G

Keggy - I've done 21 marathons (8 Beachy Head marathons). I find it hard to training for marathons due to having a 14 year old autistic son and hubby that does shift work.

My half pb is 2:12:18

[Deleted User]

4 miles tonight at 10:48 miles and HR better at 77% but still a big spike at the start. After doing some reading the cold reduces sweating so reduces contact and extra clothes = static=erratic connection.  At least that gives me more to blame it on  

booktrunk

6.66km / 4.166m in 40:40 6:06 per km / 9:45 per mile.

average heart rate 133, not bad on 2 hours sleep after watching nearly all of the Ashes day 1.

booktrunk

a lot of problems appear to have come from people setting out far to quickly. 

I really think that we need to ensure we properly plan out races, and stick to the times. Going out to fast is by far the easiest way to trash your plans.

personally I look at my half to full time in previous marathons as a way of seeing how I am going. I am now down to 2.11 x half = full.

so if I keep at the same fitness level I need to go through half way in 2:04 124m x 2.1 which would give me a 4:20 marathon.

that's my plan.. Quite how I implement it is another question......

booktrunk

Now most will say i should aim for 2:10 then the same for the second half, but I know that I'm not able to keep the same speed up for the whole distance, and frankly we have more energy early in the race so use some of it might be a stupid plan, but thats what I'm thinking of trying 

the difference between starting out fast and to fast is I guess a judgement

[Deleted User]

I agree... going off too fast has resulted in me suffering in the later stages of the two marathons I've done to date (so hopefully third time lucky!) and caused me to miss out on my target times on both occasions.



The reason for this I think is that you have trained for a 26mile race and hopefully have done a few twenty mile runs or further in training and therefore the first six miles are a breeze and the first thirteen miles relatively easy. This, coupled with the excitement of race day can easily lead to going off too fast because early on you feel fit and full of energy! But trust me this comes back to bite you big time in the later stages. In my first marathon my the first half was ran in 1:59 but the second was ran / walked in 2:31 and from mile 22 onwards I was in a painful place.



The second reason for doing this is simply the lack of focus and discipline to set off at a steady pace and stick to it, and not to get carried away. Something I??lll

[Deleted User]

Whoops...meant to finish with " something I'm going to be trying hard to address this time around."

Tracey G

This year at Brighton I worked hard at keeping the first half mile splits even as in past the first 10k was too fast.

Brighton 2012 5:19:07 12:10 pace

1st half 2:24:47 11:02 pace

2nd half 2:54:19 13:17 pace

Brighton 2013

5:07:44 11:44 pace

10k 1:08:24 11:00 pace

13.1 2:24:39 11:02 pace

20k 3:31:55 11:22 pace

 

 

Tim R2-T2

My problem is converting my half times (1:50-1:56) to marathon times. Despite doing plenty of 16+ mile long runs. Even starting off at 9:20 (for something close to 4:00) my pace dramatically fails off after 15miles.



I think, for me, this is purely down to volume of miles. Hence my 'rest' days are now 6miles at MP or slower and my LSR is last 1/4 at MP. It's more of a Jack Daniels approach than Hal Higdon I suppose.

Tracey G

Ran 8 miles this morning in 1:25:18. Ran second half fast ????

[Deleted User]

Tim, do you use any energy gels or the like during your long training runs / marathon runs? As it sounds like you may be running out of fuel.



Have you tried starting off at a slower pace on your long runs, to conserve some energy, and then build up to a faster pace for the second half of your run with the aim to run a negative split.



Hopefully 10-12 miles for me in the morning!

[Deleted User]

Wouldn't it be good if we could solve this second half (or last 6 miles) problem. Up the Boro, yup, fuel is one thing and aerobic base would be another. 26.2 is, well twicw 13.1 (I did meths at school lol).

Tim, am sure you'll get there this time and yup, depending on terrain maybe a slower out will help conserve energy? Lochaber in April is pretty darn flat so should be a good run for even splits.

Tracey, well done on getting out today

10 miles tonight in 2 hours, was mainly concentrating on HR (ended up at 73% so still too high), in fact I don't have a pace screen on my Garmin these days and as I don't wear my glasses when running now I can't see the split times roll over every 1/2 mile.

Tim R2-T2

On LSRs I run evenly for 20miles at 10:30. I don't fuel at all.



On the day I use jelly babies. One every mile after 14miles. I'm thinking of trying currant buns or digestive biscuits. I tried a gel at home in my kitchen. God it was awful!



I've been reading that Daniels suggests that 2.5hours is the longest you should run LSRs. Couple that with the last quarter at MP, that puts my LSR distance at 16miles max. Which is an interesting concept. I've been going up to 18miles a few times with 2 20milers.

Tim R2-T2

Friday night is interval night for me. 6x1000m is still working well.

[Deleted User]

Tim, I would try and keep your energy levels topped up as you go along rather than wait until mile 14 when they are most likely depleted after two hours of running at the higher pace. The difference in pace between your LSRs and your race day will burn up more fuel quicker than you think. While this is ok for shorter runs / races, anything over two hours and your body will start to run on empty. I would start on the jelly babies at mile 6 or so. I use the SIS-Go gels. They are isotonic so can be taken without water and go down really easily.



Good effort on the intervals, I've never really bothered with anything like that but really think I should. What pace do you run them at and do they do you any good?

booktrunk

Timr that isn't enough

you need to start fuelling a lot earlier before you run out of energy, by 14m you have used your inbuilt energy store. I know it isn't cool or "hard man" but seriously try gels 

as we are at the slow end it's a lot of them, and some on the forums will laugh at you but it makes a difference, can do jelly babies, but you would need 2 or 3 every  km after the first half a dozen, so would be non stop eating 

 Edit: can stop at about 36k as anything later will take to long to absorb. 

Tim R2-T2

Guys, you're absolutely right. I really need to have a good think about fuelling on the run. I suppose it's because I don't take anything during a half marathon and more recently only had a couple of slices of toast and a banana before a race. Couple that with doing my long runs on an empty stomach and it becomes something I've obviously not considered fully.



I'm running my intervals at close to 7:00/mi as possible. According to Daniels the optimum time at vVO2max is 4-5 minutes. Using a bit of simple maths 7:00/mi equates to 1000m in that time.



Thanks.

Pipski

Morning Guys

Tim, if it's any help I take the strawberry and banana power gel.  I take this after an hour and it makes a huge difference to my energy levels.   It does taste as though you are drinking sugar, but it definitely helps.

Peeps, I need to know if anyone else has sore legs whilst running your long runs on a weekend?  I've ran 12 miles for the last two weekends and my legs just seem to get heavier and heavier.   I could keep running for ages as cardio wise, I'm cool, it's just my legs feel like they belong to someone else.  I'm hoping this all part of the strengthening process as the muscle fibres are breaking down.  The one thing I have noticed is that last weekend I ran faster at 9:10 and it took 48 hours for my legs to recover.  Yesterday I ran at about 10 minute miles and my legs have recovered fully today (24 hours later).   I hope this is normal to have sore quads during a long distance run and that this is all part of the process.  If not, I give up

Tim R2-T2

Pipski, the problem is that you don't have a race time, so you're just guessing on what your paces should be. Assuming that your half marathon pace is 9:00/mi (I suggest it's quicker) then technically and ideally you're heading for a 4:15 marathon.

Look at that calculator, there is a separate 'paces' page/drop down, depending whether you're on a PC or a mobile etc.
Putting 1:58 in for a half-marathon you get 9:24/mi to 10:42/mi for your long run pace. Any quicker is counterproductve for building endurance - slower the better. I would aim to be runnig at 10:30/mi.

Pipski

Brilliant, thanks Tim.  Great advice.

booktrunk

I've completely changed my plans and i'm doing a 6 week burst of HADDing style training. 

For instance tonight i did 5 miles in an hour, but my average heart rate was only 120bpm I'm going to try it until the new year with hopefully no runs at all with a average heart rate over around 130/132

Going to be fun, has been for the first week of doing it, and then i'm full on Marathon / Ultra training. So lets see how it goes.

Tracey G

Ran 9 miles yesterday in 1:38:25. Last mile into the wind was horrible. I'm running long runs at 11:00 pace.

Tim R2-T2

Good to see people still running and posting, I thought it had been a bit quiet this week.



I've had an easy week. 6miles easy on Mon, Wed and this morning.



Tomorrow I'm doing the Original Gimm. Will be a bit of a laugh and work out some different muscles.

[Deleted User]

A hard 10.3 miles at 9:27/mile, was the pick of my runs since i last posted, started off slow for first 5 miles and then speeded up to do the second half a bit quicker than the first. Need to now concentrate on running longer at a slower pace over the next few weeks.