Jeff Galloway approach to R/W/R London Marathon 2014 -Help!

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  • Having a quick early lunch today. Sports relief at school and the children are doing a running challenge for it. I'm going to cheat and run with the children this aft and count it as one of my runs this week. Should be fun.

    C

  • /members/images/425963/Gallery/photo2.jpeg

    Several miles run for Sport relief with the children (off camera). We had a great time.

     

  • booktrunkbooktrunk ✭✭✭

    Does your garmin have run/walk and autolap? 

    Autolap you set for the 1m or 1km split and the run walk to 4/1 or whatever. you get R/W beeps and it flashing up the lap pace each m or km. 

    (Fingers crossed your garmin has both) 

  • Chris - great photo

    booktrunk - I am not sure mine will do both, I have the 910XT, and to put it into run/walk I have to set up an interval training session, so although the autolap is always set to 1mile, in interval mode the intervals become the laps

    I might investigate using the web. Might be that one of the newer garmins does both, but I can't justify the expense really

    And I can only set up 255 repetitions! Think my marathon is going to take more reps than that! Will have to reset when I get to that point

     

  • Aha!! Just looked at the manual! I can set run/walk alerts instead of using the interval mode by going into training - run alerts! Should keep the autolap so I will try it tomorrow image 

  • @ math: I was just looking at your post... the 910 and 610 both have great alerts. I use one for time, one for distance (food) and one for run/walk as timer. No problems, no interval stuff needed at all. If you want, you can have auto laps during a run or training. I actually never use that. I dit during my last experiment with different ratios but only to give me a clue. I am interested in the total not in a mile and looking at a graph I can see whether it was flat or not.

    @ minnie: if the glucosamin does not help in 3 months you can stop taking them. That is the advise we always give to patients. I take a combi tablet myself and so is my doggy image About distance: it depends. I can be really fast with RWR, also on a shorter run, but sometimes it is fun or easy to run continuously. it is just a mental thing in my opinion

    I just read a tweet from someone. He finished a race today. He said that the last 5K were killing him (race was 32K) but that he was soo proud that he did not have to walk. Well... be proud but I bet that he would have been faster if and when he would have started with a good RWR strategy. One way or the other people think it is 'not done' and/or it will slow down. I really don't understand. Well, he will be tired tomorrow and I hope he is fit again for the marathon in 3 weeks time. Time will tell!

     

  • Thanks max I will keep on them for a while and see how I get on.  I have a burning desire (once I can run again) to do a half in under 2 hours. Been close (2.03 and 2.04) with run only  and wondered if rwr would get me there as I've slowed right down in miles 10-13.   Can't wait to get sorted and try it out x

  • thanks max

  • I'm a bit, well a lot really, scared of next week's long run (26 miles). I think I've gone into pre-race panic mode as very frightened of getting injured at the last minute, especially with doing these long runs so close together. At the moment I'm convinced I have got the following - plantar trouble in my feet, early shin splints above my ankles, ITB trouble and the start of a hamstring problem, oh and my back is going to give wayat any moment LOL.

    Basically if I home in on any part of my legs I am convinced I can feel something wrong. I really should stop it off, but I have suffered from so much injury in the past that  I subconsciously, and probably now consciously, think something drastic will happen next week to stop me running the race. Okay so my legs are still a bit tired and my feet did feel a bit mashed at the end of my 24 miler, but really what do I expect after running 24 miles for the first time in my life. I think I need to seriously give myself a talking too and stop thinking such panicky thoughts, because I'm fine really.

    On top of that I am agonising about what pace I should run the marathon at. I have looked at Jeff Galloway and RW calculators and this is what I come up with. MM = Magic Mile)

    : JG Predictions Date           MM       Prediction      Pace 12.03.14    9:09       5:11:52        11:53 m/mi 02.02.14    9:24       5:20:23         12:13m/mi   Interestingly my Feb MM (9:24) predicted a half marathon time of 2:27:52 so call it 2:28. I did Blackpool that month in 2:33:02 so call it 2:33. As the winner was 5 mins slower than any in at least the previous 3 yrs and runners I spoke to were all saying the same about their times I'd say the MM was a pretty accurate prediction. My MM at the end of December also predicted my 5K Parkrun time to within 6 secs. Both pretty good for accuracy.   RW Predictions
     Date          MM        1/2 Marathon       Marathon       Pace                                Actual Time         Prediction
    12.03.14    9:09                                    4:51:37          11:07 02.02.14    9:24                                    4:59:35          11:26 23.02.14                     2:33:02              5:19:03           12:10   Interesting how near together the JG marathon prediction using my Feb MM and RW marathon prediction from my Feb half are: only 80 secs between them.   Perhaps I should aim for 5:30 (12:35 pace) and see what I have left after mile 18.   Anyone got thoughts about their own possible race strategy? C
  • Chris, I was thinking about that today!  did 19 miles, and thought I'd try 1min:1min.  I was slower than last week's 30sec:30secs so think I will use that.  My dream would be sub 6hrs but in reality I don't think I will make that.  it's all about finishing (preferably upright).  As for today's run, my pain box came later than last week's effort which was good, but it came hard.  Still am happy I did 19 and now it's taper!!!

  • Grrr all my data got scrambled up above and now it won't let me edit it. For the sake of clarity.

    Hope this makes more sense

    JG Predictions

    Date           MM       Prediction      Pace

    12.03.14    9:09       5:11:52        11:53 m/mi

    02.02.14    9:24       5:20:23         12:13m/mi  

    Interestingly my Feb MM (9:24) predicted a half marathon time of 2:27:52 so call it 2:28. I did Blackpool that month in 2:33:02 so call it 2:33. As the winner was 5 mins slower than any in at least the previous 3 yrs and runners I spoke to were all saying the same about their times I'd say the MM was a pretty accurate prediction. My MM at the end of December also predicted my 5K Parkrun time to within 6 secs. Both pretty good for accuracy.

    RW Predictions
     Date          MM        1/2 Marathon       Marathon       Pace                                                               Actual Time         Prediction
    12.03.14    9:09                                    4:51:37          11:07

    02.02.14    9:24                                    4:59:35          11:26

    23.02.14                     2:33:02              5:19:03           12:10

    Interesting how near together the JG marathon prediction using my Feb MM and RW marathon prediction from my Feb half are: only 80 secs between them.   Perhaps I should aim for 5:30 (12:35 pace) and see what I have left after mile 18.   Anyone got thoughts about their own possible race strategy?

    Try again

    C

     

  • Now why didn't it work first time

    C

  • Sorry Lainey

    Got wrapped up in the technical mess up above. I'm a bit confused why you are moving from 30/30 to 60/60 because you were slower this week. They are both the same ratios but 30/30 will stop you getting tired longer than 60/60 because the segments are shorter i.e. you only have to run for 30 secs at a time.

    Or have I misunderstood.

    C

  • I was just trying it out Chris.  I thought I may as well give it a crack but will be doing 30:30 on the day, as I was considerably faster (about 20 secs per mile average).  at least I know now for sure!

    Cheers!

  • Keep the updates coming ladies This is really interesting image

  • Totally agree with MM keep the updates coming, I can't wait to be getting up to the distances that you are doing, maybe by next year I will have some great longer runs to share with you

  • Hi Lainey

    What I think you are saying is really, really interesting, so to clarify, you thought using 30/30 was 20 secs faster per mile than using 60/60. That is a big difference. My gut feeling is that I can sustain the pace for longer if I use shorter segments like 30/30 but not tried to prove it to myself. It takes a lot of pressure off using the short segments in a race when you know it makes a difference to your times.

    I do think we are on to something big with this approach.

    C

  • hi all

    well, I had a busy weekend - 5k swim on the Friday evening which was exhausting and I got awful cramp in my calves, but finished 9 minutes quicker than last year image

    However, this wasn't the best prep for Loughborough half marathon on Sunday! But it was a lumpier course, I did 30/30 and finished 1 minute quicker than Retford half 2 weeks ago. But my right hip is very sore now, I have had soreness develop in that hip before, so have booked a physio appointment. Can't get in at a time I can make after school till next week, but I think it might be ok if I rest it a couple of days before running again and stretch out. 

    Apart from my hip though, my legs feel fine - muscles are great. A bit overtired though (also had to go to a concert last night that my son was playing in!) so a rest day today and I think I will cycle tomorrow instead of running to give my hip more rest

  • Mathschick

    excellent and after a massive swim as well. I can't imagine you would have been able to do it running continuously. A mad weekend, get stretching and rollering like mad. Lol

    Very impressive, you'll be competing against Davina in Sports Relief 2015!!!

    C

  • no way I would have been able to run it continuously yesterday! 

  • Yep, Chris you nailed it.  Was surprised it was such a big difference. Definitely doing 30:30 on the big day.  Will probably do it Sunday for my 13 miler too, just to get in the swing of it.

    MC-fabulous effort all weekend.  Hope you get some rest in and your legs aren't too mashed.  (Have to say one fab benefit from RWR is that my legs are virtually normal on Monday.  Odd twinge but nothing too bad.  All I do post run is a warm bath.)

  • Well done to you all on some fabulous runs. On Saturday I completed 17 miles R/W 4/1 ratio. I must admit i do feel the shorter ratio helps with the tiredness. The previous weekend I tried 8/2. This will be my longest run. My legs and knee ached on Saturday but not too bad at all today. 

    My training has been very limited due to a knee injury but I now feel I will get round London. 5.30 would be great and 5 hours amazing! Not going to put too much pressure on myself, will see how I feel on the day to see if I am able to push it a little. 

    Will have another play about with my Garmin, thanks for all the advice. 

  • LMA Play around with some shorter ratios in your taper runs because we are really finding that shorter is better especially in relation to a) surviving in one piece and b) being able to keep the running pace up. Try 60/60, 60/30 and 30/30 on a few of these shorter runs and see what the difference in your time is say over 4 miles. It may just help you to not hit the wall and crash and burn regarding your time. We are all learning as we go along, but we are definitely more impressed with times from shorter segments. You could drop to 15 or even 18 minute miles after mile 18 without using them as a planned strategy early on rather than waiting until it is too late.

    I am struggling too with what to do on the day. It is whole new territory. My worry is it is a fine line between not crashing and burning and almost going for a country stroll as I only have three paces - slow, very slow and falling over. But 8/2 or even 4/1 sounds risky to me. On paper and various calculators, I am predicting anywhere between 5hrs and 5hrs 20mins. In practice, if I go out wrong, I'll be over 6 hrs. A conservative ratio and aiming for 5hrs 30mins to start with may just leave me standing up and smiling at the end, and even that may be wishful thinking.

  • Thanks Chris, planning on a short run tomorrow. Will have a little play about with some short ratios. As you say we are now running out of time! 

  • I've got a 26 mile run at the weekend (last long one), only 2 weeks after doing 24 miles, so going very gently (on JG's instructions) in between long runs.

    Anyway I decided to do a few 800s tonight to test out some ratios. After a warm up 1.5 miles I then did 4 x 800. These were done on the road and I did an out 800 and a return 800 at each ratio.

    1     30/30          11:17

    2     30/30          11:21

    3    30/15           10:06

    4    30/15            9:58

    Look at the difference between the times for the 2 ratios. Amazing difference between the equivalent of 1/1 and 2/1. I think the short ratios really helped me to run fast as well, rather than fade half way through. The times done for each ratio were very similar to each other too.

    I wonder if I've been looking at the wrong thing worrying about pace, maybe the ratios are the real key to a good race. Suppose for instance I split the race into 3rds and do a negative ratio for the first third to stop me going off too fast, then an even ratio in the middle and finally a bigger run ratio in the last 3rd to finish strong. I wonder how this would work out e.g. 15/30; 30/30; 30/15.

    I wonder..........Mmmmmm

    C

  • @ chris: don't forget one tend to get faster during a run. That makes a comparison difficult between laps, also doing a out and back (wind etc). Ofcourse there is a difference between the 1/1 and 2/1 because you walk more and longer. I also finf that on shorter 'laps' it is easier to maintain the higher running speed while experimenting.

    But changing ratios during a race is not a bad idea at all.

    There is no real secret I'm afraid. Especially not on the longer runs. Beware of the danger of making RWR into an interval training! Running to fast during a run segment won't last for 26 miles because it will be some sort of interval training. So for the first M... choose a conservative pace and a conservative ratio. There is always time to change (read increase) speed or change the ratio further on in the race.

    Happy running image

  • Thanks Max. I do think we need to be careful not to make everything one big interval training session. As you say, that is not a good idea. My problem is I'm not even sure what conservative, as opposed to too slow, is. I will ponder the matter on my 26 miler this weekend, as it will take me a long time.

    C

  • Chris, what training plan is it that you are following that recommends doing 26m?  I haven't seen one that goes past 22.  This also seems very near your marathon date.

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