Are you and "in" or an "out"?

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  • What gets me is why Farage persisted with being an MEP ?



    He's been there 17 years - keeping his German wife in a job as his secretary and in the first 10 years he'd taken over 2 million pounds in salary and expenses.



    He was on the EU Fishing Council that met 43 times and yet he was there just the one time. He declares it's a waste of time. That's why he missed the other 42 meetings.



    If that was anyone else in a normal job - would they still have it ?



    So why doesn't he resign and let someone do his job that feels they could make a difference ?



    The man is just out for himself.I'd not trust him to mind my pint whilst I went to the loo, let alone trust him with the economy. Most of it would end up in his pocket.
  • I think England might be out very soon. 

  • DustinDustin ✭✭✭

    - Remain
    - most of the reasons mentioned. If we're not happy, change from withiin. Not cry about it and act like a spoilt child. The vast majority of Brussels directives have UK backing anyway.
    - I think when push comes to shove commoin sense will prevail. The vote will be closer to 60/40 remain than 51/49. I do worry though.

  • Dachs wrote (see)

    I should point out that, given that I'm easily identifiable on here, and am in a vaguely politically sensitive job, I don't usually do politics on this site.  This is my one exception, as I really fear we are about to make a major error.

    Same here but I would just say 1 I'm in and 2 this thread has provided plenty of sensible and reasoned arguments (on both sides, just) so thanks one and all - my OH is undecided so I'll get her to read through to see if it helps her make a decision.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    I am in, and I think most people are probably vaguely in favour of the status quo if it comes to it, but I am worried that those people won't turn out to vote and it will all go disastrously wrong.

    I've previously lived, studied, worked and claimed benefits in other EU countries.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Re Farage .. Of course the man's a fraud. A privately-educated former city trader now an MEP, pretending to be the ordinary bloke down the pub. And merrily sucking on the EU teat that he pretends to despise.

    I have no idea what business Saint Bob Geldof had, drowning him out like that on the river. What does he have to do with fishing and anyway, he's an Irishman. But his stunt did make me laugh!

  • It's very interesting - I've seen polls on a bike forum and now this running forum and both are very firmly in the Remain camp - but the Brexiteers really seem to be getting much more prominence in the rest of the media.
  • NessieNessie ✭✭✭

    I suspect that the meedya are in the Government's pocket again, and they are allowing the Brexit side enough rope to hang themselves.  Scare enough of the disengaged to get them to the polling stations next week to make sure Boris and Farage don't get their own way.

    Pity Sir Bob stopped at just drowning him out - he should have drowned him.  I'm not one to wish anyone ill, but Farage is an odious twat. This referendum is all down to his shouting and posturing at the last election, and is costing the country millions in a time of austerity.

    I'd like to put him in a boat with Gove and Chunt, and cast them adrift in the Arctic Ocean.

    Sorry, back to the reasoned arguments now. image

  • JT141JT141 ✭✭✭
    Sadly the ugliest and most callous passions that might have been inflamed by this referendum could have led to the horrendous attack on MP Jo Cox.
  • I saw that - awful news. This whole debate has damaged the country with it's lies and the spreading of fear. No matter how much you may disagree with someone - you'd have to be deranged to shoot and stab people.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭

    Well I was around when Heath signed up in 1974. Overnight we appeared to be 10% worse off and inflation went through the roof to pay for the deal.

    Did anyone mention this outcome?

    We've had elections based on scare tactics before. The result was always the same, 'those that can - do', the rest are as stuffed as they always will be regardless.

    Really, it makes no difference, 'in or out'. The same people are destined to win or lose.

    Was always so.

     

     

  • ZouseZouse ✭✭✭

    Jo Cox died from her wounds. So very awful. She was a humanitarian and one of the goodies. These are divisive, sad times. 

  • Jeez. That's so tragic. What awful news.
  • Awful image

    Back on topic, I suppose it depends what sort of circles you move in but apart from asitis on here, I only know one other person voting to leave. Everyone else I have spoken to in the real world and on social media are voting to remain.

  • PS, well said Dachs.

    I have actually got a poster in my window. I never do that.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    In my circles I'd say it's about 50--50.

    I wonder how the so-called silent majority will vote. In the last election more of them plumped for the Tories and in the Scottish referendum it was for the union (different demographics, I know).

    I also wonder how much impact our absurdly partisan press has. It does piss me off that so many of the papers are owned by tax-dodging non-dom billionaire parasites; if you want to influence opinion in this country through a media outlet pay yer feckin' taxes.

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭

    In my circles it's about 50-50 too. 

    I'm surprised by some of the people voting out, including lots of professionals in the NHS and people who have immigrated here themselves (from India, South America and even one from the EU).

  • I'm voting In.

    If we vote to leave a whole load of opportunities are going to be lost. I have two children I want them the ability to go and work or study in Europe if they wish.

    Not enough has been said about the positive aspects of Europe - the environmental and workers protection.

    But I think we will leave because older people vote more than young people and older people are more in favour of leaving, I just hope enough young people turn out to vote to protect their future
  • senidMsenidM ✭✭✭
    Sadly, in my circles, as an OAP in the wonderful LB of Havering, I'm about the 1 in 10 who wants to stay in, which is why I'm pessimistic re the vote.
  • Nose NowtNose Nowt ✭✭✭

    Thanks for the tip SenidM.

    I'm usually a kind person who gives a lift to a couple of elderly neighbours on polling days.   This time, I'll make sure I'm too busy image

  • I’m an outy.

    Clearly the unpopular choice on here, and also amongst the people I mix with in the real world (both at work and socially).

    Interestingly though, when I ask many of these same people to turn the issue on its head and consider whether, if we were currently ‘out’, would they want to vote ‘in’, not too many would.  To these people, accepting the status quo, even if it is not fundamentally what they want to be a part of, is acceptable.  I kind of get that.  It’s a comfort thing, and there is slightly more known (read, assumed) about what the future will hold if we just stick with what we have.

    For me though, I just can’t think like that.  I would rather accept that by voting out there may well be some short term economic pain (by short-term, I mean maybe five to ten years), but in exchange there is the opportunity to remove ourselves from what has become, quite frankly, a horrible mess.

    Joining Europe way back when was supposed to be just about trade, but since 1975 it has morphed into this unstoppable bloated beast of bureaucracy that, in my opinion, does more damage than good.

    There are parts of the EU, and things that it is capable of, that genuinely frighten me.  The TTIP is a prime example because I, as Joe Public, am absolutely powerless to do anything about it, despite the fact that it will have far reaching and long standing, potentially very damaging and dangerous, consequences for me, my children, my children’s children, and so on.

    Anyway, I won’t go into the minutiae reasons for my dislike of the EU, for there are many.  However, the fact that it operates without any democratic legitimacy is enough for me alone.  

    I am pleased that the referendum is only round the corner, as the ludicrous propaganda, untruths and mud-slinging (from both sides I might add) is getting so, so tiresome, and it will almost be a relief just to have it other and done with.

    As an aside, and I am not suggesting this of any contributors to this post, I do sense a certain amount of snobbery from some in the remain camp.  What I mean is that I get the impression from some ‘Bremainers’ that they look down their noses at the ‘Brexiters’, almost because “…one can’t possibly be intelligent enough to understand complex matters if they have listened to the arguments and still believe that we should leave Europe! – tsk!”. 

    I suspect that many Bremainers will label anyone who wants to vote leave as being anti-immigrant, Farage-loving sheep.  I think for this reason the polls might turn out to be not that reliable, because there are many who just don’t want the hassle of putting their head above the parapet.  Why tell the truth about how you’re going to vote to leave and face a barrage of abuse, when it’s much easier just to say nowt (or that you’re undecided, or even that you’ll be voting in) and then turn up and vote leave safely in the privacy of the voting booth? 

  • Nose NowtNose Nowt ✭✭✭

    So, you say that Bremainers are characterised by being snobs who look down on Brexiters as unintelligent

    But you say that "these people" (Bremainers) just want to accept the status quo against their better judgement, because it's a comfort thing. 

    I've seen some patronising posts on both sides - but I think you just took the lead.

  • ZouseZouse ✭✭✭
    Pudge wrote (see)

      I think for this reason the polls might turn out to be not that reliable, because there are many who just don’t want the hassle of putting their head above the parapet.  Why tell the truth about how you’re going to vote to leave and face a barrage of abuse, when it’s much easier just to say nowt (or that you’re undecided, or even that you’ll be voting in) and then turn up and vote leave safely in the privacy of the voting booth? 

    Because you are engaging in a democratic process, which, by definition requires communicating with others whose opinion may not align with your own.

    Insulting those who have an opposing opinion is simply an ad hominem attack, and has no place in a reasoned discussion - it's a common approach in political campaigning and propaganda and we are seeing on both sides in this referendum, unfortunately. How tiresome.

  • skottyskotty ✭✭✭

    I wouldn't bet on Boris and Gove saving you from TTIP either.

    Unless they don't want any trade agreement with the US after cutting ties with Brussels.

     

     

     

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭

    When Pudge says "these people" he appears to be talking specifically about the people who would not vote "in" if we were currently "out". I think his point about accepting the status quo is probably a big factor for lots of people. In fact I think his entire post is well thought out and perfectly reasonable. I also agree that there is a degree of snobbery in some of the remain camp. Of those I know voting to leave lots of them are intelligent people who I respect. It doesn't mean I have to agree with them though.

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    I'm in, mainly because I don't want to live in a country governed by the likes of Johnson/Gove/IDS/Farage; and sick off all the country's problems being blamed on immigration.

    I think many people are proud to be saying they're voting leave...maybe not on a runners forum but elsewhere they are. 

    I was thinking we were heading for Brexit....not sure now after yesterday's events.

    I think this whole referendum has been very ugly. That Farage campaign poster yesterday.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    I thought TTIP was most likely to fail because the French were blocking it for the EU?

  • Nose NowtNose Nowt ✭✭✭

    HA77  -  Clearly many Leave campaigners are very intelligent (including at the top where I think Gove has looked far more prime-ministerial than Boris).

    Clearly there are valid opinions within his post - it was the way he dismissed the Bremainers as snobs, and yet took such a "holier-than-thou" line himself, using some pretty condescending language that irritated! .

  • HA77HA77 ✭✭✭

    NN - I guess we all read differently into things. I didn't read his post as being condescending. Maybe I recognise that accepting the status quo plays a part in my decision so am somewhat more sympathetic. 

    Westy - People are asking after you on the P&D thread wanting weather reports.

    I can't help but think that the leave campaign would do better if Farage wasn't around. Anyone who likes him is going to vote leave anyway and those who are on the fence are likely to be put off. There is one of those posters just down the road from my work. I couldn't believe it when I realised what it was about. The whole thing is quite upsetting but something about seeing kids in the poster really got to me.

    I'm Australian anyway so maybe I shouldn't be voting. Only citizens get that right back home. I figure I've been here long enough and paid enough taxes to have a say.

  • Have you seen the meme about the fisheries policy with Nigel Farage and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall?

    Absolutely says it all.

    Another example of Leave making it an issue to back up their so-called "concerns" about the EU rather than doing something about it.

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