Shades Marathon Training



  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I just had a quick look on the Lonely Goat site, and indeed there is no mention of ARC, but they're affiliated with EA.  I'm obviously going to try and get committee to change their mind but I think one issue may be that members have been buying a lot of the new kit on the assumption that they had to before January, whereas if we change now they may end up saying there was no point in spending money on the new kit....

    Just done a 5-miler with the HR monitor on.  I decided to just go out at my normal training pace/effort, not having HR displayed on the watch and with no HR alerts.  It was a normal route with a couple of inclines that I ran up, to see what the results were afterwards.  I'll discount the first mile as HR wasn't right for the first half mile or so (162bpm, even though I was running steadily).

    2.  9:49min/mile.  143bpm (mainly uphill)
    3.  9:14min/mile.  143bpm (mainly downhill/flat)
    4.  9:27min/mile.  145bpm (mixed)
    5.  9:41min/mile.  147bpm (mainly uphill).

    It wasn't a totally flat route and running slowly up the moderate hills the HR peaked at 158 on a couple of occasions.  73%-79% Max has me at 142-154bpm.  So I'm a bit torn as I feel I need to run up the moderate hills to get better on the hills, but even running slowly/steadily it goes over the higher HR limit.  But it was a nice run out :)  
  • Shades, probably aching after the busy morning yesterday.  I need to consider getting back to the gym, once I'm there and a bit of routine I'm hoping I can watch my weight.

    Cal looking in good form for the sub 4, seems you've had the best uninterrupted block of training.

    Ian hope the knee sorts itself.  As Shades says they are weird things, remember a few days before an ultra I had a sore knee, still went and ran it and no more problems after.

    Big G new shoe runs are great! I've got a couple of pairs I've picked up over this nightmare year to look forward to when I start running.

    Yesterday I had an apt at the clinic regarding the blood clot/ dvt.  It was just some important information dos and don'ts.  The nurse was informative and empathetic and my injury and understood and noted my frustrations that some of this information would have been useful alot earlier.  Shouldn't take anti inflammatory with the meds, shouldn't pound the streets running as the clot could flake off and go to the lungs.  I said the doctor at ambulatory care wasn't much use even giving me a prescription when the pharmacy was closed.

    The bit that surprised/ shocked me is I take the tablets for 6 months, I phone them and tell them i'm okay and thats the end of it.

    Away for the weekend, family wedding down at Eastbourne, Hope to get back to the gym next week but said the same this week.  It's not convenient at the moment as they have probs with their showers.     
    Big G - I would want to be in an ARC club rather than EA, I dropped my EA licence a few years ago.

    Yes, I can see that whatever the committee decide re the new kit it won't please some of those that feel that they were 'made' to buy the new kit, however, not the committee's fault that the rules have since been changed.   Wurzel might want to go back to his old vest ;) 

    Nice HR run, when you start HRM training you will get those differences in pace when the terrain isn't flat and that can be frustrating.   You're racing now so you can't stick to base training so a run every now and then up to 80% is fine.  You can try that same route say just before Berlin and see if there's any change.

    Robert - it is so much easier to be weight conscious when running and/or going to the gym regularly as being surrounded by folk in pursuit of fitness does seem to focus the mind.    Try MyFitnessPal, it can be quite time consuming that you have less time to eat ;) 

    Re your clot, I suppose the anti-inflammatory meds already thin the blood to some extent.   When will you be able to run, when the clot has dispersed?   

    Have a good weekend at the wedding.

    Pilates today was good but lots of work on the adductors and mine were sore before the class so no chance of tackling the lower body workout after that, my legs were like jelly after the class.   But I went into the gym and did the upper body workout and that was fine, most of it seemed fairly easy except for one which I struggled with a bit on the final set.   Whole workout took 40 minutes, didn't need a warm up as straight out of Pilates, that was with no interruptions or delays as gym was quiet, I really enjoyed it.
    When I got home I had to put the bins in and I can feel all the muscles in my upper arms so am pleased with that, DOMS tomorrow I think.  

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-We haven't changed our club kit in about 100 years so don't think theres much chance of us having the same issues.
    Shades-Hope the doms isn't too bad.
    Knee still little sore today,but off my feet a bit more today so hoping that helps,if it's no better I will take Big G's advice and DNS sunday,really hope not though as the weather is looking good and felt in really good shape for a decent PB.
  • Ian - Basingstoke 10k is the target. HM course is undulating (I won't call it hilly in case Shades/Big G have a look at the course!!) Hope the knee recovers.

    10 miles with strides today.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I was wondering about doing another MAF test before Berlin if conditions are good and comparing that to the last time I did it.  After a 1-mile jog down, last time I did 5 miles at 142bpm on the flat seafront, and noted the min/miles.  It was good conditions, but a slight headwind in one direction, but then again there nearly always is a slight breeze on the seafront.  I also do have a 10-mile route that I regularly do, which is basically today's route, plus the main part of Torbay Half route, so it would be interesting to see what the HR is on that with the inclines over a longer distance.  I didn't really want to do 10-miles today though, as I did 12 miles yesterday in total.

    You're right that I'm doing too many races really, but then again I want to be doing the races as in some ways they're the priority in terms of keeping the numbers ticking over.  I guess it's one of those areas where it's difficult to get it 100% right.  
  • Good running, folks.
    Big G, 140s is what I'm getting for most of my easy/steady runs, based off the watch (wrist only).
    Interestingly, this one also tracks sleep so I've been wearing it to bed. Not sure how it does it but it figures out your sleep phases. Turns out I'm a pretty terrible sleeper. Not enough sleep and not enough deep sleep.
    Rob, yes, that info would have been good earlier on. I guess you can walk parkruns - bummer that you can't run though.
    8 miles today. Enjoyable run - would have run longer but I got thirsty. Still haven't been to yoga.
    edited September 2019
    Ian - there would probably be a riot if your club decided to change club colours.   Some clubs have a long history in athletics and their club kit is special and part of that heritage.

    How's the knee?   Are you going to do a little test run today or tomorrow to see if you can run pain free?

    Steve - you've done tough races with tough hills, so if you say it's undulating I believe you :) 

    Cal - I'm not a great sleeper and I think if my watch told me my sleep was poor that would make me feel worse about it.  Technology is not always helpful.

    Big G - hills and a headwind are what can affect tests/training with HRM most but if you had a slight headwind last time then that would be comparable conditions for your next MAF test.

    I didn't mean that you were doing too many races, just that races or any fast running, will affect base training.   That's what happens to me every year, I do a period of base training and then once I start racing after a while my base level deteriorates as I'm racing too often and then I go through the cycle again.

    On MFP how did you get on logging your running?   IMHO it way over estimates calories burned when running and although I'm not using my exercise calories I would prefer a more realistic total.

    I'm getting on much better with MFP now that it has my usual foods listed so not so time consuming.  Today I'll be cooking some stuff for the freezer from scratch, so far if I've eaten from the freezer I've had to estimated the calories.   But I was really hungry last night and I was already 100 calories over my daily limit so already getting tougher and only on Day 2.   Didn't help my mood that MFP last night said that if I continue to stick to my target I will lose 2lbs in the next 5 weeks!!!!!! :o  I didn't need to read that when I was hungry.   Anyway I've dropped a pound this morning but woke up hungry too and had to have a banana and 2 coffees before my run.

    8 miles this morning, only 7 degrees when I went out, light winter kit required!   Legs still a bit tired, hamstrings too now after Pilates yesterday.
  • Shades - 7 degrees?? :o I guess summer is over then!
    Cal - I think it must monitor movement, but like you I don't know exactly how mine knows when I'm sleeping or not!!
    Might do parkrun tomorrow, not at 5k pace but maybe 10k pace...will see on Saturday.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019
    Robert, sorry, I somehow missed your previous post.  Not great about the information not being made available in a timely manner :(  I'm a fully-fledged fan of the NHS but I have to say I'm not entirely happy with certain aspects, but the personal interaction I've had with the medical pros has been good.  It just took too long, in my mind, to see them in the first place.  If I had a physical job where I had to go and do things physically like a builder, plaster, mechanic etc, I still wouldn't be able to work now, which if I was self employed would obviously be a problem!

    Shades, regarding MFP and the calories burned, I was never entirely sure it was accurate so only used it as a guide really.  If your Garmin also measures calories, there is a setting accessed via the MFP website (not the app) which I think made it slightly more believable, as it lowered MFP's estimate of the calories burned.  The below setting is under Settings->Food and Exercise Diary Settings.

    I think the main thing the app does for me is make me really aware of portion sizes.  I know you mentioned you don't eat cereal, but 30g of cereal or porridge is really nothing, but that's supposedly a portion size.  If I'm not careful, I reckon I can easily have four times that, and even that doesn't seem too much!  30g was not worth having for me, so I had 60g.  It's an eye opener how much I can quite easily tuck away if I just pile the food on the plate as normal!  And decent bread is very calorific, which is a shame as I like bread!  I think also for me the first few days are quite hard probably partly because it was on my mind a lot, but after that it wasn't too bad.  But again I was never entirely sure if the calories were accurate as I wonder if I maybe burn more calories through exercise/running than the average person, and obviously we need energy to do what we do.  I saw something on Strava that I apparently do more mileage than 99% of the people on Strava, which I imagine means all of us on this thread would be the same (although maybe Strava was just saying that to make me feel good... ;) )

    I was going to do a 3-miler this morning before tomorrow's marathon.  But tomorrow's race is a toughie so I've decided a rest day from running and just some gentle walking is what I'll be doing today.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-Yes I'm going for a run this afternoon,its not really a pain as such,just it feels like theres something there irritating it.
    Big G-If you just type a random name into strava (not yours) you will see lots of profiles that have been set up and never used,probably why we are in the top 1%
    If I ever decide to really shoot for a harder time I may need to look at my diet,but I dont think I want it that much.
    Big G - I haven't linked my Garmin to MFP, I don't even bother with Garmin Connect as the data is not what I want.   My Garmin also estimates my calories but that's way over as most GPS watches are.  I just looked at the settings on my Garmin and it doesn't even give me the option of entering my BMR (nor does MFP) so it's just making a random calculation based on my age and weight.   Incidentally my Garmin still has my age as it was when I bought the watch, so that's crap too.

    I've just gone on MFP and set up a 'new exercise' and put running in miles at 50 calories a mile which I think is about right for me, so problem solved :) :smile: 
    MFP is definitely good for portion control, only shock I've had so far was the olive oil.   But it's worth checking the nutritional detail on any packets (or scanning them) as so many folk have set up foods with ridiculous discrepancies in the calories, I've had to resort to other websites to check some of the calories.   Maybe for those that sign up to the premium package have a reliable database.

    Nice pat on the back from Strava, but aren't there millions of cyclists on there that don't run either.   I also signed up to Strava but never registered any training so Ian is probably right.

    Good idea to rest those legs today, you've got those steps to do tomorrow :'( 

    Ian - I hope your run later today goes well.

    That's what most runners do re diet/food, it's always the final aspect of training that runners decide to tackle.   If you're well and keeping your weight constant and your energy levels too, then nothing to worry about, enjoy your food.
  • Indeed, Steve. It didn't recognise my afternoon nap as sleep, but I have my sleeping hours set from 10 to 5 so I guess it goes off that (it knows when I wake up earlier or later, though). My record, since I started wearing it to bed, was 6 hrs 59. Last night was 4 hrs 50. I think my problem is that I actually don't like sleeping very much and only do it because I have to. I don't mind going to bed (in fact I get very grumpy if I can't sleep when I need to, through being out or through other people making noise), but I don't much like staying in it once it gets remotely close to morning.

    Anyway, I did a 5 mile recovery run this morning, and I finally made it to yoga. My groin is a bit niggly today - I don't think it likes it when I run slowly. The faster I go, the happier my body is, as a rule.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Good luck for tomorrow.
    Went for 6 miles to see how the knee felt,wasn't too bad,doesn't feel perfect but ok to run on most of the time,only time it felt tight was if I looked backwards over my shoulder then the motion tightened my knee a little on the inside and if I had a sharp turn it feels weird then.Still undecided what to do about Sunday,probably won't decide until the morning as I'll be going anyway to cheer the wife on.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, I see Berlin have published a Participant Brochure, and in that it says that the first two aid stations are on both sides, but then after that they're only available on the right hand side (it does say this is subject to change). 

    Had an interesting evening this evening, as we went over to Berry Head in Brixham to do some bat spotting!  There were about 20 of us in the group and the volunteers there did a talk about the rare Horseshoe Bats that live there, then we had a rummage around cow pats for beetles, and then just after the sun set we got the bat detectors out and listened to/watched the bats.
    Cal - you have my sympathy, I often have nights like that.   I never sleep through the night and often when I wake I feel quite perky and want to get up, I look at the clock and hope it's time to get out for a run, but usually isn't.   Similar last night, didn't sleep much after 3 a.m. and had woken twice before that too, but I had a good book to read.   Usually I will sleep better after such a disturbed night, I don't worry about it, I figure I will sleep when I need to.

    Ian - that's fairly similar when I get a niggly knee, in circuits we sometimes have to do a 180 degree turn and really hurts my knee, yet the following morning I can run pain free.   Just be careful, getting in and out the car, standing up etc and try and not to twist it.

    I see Bolton have announced their race date, was originally going to be autumn but now confirmed as 17th May 2020.  I was hoping it would be autumn as a definite lack of road marathons in the autumn but there are at least 2 others on the 17th May.

    Big G - ha, ha at rummaging around the cow pats for beetles ;)   I think bats are fascinating, only seem them a handful of times, usually when driving at dusk.

    9 miles for me this morning, less cold, 10 degrees and a lovely sunny morning, perfect weather for Jelly and Big G at City to Sea.
    My legs are almost twinge free today so had a much better run, however gym this afternoon and it's lower body so expect tomorrow I'll be sore.

    Yesterday I had no problems sticking to my calorie limit on MFP but I did wake up really hungry this morning and had to eat before my run.  MFP very good at reckoning up the calories when I cooked a big pot of lentil soup yesterday.   But when I closed my diary off last night MFP then informed me that if I ate the same amount as I did yesterday in 5 weeks I will PUT ON 1.9 pounds :#   I am the same weight this morning as I was yesterday. 

  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I had the Bolton email through also,they've put it 6 weeks after manchester and a week before liverpool so times quite well for them.It fits for me next year time wise,just undecided what I'm doing after boston yet.Speaking of which my application date is the friday we are on holiday so I've set a reminder on my phone so I dont miss it.
    Ian - city marathons often have to fit in with whatever other events are held in the area to get council and police approval.   For the marathon calendar autumn would have been best but the May date is not a bad date.   Liverpool seem more interested in fleecing runners for the shorter distances and not really bothered about marathon running, I don't know if you ever read this thread...

    I'm sure you won't forget to get that Boston application in, however on holiday it is easy to forget what day it is ;)
  • I got the Bolton email too - a little disappointed they've chosen May as I would have preferred Autumn.
    I've always enjoyed Liverpool, but then I've not had any problems. But I think three times is enough. I could do Bolton instead but I will probably aim to do an ultra, I think. I just need to find one that is not too hilly and is runnable (I have no interest in doing one that requires a lot of hiking - what I want is to see how far I can run).
    Lloyd parkrun today - arguably London's toughest, and in winter I have no doubt that it is. It's all trail/grass and  I can see sections that would be awful when the mud kicks in. They have cross country races there.
    It's a two lapper with a gentle uphill on a narrow trail through the trees, before turn back on itself, and then there's a much steeper hill before you come back down. The steeper hill wasn't so bad on the first lap but felt tough on the second. I ran it in 26:14 which I'm quite happy with - a low 26 is a good time for me on a hilly, off-road course (I did 27:28 at East Grinstead, which has a similar amount of climb). Age group 2nd, of 14, so that's OK too.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited September 2019
    City to Sea Marathon done, which is actually billed/advertised as 26.5 miles.  It's a cracking event, but that's not really the whole story for me today.

    I said on this thread that anything under 5hrs is a good time for me on the course, but on the day I fancied giving it a bit of a crack.  I figured that if I could get to the 20-mile point in around 2:45-2:50ish, I may have a chance at getting 4:45 or something like that.  Conditions were perfect, and the terrain was dry, so road shoes were totally fine - really couldn't have been better.  PB on this course from last year was 4:56.

    I got in with a group and I was ticking along at 8min/miles early on and was feeling okay, and the plan was to eat what I wanted/needed at the very well stocked aid stations.  Unfortunately, though the 8min/miles didn't last until the 20-miles and I started tailing off quite sharply at 13 miles, but I was still hopeful of getting to 20-miles under 3hrs, whereas previously I'd got there around 3:04 - yes, it really does take 1hr50ish to do the last 6.5 miles on this course!  However, I actually ended up leaving the aid station at about 3:08 so in the end I was 4 mins slower at that point, which wasn't good news, as suddenly sub-5 was looking very unlikely.

    My head dropped a bit but I did end up getting a second wind of sorts with around 3-miles to go, and I was trying to make the calculations to see if could get a sub-5, but it still wasn't looking likely.  It's hard making the calculations because as I say, much of it is unrunnable, so calculating pace required is tough but I just pushed on as best I could.  With a mile to go there's a steep downhill on narrow trail, followed by a steep uphill up a lot of steps, and then it's 250m to the finish.  I got up to the final flat bit with my watch was showing 4:59:05, and I absolutely legged it to finish in.....4:59:49 (watch time, so from the finish clock as I crossed the line there maybe a second or two difference one way or the other).  :)  So you could say that's more-or-less a perfect sub-5 :)  

    I am pleased to get under the 5hrs - I'd have been disappointed if I had been 10secs over, anyway!  But as the conditions were so good, I really felt I could have done better than that - it's a missed opportunity in some ways as conditions were that good, and much better than previous years.  I think I just went off very sightly too quickly and with the extra weight from my Camelbak etc, I just couldn't keep up the pace to the 20-mile point.  Plus, even though the majority of the first 20-miles is runnable, it's still a lot of trail which isn't my speciality.

    Anyway, it's done.  Fish and chips afterwards (included in the entry fee) went down a treat as always.  This was the view back along the coast I'd just ran/walked, as I was having my fish and chips.  Great event, although the medal this year is a bit crap, in my humble opinion.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Here's the pace/elevation graph :D 

    Cal - Liverpool has always gone well for you, but that poor chap on that GFA thread has put me off, still don't know if he managed to get his place at London.

    That's another tough parkrun off your 'to do' list.

    Big G - well done, job done although you did cut it a bit fine  ;)
    Tricky course to pace because of the last few killer miles.  You might be a little race rusty in the longer races too, but a good result.

    I think the quality of the fish and chips is more important than the quality of the medal.

    First gym session done on lower body programme, thankfully Saturday afternoon is still a lovely quiet time in the gym.  I really enjoyed it, think my adductors will be sore tomorrow, but no pain no gain.   :#
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Well done on hitting your target.
    Decided to go along to the race tomorrow,weather looks ideal so hoping to have a good race.
  • Good luck, Ian.

    Shades - yeah, I feel bad for the guy. I'd be gutted.

    Just been keeping an eye on the Centurian 100 mile track race (403 laps!!) - one of my clubmates, Matt Dickinson, finished third and in under 15 hours. He was running splits I'd be happy with in a 5 or 10K for much of it. Absolutely crazy!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Good luck Ian.  I hope it goes well.

    Shades, I agree - fish and chips are the priority :)    I saw RB won the 34-miler yesterday and I think broke the course record in 4:49.  His splits were unbelievable.  Basically 6:30s to 20-miles, and then a great pace over those hills.  Don't know how those front runners do that.  Also, the chap who won Plym Trail Day 1 won the marathon in 3:33.  I know he's on his way to the 100MC (I think he's done about 50) and when I spoke to him he said he's not bothering with ultras at the moment - I think he usually does the ultra at City to Sea.  Looking at his Strava he was only stood still at the aid stations for 45-secs.  As for me, I was there for 15-minutes according to Strava, although maybe some of that was it thinking I wasn't moving on the uphills, when in fact I was, albeit very slowly!  15-mins does seem a lot, as I think it was probably about 10-mins at the stations.  I was really hungry at the 20-mile station so stayed there for some time!

    I haven't checked my HR the evening after an event before.  My RHR is usually 53 but on the evening it was 78!  Back to normal this morning though.

    I was up at 3:30am as I was very hungry so I got up for some food and a cuppa tea, before going back to bed.  Legs are trashed as well.  I know it's a fairly tough course, but I've done quite a few coastal run/walks this summer, so I'm a bit surprised - I did that Seaview 21-miler in about 4hrs and felt pretty good at the end, in comparison to this.  It's still a great event though, although the 3-mile recovery shuffle this morning was a challenge!

    Makes me wonder about about 30-miler from Kingswear to Shaldon, back the other way along the coast path.  I'm sure I could do it but I think it'd have to be a "just get it done"-job as opposed to trying for a time or anything.  April could be muddy paths as well.  I'll have a further think about it before entering.  I was really happy to see it appear on the race calendar when I first saw it, but it's much tougher than yesterday's as the majority of the first 20-miles at the April event are definitely not mainly runnable - race website says it's 6500ft of elevation for the race whereas yesterday was only about 2100ft, although a large part of that is in the last 6 miles .
    Ian - hope you have a good race and no trouble from that niggly knee.

    10 miles for me this morning, a chilly 8 degrees with a very cold wind in a few places.   Must say I was slightly disappointed when I got up as my legs felt fine, just the tiniest bit of tiredness when stretching up.   Set out on my run thinking I'll have to work much harder at the gym, more reps, heavier weights etc.   Well be careful what you wish for as at 6 miles my legs really started to feel very weary and at 7 miles it was feeling like those last few miles of a marathon and every muscle was aching and felt drained of energy.   Was so glad to get home, will be taking it easy for the rest of the day and watch GNR and see if Mo can win again. 

    Very disappointing that he's not going to represent UK at the World Championships, but choosing to do Chicago instead, for the money obviously.   I hope he's not still getting lottery funding, he doesn't deserve it.  :#  
    Big G - xpost.  Yes, I heard RB had won the ultra but didn't know his time, that's a great time.  He's a really good runner and very modest with it too.  I think the last time he did the marathon there he won in about 3:20, he must be strong on the road and off road too.

    The guy that won Plym Trail on Day 1 is a nice quiet and modest chap and he was chuffed with his win that day but also concerned for the collapsed runner.

    I don't think I've ever checked my HR the evening after a marathon, but I expect it would be raised too.

    If you were hungry at the food station maybe you need to be fuelling more in the earlier stages perhaps?   Was your achilles and shoulder OK?  I expect your legs are trashed from going down all those steps.

    6500 ft that's a lot of climbing.    But yesterday having all the climb in a relatively short distance makes that hard, especially as it's in the latter stages.   Much easier when the climb is spread out more over the whole distance.

    I wonder what the climb is on that one that Beyond Events are putting on in April.
    I'm tracking another Maverick (DB) at the moment, he's doing the 70.3 World Championships at Nice today, having won the World Champs for his age group last week for standard distance triathlon at Lausanne.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I don't really know RB that well, but the guy at Plym Trail I've got to know a bit over the races I've seen him at.  You're right, he's a really nice chap.  We've recently started following each other on Strava, and he gets the miles in during the week too.  I know he's gone sub-3 before, so he's obviously a great runner.  The runner who collapsed was there yesterday as well, but not sure if he was doing the ultra or marathon.  Also, the lady who did both days at Plym Trail and was first lady on Day 1 did the ultra yesterday in about 6:20 I believe.  She's aiming for the 100MC too, and is on over 50.

    Yes, I think those front runners are very good on the off-road as well as the flatter sections.  The winner yesterday is quicker than me anyway obviously but here are my last 7 mile splits, versus his.   I really do not know how he did that, as I was trying my best although from the below it doesn't really look like I was!
    20:  14:38.  7:45 (this is the aid station mile)
    21:  13:37   8:59
    22:  19:39   12:08
    23:  21:17   11:38
    24:  19:21   10:39
    25:  18:46   12:12  
    26:  13:34   10:25
    Big G - there's a bit of difference in those splits!

    I just saw on FB that MW did the ultra and finished in 7th place, don't know his time though.

    DB doing well, 9th in his age group after the bike, he's half way through the run now.  Tracker predicts he'll do the run in 1:20 :o
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