Shades Marathon Training



    Cal - frustrating Sunday run for you.   I'm sure if your route had been more to your liking you'd have had a smoother run and less trouble from the glute/hammy.

    Surely it doesn't matter about tail walking affecting average parkrun times, they're only fun runs.   But I understand not wanting to tail walk a parkrun on a very cold day or at one that is not your local event. 

    LTT - you're very welcome.   So good to hear that your training is going well, and you seem to be enjoying it. ;) 

    Big G - blimey, do they really take 1 hour 10 mins.   I saw and passed the tail enders at Llanelli parkrun and they were finishing in 45-50 minutes. 

    That's really impressive that you've managed to keep your group from Uni in contact and meeting regularly.   How did they take your non drinking and your serial marathon running? ;) 

    8 miles for me today, a little milder but still a cold wind.   Slight DOMS in my lower legs from Saturday's gym session but not too bad.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, that's a strange coincidence with that friend!  Regarding average times, I don't know what mine is but I rarely "race" them so I don't monitor that.  It's just walking around in those types of times is hard as I never walk that slowly (I can easily walk 4+mph for a couple of hours if I have to...indeed I have done when I've had to walk in the latter stages of a marathon).

    Shades, yes, depending on who turns up, some do take that time as they walk around with no running.  I suppose it's no issue, apart from for the volunteers, tail-walkers etc, and these days the "tail walker" role is a mandatory role, so that one has to be filled each week (things like pacers, report-writers etc aren't mandatory).  Generally speaking, the people who walk all of it don't tend to show up if it's really bad weather; I just checked and the last few weeks at Torbay has been around 50-55mins, with the last ones at 70mins+ being late Summer.

    One of the university friends did some running for a few years and (annoyingly!) got pretty good, pretty quickly, as he went sub-3 on something like his 2nd or 3rd attempt.  He did Boston, New York and London of the majors, plus Paris a couple of times and 3 or 4 smaller events.  But he doesn't run any more.  When I was asked how many I'd done now, there were lots of confused faces, but I always feel the need to say that although it may seem quite a lot, it's really not that many for a lot of people I know.  But when I explained that I also manage to coincide it with trips/weekends away, they kind of understood that.  Well, they can understand things like Sofia or Berlin, and even Chelmsford at a push, but when I said my next one is laps around a lake in Nottingham in what could be grim conditions, they didn't get that :) 

    I think what got them the most was me getting out the door for 8:30am on Saturday in the freezing cold for parkrun, whilst they were all nursing hangovers.  I don't think I'd be able to convince them that was a good idea :)  
    Big G - I suppose in the summer families will walk round a parkrun with small children, especially if they're on holiday, just strolling and enjoying the weather etc.   Less likely to do so in wintery conditions.

    Well I think many there are many marathon runners that also wouldn't understand either the appeal of running round that artificial lake in Nottingham.   I'm one of them.  ;)  Nottingham is a fair drive too from Devon.  I'd only do that if I needed an emergency event, or maybe if it was a couple of miles down the road.   Shame the Robin Hood marathon is no more, it was a good race.

    However, I'd rather go out on a chilly morning for a run than have a hangover :)
  • MF - Congrats on a great time and Happy Birthday.
    Cal - Getting closer to completing those London parkruns.
    I did 17 miles on Saturday, started out when it was -2c!!, but it felt good, compared to last weeks 15!, then 5 miles plus some of my strength work on Sunday, as some how managed to hurt my shoulder blade on the Saturday, so missed off or went lighter on the upper body work. Think that was 45 miles for me for the week.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades the main reason I entered it again is because I do have good memories of it as I did well there last time so all being well I'll have a good run again this time.  Plus another reason is that I want to catch up a bit on all the events that I missed in the Spring.  I have a confession to make - I've even been looking to see if I can get an Enigma one or two in this year, even though I said I wasn't going to any of those this year and so far haven't.  But I'm not going to this year, although I will end up doing a smallish number next year.
  • Big G, I  had that exact conversation with Tunde on Saturday (about 100 MCers doing laps of a lake in Milton Keynes :D)
    For me, I race my marathons - I want to do as well as I can and I like the buzz, the support and running with a few thousand people. I have no interest in the little ones like SVN, Enigma etc. Each to their own, of course, but it's not for me.

    Steve, nice long run. Are you doing P&D?

    Happy Birthday, MF!

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Cal, yeah, I understand that.  They're certainty not everyone's cuppa tea and last year I was getting a bit bored with the Enigma one, hence why I've not done any of those this year.  I can't race all mine though as I would get too tired and/or injured and as my main goal at the moment is the 100, these types of events fit with that, alongside the others where I do try and do my best on the day (I.E., Berlin, Chelmsford, etc).
  • Cal - At the moment I am just ticking over and keeping the mileage up, but I will be using a P&D plan for Manchester.
    Steve - hope the shoulder is OK.  Not working you too hard on that strength work, is she?

    I can't remember if you've done Manchester before?

    Big G - yes, I remember you had a great run at that event.   There are some multi lap events that I've really enjoyed, although for a marathon they would never be my first choice, I don't mind a two lapper though.

    I've never done any SVN events, they certainly don't appeal to me nor Enigma events, although I might do an Enigma one if I need an emergency race to make my numbers stack up right for my next century count.
    I entered an Infinity event in Wales as it was 95% tarmac, laps of 3 miles, and I intended to run ultra distance there, it's a 7 hour race, I needed more ultras to run and very few tarmac in this country.    Unfortunately the event was cancelled and she switched me to another event which was too much off road for my liking and she's very kindly given me another race entry FOC too which I'll use next year.

    Like Cal I race all my events too, but sometimes as in the Infinity event the going was too rough for my foot and I have to scale back on the day.   Likewise with Cornish weather and Plym Trail weather I still did my very best on the day.   Unlike Cal though my preference would be for much smaller marathons, as I prefer to run and do pre race stuff with no congestion or queuing, but I also enjoy the contrast between big city marathons and smaller country events.   I'm fortunate though that I can race to the absolute best of my ability and still recover do another marathon the following week.   I have done marathon PB's on consecutive weeks.

    6 miles this morning, chilly. bit of rain and a coldish wind but had a good run. :)   Pilates and gym later this morning.
  • I'm not sure how you recover so well, Shades - what's your secret? I always seem to get sick or my niggles start playing up. I need to sort this out because I only have 5 weeks between Tokyo and Manchester next year.

    Talking of Abbott Majors, I had a dream just before I woke up this morning where I was in America for one of the majors (couldn't quite figure out if it was NY or Chicago). Colin was with me, which wouldn't happen as he won't come to America, and had packed all this food for me. We were in quite a swanky hotel. I was getting ready for the race and realised I had forgotten to go to the expo so I didn't have a chip or number. The realisation I'd travelled all that way and couldn't run had just hit me when I woke up.

    However, I did have a pretty good run this morning. I felt a bit down in the dumps yesterday - I just couldn't seem to motivate myself to do anything, even yoga (it was a rest day, but I usually do something). But I felt better this morning and got out at around 6:30am. Did a 7 mile run comprising of 6 miles progression plus a cool-down. I went from 10:30 down to 8:48 pace - funny thing for me was that last mile felt really fast, even though it's not as fast as my HMP, and looking at my stats I realise it was because my average cadence for that mile was 189. My stride is always a bit shorter early in the day so I guess I made up for it by running like Roadrunner. :D
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades/Cal, I think for me, I can "race" them if I have a weekend in between events I'm trying to race.  But if I try and race two on consecutive weekends, the second one wouldn't go as well.  Also, to be totally honest, I need a bigger event to perform at my best.  There is no way on earth I'd get near a PB running around an Enigma event with only  a few other runners, all spread out across the course.  Plus, it's narrow in places, with sharp corners that you have to slow right down on to make sure you don't run into the lake.  That was another good thing about the Nottingham one as it was a fairly large event so I was always running with someone, or having someone slightly ahead to try and slowly reel in.  Something like Chelmsford was ideal as it was big but not too big.  Berlin was fine for me as I had an unobstructed run for the majority of it, although I know others mentioned it was too busy where they were.  Anyway, when I look at the calendar and see I have 6 or 7 in consecutive weekends, I may try and pick out one or two to have a proper crack at, whereas the others wouldn't be "raced" as such - I still do my best, but I suppose constrained by the fact I know I have another one the following week so always looking ahead.  Also, I need it to be pretty flat to do a decent time, and obviously all this depends on injuries etc anyway.

    Cal, I had a related dream at Chelsmford.  For that race, they sent out the race numbers in advance, but I dreamt that I had left the number at home....

    Committee night last night.  Club Champs for next year was agreed, with another marathon in again which I'm pleased about it.  This year looks like it could be a bumper year with more finishers than recent previous years.  There are 3 races left and there are a decent number who have already finished it, but also a decent number with only one race required to complete it.  
  • Shades - It's eased up a lot now, I think I might have slept on it in. Yes, I did Manchester in 2017, my marathon PB course!
    As for the strength work, it's all low weight, but higher reps (2 sets of 15 reps).
    Anyway, another cold 13 miles this morning.
    Cal - there's no secret to it but recovery runs the next morning after a long run or any race to me is an essential part of recovery.  If for any reason my recovery run is delayed, by even a day, that has a significant  effect on delaying my recovery, puts me back several days.   Just easy paced running in between events, no faster stuff at all.   It just takes a bit of practise, the other part that's important is to mentally ignore that you did a marathon a few days/a week/whenever before, if you tell yourself your body/legs will be tired then that's how they'll respond.  
    After your last marathon you were ill, so nothing you could do about that.

    Ha, ha at the dream.  I've often dreamt that I'm at a big city marathon and got to the start too late and they won't let me start.

    Big G - I agree, there are certain events that it would be very difficult to do/attempt a PB just by the nature of the course and I don't mean because it's not flat.  You need a course where you can run freely and at your own pace, tight corners throw you off your rhythm and break that zone that you're in.

    Steve - I thought you had done Manchester before.   
    Glad the shoulder is getting better.

    Pilates with the weights again, great workout and although the weights are very light after 55 minutes my arms are exhausted.   Luckily  it was lower body session in the gym today.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I didn’t run on Sunday or Monday, but did 10 miles today. Had a real spring in my step so although it was blustery I had a good/enjoyable run out today. Pace a bit quick for a longer run pace, but I went with it as I was enjoying it. 
  • Did 10 miles myself this morning. Went out just before 6:30 and the moon was huge. Then saw the sun come up.
    It felt like a very long run even though it wasn't in the general scheme of things. I was experiencing some discomfort inside my ankle - not sure if it's the achilles again or posterior tib. I know post tib is rather tender. I'll ask my masseur about it later.
    Hammy wasn't bad. I can feel it but nothing like as noticeable as Sunday so it probably was the hilly parkrun that irritated it.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Steve, there was a recent edition of the MarathonTalk podcast recently where Holly Rush interviewed a guy whose main sport is strength training, but who is also a runner - episode 513.  I'm only mentioning it as he was very much of the mindset that a low number of reps at a higher weight was best for runners trying to introduce some strength training.  He was saying that if runners do more reps at lower weights, they're likely to get more fatigued and have tired legs etc on the next run.  He was talking along the lines of 4 or 5 reps per set, based off a fairly high "one rep max" %.  I know nothing about this really as I'm very lacking in this area, but thought I'd mention it.
  • Big G - Yes, I listened to that one too! The OH and her studies say different on the number of reps (if training for endurance), but I guess like many things, there is more than one way to get results. I know my legs don't get the fatigue on 15 reps, but I also know that is because I've kept the weight low (I'll see if that is the case when the weight increases). But I know everybody is different and they respond to different stimuli, so I guess it's very trial and error.
    8 miles this morning.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Steve, yeah, when I posted my previous message I was thinking exactly the same as you, in that there are no doubt different methods for different people.  It's not something I do (I should!) so when I heard his episode I was interested, so thought I'd mention it here.  As you say, trial and error and if what you're doing is working for you then great!!
    Cal - that moon is amazing.

    Big G/Steve - Interesting about the strength training.   I'm working out in the gym but I'm not strength training yet, that comes later.   I'm trying to reduce fat and build muscle so at the moment that's what my programme is designed for.   I do 4 x 12-15 reps and at as heavy a weight I can manage for that number of reps without failure
    When I've reached the level that I'm happy with I'll move onto strength training which is heavy weights but very low number of reps and long recovery time in between, or sometimes just one set, just as Big G has quoted.

    When I had my last analysis at the gym I have gained muscle but not gained any strength, I knew that without the machine telling me though. ;) 

    My next gym analysis is a week today.

    Great circuits class followed by gym, upper body.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Shades, he mentioned in passing something about different weights at different reps.  I've just done a simple calculation based on 100kg one-rep-max (I'm just using these figures for ease).
    1)  5 reps at 80% (80kg)= 400kg
    2) 15reps at 50% (50kg) = 750kg

    So actually in 2) a person is lifting more weight per set presumably over a longer time period (i.e., it takes longer to do 15 reps compared to 5 reps), so maybe that's why he was saying that 2) is more fatiguing?  But he was saying there's more benefit in terms of gaining strength at the higher (80%) level in 1).  He did say it's worth getting advice on what the one-rep-max is from a professional so as a) to make sure it is indeed the one-rep-max and b) to not injure yourself.  I suppose it's similar to when we work out our Max HR it's very good to know what that actually is rather than a rough estimate as it can greatly impact training zones if the max isn't accurate.
    Big G - yes, that's right.  Some calculate the total weight lifted and divide it accordingly when they're doing strength training.  Your one rep max would be calculated by what you had been doing prior in the gym, nothing like max HR as it would alter as you get stronger.

    But remember strength training comes after a long period of weight training, you wouldn't start strength training as a novice and you should have a fair bit of experience before moving onto strength training.   Most that start strength training would do so with a spotter, an instructor or friend that helps with advice on technique and also there for safety, depending on what exercise you were doing.   
    The guy that I told you about at the gym that offered to do a session with me would have acted as my spotter. I'm not ready for that yet as I'm not doing strength training yet, so I've taken a rain check on his offer. ;)
  • Shades / Big G - I know when OH did some fitness tests on me, before starting training and after 4/5 weeks, that my hamstring flexibility had improved a lot, so I'm hoping that will help with running.
    I'm not looking to get stronger in a lifting sense, but using this to give me a small % improvement in my running.
    I've read/listened to loads of interviews where people have PB'd after doing strength training, so I know it must be good for me!!
  • I used to train that way - I had a 70kg bench press at one point and could deadlift 115kg and push 40kg over my head. What I will say is there is huge potential for injury. I don't train this way any more because my rotator cuffs are buggered and I figured that as I got older, it wasn't smart to keep trying for PBs (well, not lifting ones, at any rate).
    Having said that, I do need to start lifting again but I will probably aim for 12-20 reps.
    Steve - that's great progress in your hamstring flexibility in a short time, your OH obviously knows her stuff.  The sort of strength work you're doing should indeed help your running and it's the best we can do to injury proof ourselves too. 
    We do a lot of work on our hamstrings in our pilates classes, the instructor always tells us that we must work our hamstrings as they are so important, she has some killer exercises in her repertoire.

    Cal Jones said:
    I used to train that way - I had a 70kg bench press at one point and could deadlift 115kg and push 40kg over my head. What I will say is there is huge potential for injury. I don't train this way any more because my rotator cuffs are buggered and I figured that as I got older, it wasn't smart to keep trying for PBs (well, not lifting ones, at any rate).
    Having said that, I do need to start lifting again but I will probably aim for 12-20 reps.

    Cal - wow, that's impressive, but I can understand that you don't want to start that sort of lifting again.
    Have you started back at the gym yet, or are you waiting to see the physio guy to sort out your couple of little niggles first?

    6 miles today for me.   I wasn't looking forward to this run as it was already down to 3 degrees at 8pm last night and I knew it was going to be a cold one, plus we had a fair bit of rain yesterday so ice was a possibility.   Put loads of clothes on and a warm beanie hat, it was cold but thankfully although some ice on cars the roads were ice free on my route even though they were still wet after the rain.   I had a really good run, but legs a bit achy after circuits so it took a good mile before they warmed up.

    I've lost another pound, that's 7 pounds now, I'm losing about a pound every 3 weeks now which is OK. :)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    For people who have RW notifications turned on, have yours changed in the last couple of days?  My emails now show the content of the post rather than just a notification of who posted it. It’s better I think as you don’t have to open the website to see the post. I wonder why they’re making changes though, especially something like that, as this would have the potential effect of having people coming to  the site less frequently. 
    Big G - I don't have the notifications turned on but I have noticed that if I happen to be reading or typing a post on the thread and someone has posted while I'm doing that the whole of their post comes up on the left hand side of the screen in the same place that 'Draft saved 00:00' does.

    Pilates instructor ill today so we had a completely different type of class with the instructor that does some of the pilates classes, she's one of the managers at the leisure centre.

    So we had a class on using a foam roller, I've never used one before, I'm probably one of the few runners that doesn't have one.   Anyway we had a good detailed lesson explaining that if you want to use a foam roller effectively you have to start with static stretching, then dynamic stretching before finally being able to use the roller for which ever muscles you want to roll.  We did hamstrings, most folk found that really painful but my hamstrings are OK at the moment so no discomfort for me.   However, when we came to the quads and then the calves, both extremely painful for me, I knew I had sore legs before we even started.   She did say that we shouldn't be using the knobbly rollers, but start with soft smooth rollers if never used them before.
    Anyway it was really interesting but I don't think I'll buy one. I think it would end up behind the sofa.   She said my leg session in the gym would be a lot easier after the rolling but it wasn't.  I enjoyed trying the roller out though.
  • Cal - Nice lifts there!!
    Shades - That's nice and controlled weight loss, which is the best way to do it imo.
    4 miles and strength work today. 1 mile warm up and cool down with 2 faster miles (6:35/6:42), not as fast as I'd like, so some work to do there, but first fast miles I've done since my 10k!!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    A cold 10-miler in some light rain this morning.  I had an NHS heath check first thing (just a blood test, with results next week)  and then went for the run after that.  It apparently is quite a comprehensive test with diabetes, thyroid, cholesterol and other checks.  I got a letter saying that as I fall in the 40-70 year old age group I qualify, which suddenly made me feel quite old...

    Some of you probably know that I'm a bit of a techy geek.  Well, since moving into this place, I've gone a bit overboard with the home automation stuff.  I'm that lazy I now don't even have to get up to turn the lights on/off.  :D  In fairness, although I suppose it is quite geeky, the Amazon Alexa-supported stuff is very, very easy to set up.  I remember probably around 15 years ago I put all my music on a server and it took hours to get it to work with my music system over WiFi, and I kind of know what I'm doing!  This Alexa-supported stuff is up and running in minutes.

    I'm trying to convince OH that we need a robotic vacuum cleaner, which of course responds to voice commands via Alexa.  I keep on telling OH that I'm sure the cat and dog will love it, but she's not convinced (the dog is scared of the just goes about his day and ignores it).  I have a vested interest in this device as one of my chores/jobs is to do the vacuuming....
  • Shades, I actually went to the gym for the first time today. The track gym is very small but it has a decent range of machines and weights. I mostly stuck with posterior chain stuff - glutes, hams, back and a bit of abs, since that's what I need. Even though I lifted light and did just 1-2 sets, I expect I'll be a bit sore tomorrow. I'll build up slowly.
    I think I most likely will cancel the yoga membership. It's £81 a month, which is nearly 4 weeks of food. I might get a 10 class card so I can drop in on the odd class if I feel like it, but if I feel like it I won't feel like I'm wasting a membership. However, I do have to give a month's notice so I'll be a member until the end of December if I cancel now.
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