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SL - coaching group - your being coached in a group? We've got something similar going on up here, A coach from another club is trying to put together a decent group targetting something about 2-30 at london. He's been really helpful with pointers in the short term, and has sent me a plan he's put together for one of his athletes for me to tweak. The plan is to try to get groups together for the more serious sessions which should also help make the longer runs more testing. Can't wait
And from the aforementioned coach, I've been doing reps @ target 10mile pace for this weekends race. Tonight it was suggested 8 x 800 @ slightly faster than race pace with 2 mins recovery. Reps averaged 2.37 and were comfortable so probably perfect confidence booster for sundays race
R33 - the run tomorrow should only be to turn the legs over and should help to recover between the two runs. Personally I'd do something between 3 and 6 miles but offroad and slow
A bit late into the debate, but I think planning to do 8-10 > 20M may be too many for folks around the 3-3:15 times (and definitely not needed to go sub-3). My reading of these forums is that most people around these times are running 40-50mpw. A campaign with lots of 20M and lots of 13-15M midweekers seems a very single-minded week. I'm not saying these are bad per se, but where the rest of life constrains running to a fixed total of 40-50, then investing the bulk of this into two sessions is betting all the training on endurance. Not necessarily wrong, there are folks whose speed is fine and whose endurance is not, but a faster 10k and HM will also convert to a faster marathon.
Both the two marathons I've done have converted at 2 x HM + 15min. I'm quite relaxed about the conversion as the halves were both on fast courses in good conditions (GER/Reading) and the marathons (Luton/Edinburgh) not. This is also a reminder of another reason why convertors can be out, as there are many more opportunities to run shorter races than there are marathons, and a marathon is easier to get badly wrong than a 10k.
For me, McMillan's pace calculator gives marathon targets at least 5 minutes too optimistic; at my peak, I did under 77 half, but a 2:54 marathon. OK I had a cold for that marathon but I'm not sure that made much difference. In retrospect I don't think I was even close to 2:47 shape this year even without falling ill, despite my 10-mile time.
I think some of it is that I used to be good at pushing myself to the absolute brink in shorter races. I seem to have lost that in the past couple of years, which is probably a good thing - I tend to feel great just 5 - 10 minutes after an XC these days when previously I'd still be barfing and hyperventilating.
XC race for me today - the Inter Financial Services XC. Quite a few familiar faces there from other races. Came about 30th out of maybe 100 - quite a fierce pace over a fairly tough course (Roehampton Gate), with a steady uphill start that had my legs screaming after just 2 or 3 minutes. Quite pleased, other than an inability to really kick for home at the end.
I agree with Piscator too. I don't think I've really benefited from midweek long runs, nor with an obsession with 20-milers. I think I get more from a hilly 15 around the park than I do from a flat 20 plod along the river. The midweek ones are just too much for my work commitments, and I think encourage a bit of mileage-chasing for the sake of it.
I ran a sub-3 with only 3 >20 milers, and an average mileage of just under 42 miles a week. That was a close call which took me a long time to recover from; it was certainly easier when I upped it to 6 >20 milers and an average of 51, which is roughly what I'm aiming at this time (hopefully this time without picking up any broken ribs, lung infections etc. at key points).
Keir - I know they set such a bad example for me
Mcmillan converts my 84:15 HM to 2:57.41, but I did 2:56.02 with stopping to stretch once, so I must be better at the longer stuff. Then again my training was all aimed at the marathon and built up over 18 months.
WTGY - hope no snow for Thirsk!
I always out perform the calculators but the info I normally use is from an un-tapered "B or C" race, so that's hardly surprising.
Got up early on to the treadmill to watch the ashes, wish I hadn't bothered.
MtR - i've got similar stats to back that theory up. Edinburgh for 2:57:xx was off average of 34 miles per week in the 12 weeks prior (38mpw in the 18 weeks prior).
Abingdon for 2:44:xx was off 62mpw in the 12 weeks prior, and 55mpw in the 18 weeks.
The additional miles and getting a few medium long mid weeks runs in, and a few doubles with jog commutes seemed to help my endurance, so i've ended up close to the predictor tools as well on my conversion with my 77:42 half PB predicting just a minute under my marathon PB.
However it means i have a sh*te 10km PB compared to what the predictor says i shoudl have. I think this is just because i don't focus on racing the 10km's usually see it as part of a longer run, or just part of marathon build up.
Still strugging with my knee. It's (i think/hope) a very old knee injury due to a "hole" in my cartilage - had an MRI for it back in 2001. In the end rest and strengthening, and some supplements recommended by the surgeon actually helped it back then - and i've been using those supplements on and off ever since. So i have put in another order for some more (havn't had any for a few months) and hoping that and an easy does it approach will see me back running without pain soon, and posting a bit more!
Selbs - hope that you get back to it soon. You are possibly better at getting injured than I am !
MTR - nail on noggin there. Some folks can run good (for them) times off low miles, but they'd do much better off more miles, until you get to the point of diminishing returns.
I never have anything to feed into McMillan so I dont bother.
Bit Baltic on the Turbo today, had overshoes, winter gloves and a woolly hat on. Didn’t think the SPO would be impressed if I set it up in the lounge so I could watch the Ashes.
selbs: Fingers crossed for you. Such a kick in the proverbials after your excellent summer and autumn started to show what you're capable of.
I think I know what I need to work on - three main things:
1. Some speed work - I need to be able to tolerate 10k pace without my HR pushing too high. I was there a year ago before I dropped speed work in favour of hills and leg strength work.
2. Running form - I know that my form is a little odd, although it doesn't lead to injuries. And I have a tendency to rotate my whole upper body about my spine - essentially my arms pull my shoulders out of line. I'm sure this cannot be good.
3. Mental strength and confidence. When it's over a year since your last PB it can be hard to believe that you can still improve.
What I have achieved in the last year:
1. Leg strength - My legs can cope with hills and increased mileage without me feeling like an old man in the morning. My CV system is now my limiting factor again.
2. Tolerance of higher mileage - My body can cope with more miles than it could a year ago - I'm just struggling a bit to find the time to put the miles in. My job has got a lot busier than it was 2 years ago, and significantly busier than it was only 6 months ago, plus the new house takes up a lot of my time.
As a guide I try to make sure the sum of the 5 longest runs ~105M
Ditched my Gobi o'clock run this morning , the last 3 days have included 20M @ 2:27 pace (12M and a 8M) + hill intervals session - I judged that some extra sleep was needed for recovery!
Morning all
Hi Rich W, I wondered if I would see you on here. Only been on here a few weeks and already had some v good advice. Stick around and you will learn alot, as you would expect lots of differing points of view so just see which bits work for you. That said being 40 seconds over on a campaign where you averaged 25 miles a week due to injury suggests an injury free campaign of doing what you were doing should see you sail home. Which Mara are you doing next yr, I am heading back to the Dam as Mrs has an old school friend out there so its an easy sell.
Cheers for advice on books, Kinaseboy and TR, have already started the Charlie Spedding book and enjoying it. RB cheers for input on treadie.
Brian - looks like a very hard session on the treadmill, out of interest did you have it set on any gradient?
First pace run (well pace for me) for me yesterday post Amsterdam, 6 miles between MP and HMP, glad to say legs didn't grumble. Have entered a half in Feb just to give me something to work towards.
Cheers
Murph
Coro – I’m shocked, I might have to take you down from that pedestal I once held you upon.
MTR – funny that, I often wonder if I’ve already run my best marathon and should have stopped after one.
Most folks don’t realise how hard it is to win a series in Oz. The Aussies are mentally very tough and put the opposition under a lot of mental pressure, for that reason I think that KP and Trott are worth their place cos South Africans are pretty hard nosed too. We just need a few of the Englishman to stand up to be counted, which Bell did and is a big plus cos they have got to him in the past. Losing your captain 3rd ball of the series is a big mental blow, and then to lose 3 more to a hat trick means that 260 isnt too bad, but we usually struggle to bowl teams out on Aussie Wickets cos the ball doesn’t swing as much as over here. However we have the trump player in Swann. If we can limit them to 300 tops then we are still in the game. If we can bowl them out for less then its game on !
I seem to have acquired quite a few books on running in the past 4 years, some bought for myself, others given as gifts. I'd advise that you should read the Excellent ones, should enjoy the Good ones, the average ones are worth a read, the poor ones shouldn't even be opened, and there is a special category for the last one - ironically I seem to have 3 copies of it! (2 christmas presents but I'd already bought it an airport earlier that year.
Excellent
Lore of Running - Noakes
Feet in The Clouds - Askwith
Advanced Marathoning - Pfitzinger & Douglas
Born to Run - Macdougall
From Last to First - Spedding
Once a Runner - Parker
Good
Barefoot Runner - Rambali
Brain Training for Runners - Fitzgerald
Daniels Running Formula - Daniels
The Perfect Distance: Ovett & Coe- Butcher
Survival of the Fittest - Stroud
3:59.4: the Quest to Break the 4 minute mile - Bryant
Average
The Runner's Body - Tucker & Douglas
Racing weight - Fitzgerald
Ultramarathonman - Karnazes
Better training for distance runners - Martin/Coe
Pre: Story of America's Greatest Running Legend - Jordan
Again to Carthage - Parker
Running with Lydiard - Lydiard/Gilmour
Extreme Running - McConnell
The London Marathon - Bryant
Poor
What I talk about when I talk about running - Murakami
Running through the wall, personal encounters with the Ultramarathon - Jamison
Why We Run - Heimrich
Run Strong - Beck
Shite
Paula My Story So Far - Radcliffe
Interesting book reviews, MTR. I was at a talk by Bryant last night - a very interesting guy and club president for THH. It was more about journalism than running though.
On converting from shorter to longer races, I can plug in my August 10km time of 31:52 to give 2:29:33, which I beat by around 40s in October. Inbetween I ran 14:59 for 5km, which is more in line with 31:08 (given my knack for breaking 'barriers' I'd prefer to think 30:59) and 2:26 (or 2:25:59)
Now at the time of running 14:59, there's no chance I could have run 2:28 (let alone 2:26) for the marathon; I hadn't put in the specific marathon training required to do so.
Similarly at the time I ran 2:28 for the marathon, I was a different beast to the runner who broke 15 for 5km... I'd have probably been >20s slower had it been the Amsterdam 5km.
In the 7 weeks between the 5km and marathon, the ~5 weeks of hard training was very specific in addressing the reasons why I couldn't have run a good marathon on the 5km PB day.
It may surprise some that it only included 3 'long' runs - 2 x ~22 and one of 21. As I knew that I could go out and run 22M (or beyond) on any given day, I was looking to get as much out of each one as possible - they were in the format of i) slow with faster finish, ii) medium with fartlek, including some very quick surges, iii) running a 20M race at a 'solid but comfortable' effort.
The real improvements to move me from a MD runner to marathoner came from midweek long-ish tempo runs either at (or at times, slightly faster than) target MP (up to 8M) and a second one at a slower pace (but longer efforts). There was also a HM attempt... my 5km time pointed to a ~69min possibility, but I suffered from 4M and ended up limping home in 76 (with heart rate indicating that was close to flat out HM effort - clearly something not right - I think hydration given the painfully long drive to get to the race thanks to road closures).
Come the marathon, I wasn't sure if the lack of long runs would make for a slow motion final 10km. It turned out to be my fastest ever marathon finish and most 'comfortable' (in terms of only battling against 'good' pain) marathon race so far. But yes, I did still leak 40s from 32km to the end.. but that's only 6s per mile and I was a bit tired.
Still taking forever to recover from it though! Though a short tempo run yesterday as part of a solid looking week was very promising.
Interesting BEJ. A lot of the specific stuff you've mentioned is what I've been considering/similar to what was mentioned on the darkside. How did you break down the midweeker? What kind of length efforts/recoveries, or did you go for just a straight run (e.g. 8m @ MP)?
I couldn't get into 'Feet in the Clouds' at all MtR. Just didn't do it for me. One of my clubmates and I done a long run in March (I think) where we done 10m easy, then 1m fast (target MP or quicker), 1m easy x 5. I'd wanted to do the last 5m @ target pace, but he suggested this, so I thought I'd give it a crack. Very nice workout and one I will be using again.
R33 - New Year's Eve one fine in my book, the Gin Pit Double - too close for my liking if you are not doing big mileage.
TT - they were all straight runs. Excluding the 20M 'race', my longest was 10M with about 2M normal running either side.
I did a little MP during tract training - really just to fill a slot when I wanted a 'medium' workout. I did break it into chunks, thinking it was something I could build upon (eg get to 4 x 5km) but it never really got beyond 3 x 2M (with near 2M recoveries at normal pace).
Feet in the Clouds is a good read - but by no means perfect. It reads like an extensively redrafted book. I suspect he wrote a ver different 1st draft, then at the suggestion of his editor/publisher he put in the slightly artificial calendar format. At points it gets a bit confusing as he adds more and more stories about famous fell-runners. Having said all that - it makes it into my Excellent category as I found it inspiring. I love the Lakes and used to go walking there and this book made me want to go an run in the mountains.
Born to Run is similar. A flawed read, and most people seem to focus on the barefoot running or the Tarahumara and their runnin feats. But what got to me was the underlying message that running should/could be just part of a way of life and that connecting with nature via a local diet (inclduing copious amounts of beer) was a part of that.
From Last to First is simply excellent. Spedding's not the greatest writer, but he tells a good story, and he really brings home the ups and downs of the running life in a way that Paula's (presumably ghst-written) book doesn't. He talks about how he has to work on everything to make it happen, she just moans about her injuries.
Afternoon all.
Man flu had me sidelined on Monday and Tuesday but I felt sufficiently recovered to attempt a kill or cure 9 miler last night. Hasn't totally cured me, but I feel a heck of a lot better. Not really looking forward to a run this evening, though; the wind chill is viscious today so I think it could be a tights, long sleeve top, gloves and hat jobbie. Maybe even a windproof jacket!
Agree with Matt's reading list (insofar as I've read the books in question). I loved Feet in the Clouds; sometimes I wasn't really in the mood for the biographies, but reading about the author's battle with the BGR was awe-inspiring. And I do like the biography section in Noakes; the hard-core science bit is an excellent cure for insomnia...
Agreed on Feet In The Clouds, and on Joolska's reflections on Lore of Running. I kind of liked Barefoot Runner, but I don't like his tendency to fictionalise episodes where he can't possibly know what people did or said. I loved "What I Talk About When I Talk About Running", although I'm a big Murakami fan generally.
Others:
The First Four Minutes, Roger Bannister; a very interesting insight into the man as well as his remarkable achievement; what's really striking is what he achieved with very specific, targeted training. Written in a style which now seems quite dated, but that's part of the charm.
The Running Man (much better US title "This Voice In My Heart") by Gilbert Tuhabonye. A startling account of his life and then escape from genocidal atrocities in Burundi.
Hail Hail
Now I can see what all the fuss about Brian was about - nice little session.
Missed the conversion chat - 10k to mara is $hit cos my (well out of date) 10k time is not currently trained for. HM to mara is out by only 15secs. For that reason, I quite like McMillan.
MtR - Karnazes is probably in the same category as St Paula. Not that I've read hers's but his is like something she produces at a marathon pitstop. I have a signed copy of Noakes LoR, he's a nice guy, but jeez what a mountain.
Yesterday's Crabbos suggest a 2.36 marathon conversion, so I'm falling out of favour with that session. Completely unrealistic.
F'king cold up here - snow for Sat.
I think of Feet in the Clouds as a great read if you like the subject, but probably badly written. Definitely comes under inspiring, and works well on any lack of mojo.
Did you do another session during the specific phase BEJ, or was it just the midweek tempo and the long run with effort? 4 x 5k is one of the ones I'm considering for my midweeker in specific phase, whilst playing with the recovery side of it a bit.
I took the same out of Born to Run MtR.
Tmap - I liked that one too.
Drifter - I think you've hit the nail on the head with Feet in the Clouds for me - I just couldn't take to the writing style.
I've got a few other ones which haven't been mentioned. Sonia O'Sullivan's is a good read (though obviously I could be biased), and one by a local guy, Stan Eldon, called 'Life on the Run' is very informative. Stan was a UK/England international in the late 50s/early 60s - won the World xc precursor, held UK (and World IIRC) records over 3m and 6m, and is a good bloke. He was also responsible for founding the Reading HM. I've had a chat with him a few times and he has some interesting training ideas. Simple, but interesting.
RB: I'd accept a downgrading of Karnazes to Poor - he is self-aggrandizing and pompous , and the book is very badly written. He describes the whole ultra running scene as if he invented it. But I read it when I'd just started running, and even taking all the crap into account, there is something inspiring about how it describes running through the night on ultras.
I really struggle to find anything good to say about Paula's book. But if pushed, I'd say that the sections about running the world cross country were bearable.
I have read the Bannister book as well (or most of it in Borders/Starbucks one day, but I didn't buy it). It's got some good stuff in there, but he is very much a product of his era, and I found that hard to relate to.
Murakami I didn't like - but it did get me to read some of his fiction, and that makes it worth it I suppose.
Working from home today and I'm prevaricating. It's cold outside and I'm supposed to get a session of sorts done. Time to HTFU and lace up the trainers.
x-post: Austerity Olympics is excellent. I got it for a well-targeted secret Santa present at work last year. Loads of good stuff in there about all sorts of sports. I liked the idea that the organisers assumed all the cyclists would just ride their bikes across London to the velodrome for the cycling so didn't lay on any transport - then the athletes tried to get on the buses with their bikes.