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HADD Training Method
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But I've trawled through the handbook and found that this is not considered as assistance:-
Page 61 RULE 144
d) Heart rate or speed distance monitors or stride sensors or similar
devices carried or worn personally by athletes during an event,
provided that such device cannot be used to communicate with any
other person.
An earlier part says that mobile phones are considered as assistance.
I don't think wearing an HRM is an unfair advantage or assistance at all. It all comes down to the training. Then there are watches with foot strike monitoring too.
Maybe they allow HRM's to avoid (if possible) a runner having an incident (heart attack). I know someone that has had a heart problem, he's run a lot of marathons and has been give the all clear to continue but has to keep his HR down below a certain level.
Anyway, I'm all wired up myself... and I went out for my first little taster tonight. I did go out on a full stomach (15 minutes after I put my knife and fork down). 53 minute run. Including about 15 minutes getting settled then "mile time"/"Avg HR" were: 11.14/120 11.37/122 11.43/121. The first mile was with the breeze, and the last two were back into it, I think expaining most of the pace difference.
I'm working to the idea that HR max is 175. I ought to do a test... the most I've seen in the last year is 173... but I've rarely really looked to maximise HR. So 70% of 175 would be 123bpm.
I knew it was supposed to be slow... but I expected to be sub-eleven!
I have to wait a minimum of two hours after eating before I run, 15 mins is impressive.
Congratulations on your first Hadd run
I can run quite soon after eating too, although I normally run early in the morning before breakfast. I do find if I eat before I run my HR is a little higher.
You will very soon be sub 11 m/m
Are you planning to do a Hadd test soon?
I think I'll do a Hadd test tomorrow, weather is quite settled at the moment and I've just checked the forecast and tomorrow morning should be 8mph winds which should be OK. I'm still recovering from injury so might just do the lower heartrates, I'll see how it goes
Due to this, I only managed 24.45 miles in 5 Days. No further stats are available until Sunday evening, although my pace was under 11 mins due to two club runs on Tuesday and Wednesday. Loving my new Brooks Ravenna 8's that have been broken in this week, much better than the 7's, and more like the 6's.
A pretty robust stomach is one good thing I was born with. (Almost) never a problem, no matter what I do. But logically, it's going to do something to increase my heart rate, I expect.
You're probably right about HRmax. I really will have to do a test sometime but I'm happy to guess in the mid to upper 170s.
Martyn... same shoes as me. I found that my last set of Ravennas collapsed under the ball of one of my feet after moderate milage. As had one of my previous pairs. I tried to find an alternative brand a few weeks ago, but with 4 weeks to marathon, I decided to stick - and so far so good.
I have an older pair of Ravennas which I use for training and like very much, so good to know the 8's are worth having although I won't need any shoes for quite a while now. I'm an anorak when it comes to shoes and have a range for training and a spreadsheet to record their mileage. After 15 years of racing in GTS Adrenalines I am now going to change my race shoes to Saucony Guides, however, haven't actually run a marathon in them yet, so we'll see.
NorthEnder - sorry I forgot you were only a couple of weeks post marathon. I would suggest you do a Hadd test when you feel you have recovered and the bounce is back in your legs.
I hate running in cold weather and have often DNS'd a race if the temperature is less than 10 degrees.
Incidentally my best ever Hadd stats were done in a test in humid conditions and 16 degrees. Of course with the shorter distances such as a Hadd test I guess unlikely to overheat.
If ever I have to go out on a run shortly after eating, I usually feel terrible. I feel full and heavy and I usually develop a side stich. I like to wait at least 1.5 hours after eating for no effects.
Shades, that's too bad. You are up in the cold and windy hills of Devon, aren't you?
My weekly stats.
52.5 miles
In 7hrs 33 minutes.
Including a shortish long run of 13.5mi in just under 2 hours.
And a subLT 3x3 miles (3 minute jogs) @ 159bpm / 82%. Averaging 7:07/m. With 2.5mi warm up with strides; 1.5mi cool down. Got this one spot on throughout and faster and more comfortable than the previous (3) runs at this intensity.
Good luck, all!
Good planning Shades so that you know when you go over 500 miles for each pair of runners that you use!
Surprising that Frost is still about in mid April!
Good work Sol2.
My full stats were 24.46 miles, @10:46 due to a few quicker club runs with a HR of 139 (72%) and just 4 hours, 23 mins due to shunting the LSR to Monday's.
My second Hadd run was OKish but not greatly effective. My daughter came out with me, which held me back on speed and limited to 3 miles. Not analysed it, but it looked like 12 minute miling and not much over 60%... but I definitely wouldn't change that. I really wish she'd come out more!
Enjoy the rest of your taper and good luck.
I'm very jealous.
My daughter used to come out running, I enjoyed that, but now she's gotten lazy. Teenagers!
Dr Dan, good 10 miler! Now, enjoy the rest of the taper. And, if you don't pop in again before the race, good luck!
I feel like I'm starting the Hadd process this week. Last week was just playing. So, 5 mile runs yesterday and today. Yesterday without a watch... today with.
Lovely conditions and I did find it very relaxing going at that pace. I could get used to it!
I've a run from work, with option to go through some lumpy fields (hoof holes in dried mud)... and dancing over that tricky terrain really makes a big difference to HR. Had to go very slow. But whenever I do that route, I'll always have a very flat closing mile on pavements, and it will always be the final mile of a 4 or 5 mile route so should make a good benchmark as I progress. Today, that mile took 10:40 at 121bpm (69%) so let's see how we go from here.
That's 4 minutes slower than 5K pace but I shall not be speeding up because that pace does feel right. Hopefully I'll be at 9:40 before TOO long.
Your hoof holed lumpy fields would indeed put HR up, hopefully we'll get some rain soon and it'll be easier terrain for you.
There are other things that put my HR up too, if I come across a cyclist cycling on the pavement I usually shout at them to get off, that puts my HR up. And twice in the last few weeks I've nearly been knocked over by a car, that really does put my HR up
I'm not sure I improved by a minute a mile because of two short runs! That first run last week was through (less lumpy) fields - so I'll take the 10:40 as a good benchmark... and do a Hadd test either this weekend or next.
There is also a skill in using the HRM and we all become better at keeping our HR's down. With hills I allow my HR to drop as I approach a hill so I can run the hill within desired HR range, although that's not always possible in Devon.
How has everyone got on this week?
I have had my usual taper madness as I seem to do before most races, this time with both achilles causing me some discomfort, not helped by three days of lifting and walking a lot in a different job role. Thankfully my run todays went well with my niggles now more settled.
Weekly Stats
27.57 miles over four days with a day on, day off strategy helping things settle down. My main lsr was 15.50 miles on Monday.
Average pace per mile of 11:53
Average heart rate of 127 (66%) which gives a reason for the slower average pace than of late.
Taking 5 hours 27 mins and 49 mins
Roll on Bank Holiday Monday! I will be aiming for between 4:20 and 4:30, fingers crossed.
Anyway... a Hadd test for you to get your teeth into - if any of you experienced people can make anything of this. First of all, my weekly total over 4 runs was exactly 30 miles (by chance!) - so happy to have felt so comfortably with that on the 3rd week post marathon. I didn't run Friday or Saturday, so well rested for a Hadd test today, using a 0.5m loop round a flat park, paved for all but about 100m cutting across the grassy sports pitch.
I didn't find time to read instructions, so went off what I remembered from reading the hadd document... and I chose the non-round number of 118 as my base figure - I've been working 123 as my 70% figure, and I felt 120 was a bit too close to that... but I didn't want to go too low as I wanted my last pace to be as close to 160 as I could, going from my not-properly-tested HR max of 175.
However, I think I need to test that HR max properly. For me, I've seen 173 in some Vo2 work just over a year ago, and I added 3 to that as my HR max estimate during the last year. But not seen above 172 since, so, a year on, I deducted 1 beat for 175 max. But today, the 5th HR band clearly wasn't challenging enough, and I did an additional batch at 168 - during which I saw 172 on my watch without going absolutely all out... and I'd got over 11.5 miles in my legs by then also.
This was my first attempt at this and hitting the required heart rates was a bit tricky. Amazingly, my average for every single 1.5m was exactly on target - but on every lap, I briefly saw HR of 3 beats up and lower figures too. The stats show I must have hit 4+ beats up at some stage on every section but I really think that must have been for a short time. So... what do you make of this.
1st section.. HR avg=118 HR max 123, avg pace (m/m) 11.18, Easy.
128avg/133max pace 9:57, More comfortable. Easy.
138avg, 142max, 8:46, Starting to "run". Easy
148avg, 152 max 8:14, Still steady breathing.
158avg, 162 max, 7.31, Steady breathing but second half was breathing faster
168avg 172max 6:59 Hard but comfortably so. Fast breathing and definitely moving towards some sort of limitation. Happy to finish but not dead on the floor!
I guess I need to train and repeat in 6 weeks... but if anyone gleans anything from this, I'll be grateful for discussion. Have a good week.
Were you a ballot reject from VLM? I enjoyed watching it on telly too.
NorthEnder - well that Hadd test is certainly a revelation. I agree you need to test that MHR as the base figure you're using is clearly wrong, but at least your estimate was cautious. If you think at 168 you could have kept that up for roughly an hour then that's about your lactate threshold. When you have your new MHR figure I would suggest that at the next Hadd test you drop the lower one at 118bpm as you'll probably have a >168 to do. Keep the other heartrates the same so you have comparable data to use.
If for the next 6 weeks all of your training is done as near 70% as possible then at your next Hadd test you should see little change in the higher heartrates but improvement at the lower heartrates.
My last Hadd test was Dec 2016, was too windy or icy or cold when I was due to do my next ones in 2017. Previous test to Dec was April 2016 and this was 10 days after I ran a season's best marathon of 4:47. The time between April and December I was off running marathons so not a lot of Hadd training until I started again at the beginning of November 2016.
So I don't think I've lost that much fitness as I originally thought but definitely not as fit as I was 4 or 5 weeks ago. I have a marathon on Saturday, not sure how my injury will react, we'll see.
Northender, well done on the test. Remarkable that you hit each nail on the head perfectly! Quite surprising, too,
I think, that there's such a large differential between the lowest and highest intensities. Which will, in the coming months, decrease. Another point I see there is that you felt 168 was 'hard, but comfortably so.' This should definitely not be the case a few beats away from HRmax. I wonder if you could try a 178 next time...! I wouldn't drop the lower one, as it's useful as a warm up and at comparing your lower-intensity training runs. I do it too, and run 6 intensities in my test.
Shades, impressive improvements over the last year. Pity, though, that you couldn't complete the test. Would've been interesting. Still, it's best to look after yourself and get rid of that injury.
My stats for the week.
55 miles
7 hrs 49 minutes
6 training runs
Including a subLT - 2x4 mi @ 82%
and long run of 16 mi @ 68%.
I was very pleased to notice an average 20 sec/m increase in 70% pace this week. Another successful week of training gearing up to the Manchester half marathon in 5 weeks. I am optimistic that I might crack 90 minutes there!
Interesting to see your Hadd progression. I know you've said you're fitness has dropped a bit.. but I see a 30-40s per mile improvement between last April and December. How did that translate into race performance?
Thanks for the advice from you and from Sol too. To be clearer, that 168bpm segment was not so comfortable as to be sustainable for too much - by "comfortable", I meant that I had no problem achieving it. It felt like LT was pretty close to the 158 segment. I do look back 3 months where I completed a flat 8 mile race in 55:42 (pace=6:58). So that should suggest that LT was at 7 min pace... but HR average was round 150 and I suspect LT then and now were are pretty similar.
All a bit confusing... but that weird heart-rate response that I described a couple of weeks back doesn't help with understanding. (e.g. that 8m race was run with miles 1-7 all at 7:0x then a faster last mile giving HR 152, 154, 151, 149, 149, 147, 147, 148). I don't know where I'm at really, and Hadding is, to some extent, an attempt to reboot.
NorthEnder - It hasn't, I did my last marathon at the end of October and started Hadd beginning of November and the improvement came from that period of beginning of November to the Hadd test in December, so 6 weeks all at base training.
This year I've only raced a 20 miler with a decent but nothing special result. But the hilly half marathon I did the following week was a good result for me but training since has been curtailed since then by my injury.
You would have a much better idea of your LT threshold than we would as without getting it tested it has to be 'felt' by the runner.
Your heartrate in a race is certainly a phenomenon, pity Hadd himself is no longer with us so we can't ask the question of him.
Dr Dan - how did London go?