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The Middle Ground

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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Quick pop in whilst I have a pre dinner beer. Managed to train pretty well here. 6m easy Monday, Tuesday and Thursday and 10 x 0.5m session on Wednesday afternoon which was hard work in holiday mode. 

    This morning was 30 min easy then 6 x 3 min at mp off 3 min easy then 25 easy so 12m I total. I wasn't hugely happy when my wife made me get up at 8am to do it after a few drinks last night, but it was under 20c for most of the run so I was grateful to have got it done when done, particularly as it was warm and sunny all day. Paces were decent for reps as well. 

    6m easy tomorrow then home Sunday. Ready to pick things up properly then. 
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited February 2022
    All sounds good, DT!
    Perfect temperatures by the sound of things.
    I'm sure that you are missing the weather back home!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes on the whole it's been decent running conditions. I wanted to get some warmer runs in just to get that boost of a significant temp drop when home. 
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    Hope all is going well?

    No running so far this week - work and other life stuff have got in the way. Annoyingly, I have spent so much time just waiting around for various things when I could have run, but I had no way of knowing that ahead of time.

    I've just had a deep tissue massage. In general, much less excruciating than the last one, although my groin muscles were incredibly tender, especially near the knee joint. 

    Conditions for Sunday are continuing to improve. The slight snag is that I've discovered there is a pretty big hill 2 miles in that will require a pacing strategy - I should get something back on the descent though.
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited March 2022
    A little frustrating, Muss, but you won't lose any fitness! Could be a blessing!

    Better the hill two miles in than two to go! 

    Managed just over 100 miles in February and reflected on walking with a stick this time last year! Grateful I am largely back to it, although not where I was in January 2021.

    MRI and MRA scans tomorrow morning. Results in two weeks.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2022
    Muss, if you can get a couple of short runs and some strides in tomorrow and Friday or Saturday  then the circumstances will probably work in your favour for Sunday. 

    Alehouse, yes, sometimes we have to look backwards to realise the progress. 

    Best of luck tomorrow.  

    I've just done similar following 8 x 1k off 1 min. Felt a bit disappointed with rep paces, all around 3.40. Looked back on strava at previous 1k rep sessions and only about 5s per rep off similar sessions much closer to London and Dorney last year but for higher hr. Factoring in that's my first real decent interval session post injury, I'm 3 days back off holiday (carrying a few kg extra) and I'm currently dealing with a cold and a throat that feels like it's been filled with gravel, i'll take that 10 weeks out. 

    8m easy yesterday and 5m Monday. Giving spin a miss whilst unwell so I'm not overdoing it and prioritising the running. 
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    Eastbourne Half 2022

    This is a fairly low key race, they had up to 2000 spaces but only just over 600 runners entered. The main draw for this one was to do a race with my dad, and this is a pretty local one for him. 

    Really didn't fancy this much on the drive down - was feeling very aware of how tired I was and the forecast had worsened from 12mph winds to 17mph with 25mph gusts. Parked up easily enough, a couple of council car parks had been designated race car parks and vouchers were given out so parking was free which was a nice touch. Sat in the car for over half an hour as it was too cold to get the warm up in early and stay warm. Jogged over to start area and tried to work out where to put myself. All the pacers were very close to the front which wasn't particularly helpful!

    The course is almost all along the seafront. First we head out southwest along the coastal road for about 3km, loop around, and then run back along the seafront path for the majority of the race. A surprisingly big loop around the harbour before running southwest once more along the seafront path, taking you past runners coming the other way. Back onto the road, a weird bit where we're guided through a subway that goes underneath a closed road, and then into a small park for the finish on grass.

    From the gun, I'm a little cautious and choose not to go off with the sub 1:30 pacers. Looking at the watch, we're doing 4:05 min/Kms, so I drop back a little and let them go 20/30m ahead. First km goes in 4:09, slightly faster than the plan, but we have a tailwind. Next km is 4:05, the pacers seem to be trying to bank time. They've got a good Kipchoge breaking 2 style formation going, and considering we're going to have a headwind for most of the race, I decide to bridge the gap, so the next km is faster in 3:59. Now we're at the climb, which is 100m over the next 3km. We go through the first 5km in 20:48, and the group is still going strong.

    But the last bit of climbing is tough, and suddenly it's just me and the pacers. That km was 4:56. Onto the descent, and after an initial faster burst, we slow to allow the group to reform. It's a switchback style road, and one some of the twists we get a little preview of what the wind from the north east is going to feel like. More descending, and now onto the sea front. No shelter from the wind at all, and it feels like it's a full on headwind. I try to be selfish and use the rest of the group for cover, but it doesn't feel like it's doing much! There's probably 5/6 of us apart from the two pacers, and we're all looking to get some shelter from the bigger guy who is pacing.

    10km in 42:24, so the second 5km is 21:36, but that has that 4:56 uphill km in it, so pretty much the same effort level. Despite the wind, feeling suspiciously comfortable at this point! At 12km, I decide to start bridging a 50m gap to a group of three ahead of the pace group, buoyed by getting a glimpse of the finish as we run past. Once I get there, I realise two of them are falling off the back, so straight past them, and me and the other guy in a white singlet start working together. Initially, we're trying to get behind one another to get out of the wind, but eventually we end up side by side. 21:05 for the third 5km. 

    Now the two of us catch another guy left us behind on the way up the big hill. From here it gets a bit messy, I think each of us started to pull away from the others - not because we put in a surge but because the others dropped off. Lots of corners and hairpins on this loop round the harbour. I put in a 4:27 km and fear that I'm slowing to the finish. The next one is 4:12, so all good. Having made a bit of a gap between me and the others, white singlet comes past and there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm just trying not to let him increase the distance too much. In theory we should be getting a tailwind now but it doesn't feel any easier. 21:04 for the fourth 5km thanks to a 4:02 km that felt very disjointed and slow!

    The rest is a bit of a blur, but coming on to the grass finishing funnel and seeing the clock was a good moment.

    Over the line and time to find a good place to lie down!

    1:29:32 chip time - delighted with that given the course and conditions. Very happy with the execution also. I wondered whether I would pay for that move away from the pacers, but I'm happy I did as they finished a couple of minutes later.

    I thought I'd got away with it yesterday as I wasn't feeling too sore, but today quads, hamstrings and glutes are all hit with bad DOMS. Abs and hip flexors also feeling it.
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Great report and a well executed race, Muss! And an excellent build up over the last few months!  Well done! And what's next?

     Just under 42k last week; an easy hour this morning. Well, easy in theory!


    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    Thanks alehouse. How's the neck, any news/change? 

    Two half marathons in the diary so far - Hackney Half in May and the Big Half in September. In good conditions and on a flat course I'd like to get closer to 1:27, or maybe even 1:26. I'd also like to bring down my 5k time to around 18:30 or lower.

    The next month might be a difficult one for training though as lots is going on.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, congrats, sounds like it all fell into place. I definitely think those times are on for you later this year. 

    I take it no marathon ambitions for now? 

    Alehouse, any scan results? 

    I continued to feel crap last week and I'd say today is the first day o don't just want to lie on the sofa. That said I got on with it last week with a decent tempo Friday of 2 x 2.5m at tempo off 1m low tempo. Low tempo was 6.30mm and others around 6 10-6.15, coming in for 6.16 average. Happy enough with that as my first continuous tempo since early January and straight off hols and feeling poorly. 

    Followed with 16m Sunday which again wiped me out. 

    Feel much more up for it today so had 8m easy. Easy pace v hr is coming into line well. 3 x 2m tomorrow. 

    I've been so ill I've not touched a drop of alcohol in 10 or 11 days. May well remedy that tomorrow night with a beer or two. 
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    DT - Sounds like you're going extremely well despite a tricky few weeks! Did you enjoy Lanzarote?

    No mara this year as I don't fancy an autumn mara again, so will wait for next spring. I'll enter the ballot for London and maybe enter Manchester if I don't get a spot. I'm actually pretty excited about another mara, and I did briefly consider entering one for this spring before deciding it was too last minute. But at the moment I'm pretty happy with keeping long runs at 15 miles, it seems a sustainable sweet spot for building fitness without too much impact on the rest of my life.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, yes 15m is a good maintenance point. If you do then decide to run a mara the biggest runs aren't that big a step up. 

    Unless you are a very experienced marathoner and relatively high mileage guy, short notice marathons are rarely a good idea. Those that do best in them are those that were best prepared. 

    Lanzarote was enjoyable, 6 days of blue sky and one Cloudy and wet in the middle. 

    Just done my biggest comeback session yet of 3 x 2m off 1 min. I always struggle with 2m reps and I think it is because I try to run them at 1m rep pace. Also I usually do them with 2 min recovery so 1 min was added brutality, particularly with a lot of wind about. 

    Anyway, blocks came I'm  11.52, 11.57 and 11.53 so reasonably consistent. It hurt quite a bit though. I always dread my early week tempo session as it's always miles out of my comfort zone. 

    Having a block now though of reduced mileage but 3 sessions a week. So my usual 2 then my long run each week is incorporating decent blocks at mara pace. I'm guessing Lewis feels I have the miles in my legs from previous campaigns but quickest way back to a decent mara is a bit more high end aerobic work. 
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    I agree with you DT re 15 miles being a good platform to build from when the need arises. I also agree that you have lots of long runs in your legs from previous campaigns and long reps will be the way to go. I have probably said before but on my 40th birthday one of the very experienced runners at my club said one long run of 18-20 every two or three weeks will suffice for vets plus work hard on speed: as one gets older stamina largely remains and speed disappears, so work on the latter was the message.

    Have you decided the plan for Manchester, DT

    Did your dad do Eastbourne as well, Muss? And it sounds like a good time for a cut back week or two for you!

    Nothing to report re latest scans: get the results on St Patrick's Day. Still getting headaches and sharp pains from time to time in the back of my head. Would like to push a few sessions quite hard but am resisting the urge to do much in that way until after the results. Ticking over at around 40k a week: six of the last seven have been over 40 with the other being 39! Aiming for consistency and hope to gradually make that progressive in terms of speed and/or distance. 

    Grim run today: hard work in the wind. Character building. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Most suggest as you push through the vet cats you should avoid anything too hard and nasty to avoid injury. However I find my legs tend to feel pretty good after sessions once I'm I the rhythm. 

    I have now lined my sessions up to land on a Wednesday and Friday as they are my work from home days and I can do a lot more at home to assist recovery then if I have to spend the afternoon at my desk. 

    I am still waiting Lewis to stipulate the detail, though I think that's part of why he is making the long runs Inc blocks of mara pace more than I would normally. This week it's 18 with 2 x 4m then it's 20 with 2 x 5m.

    My suggestion, as previously posted I think, was 9m easy then 3 x 5m at mp off 1m. 
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    Alehouse - yes, he managed 2:04. He had been hoping for sub 2, but hadn't trained all that much for this one. He is more of a cyclist, and used to be extremely handy on the bike, (and still would leave me for dead!) but runs and occasionally dabbles in triathlon. He placed fairly highly in the v60-69 category, and moves up to V70 next year.

    7.5km today, first run since Sunday. Still quite sore and stiff while running, but legs have definitely eased up post run. Will just do what I feel like this week, and reverse taper next week.


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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Well done to your dad, Muss! A year older than I am! Don't think I will do another half so all credit to him!

    DT: I was wondering if you had decided to race Manchester, particularly if the weather is right.

    About 45 minutes here today, including 2 X 3 minutes at a quicker pace. I am sure the wind was against for the whole 45. Trying to throw in the odd quicker section without going full out.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, that's decent going on your dad's part.

    Alehouse, it could present quite a dilemma come the time, my concern is I haven't done the work just yet. Last weeks 16 was my longest run this year and I've 18 this Sunday and 20 the following. I think I could very easily come undone in the latter stages of a raced mara. 
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    Alehouse, my dad doesn't run anything like the weekly volume you are, so never say never! 
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Decent week, felt like my first week of full on training. 10k Friday at my standard 160bpm effort came out 6.20mm for 157bpm. A lot of energy expended running into the wind in seemingly most directions. 

    Big one today, 8m easy then 2 x 4m at mp off 1m easy then 1m cd. Again, the wind illogically seemed to be battering me from many directions. Pleasingly both sets came out at 6.23mm average with the last block having fairly metronomic miles. 

    Looking forward to having a crack at similar but bigger versions of these in the much calmer forecast next week. 

    Managed to bag a pair of the new streakfly on Friday. A lovely feel to the fit and weight, though I'm not sure they'll be faster over shorter distances than what I have. Will give them a spin in Tuesdays 6 x 1m session. 
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    DT - so it seems you are still in similar or maybe even better shape than the lead up to London?

    3 runs last week for me. 2 very slow 7-8km efforts and one 16km which felt very hard work, but came out at a pace which made me feel I should have been able to relax more. I am feeling more recovered today, but lots going on at work, and we currently have no kitchen or bathroom at home which is making life difficult!

    Hoping to get 5 runs in this week, and am thinking I'd like to experiment with 6 runs in a week at some point soon. 


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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2022
    Muss, sounds a bit chaotic at home. It shouldn't take too much out of you to add in say 5k at recovery effort. 

    I'm still not sure, Muss. I certainly lack the confidence and belief that I can be having not done the hard grind. Problem is, in my mind there are all sorts of runs I'm doing now which back in September were faster and lower hr, however when I look back on strava they really weren't. I think Fridays 8m tempo in good conditions will give me a decent idea. 

    5m recovery yesterday and 10m today. 
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    All sounds good, DT!

    I don't fancy being without both kitchen and bathroom at the same time, Muss!

    Saw the neurologist yesterday: MRI and MRA scans were clear, which is good news; the bad news is I still have no idea why I have had this headache for months! 

    Ticking over here still and did 3 x 3 minutes off 2 on Wednesday. Just. 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Alehouse, that is often the problem with news like that. It's great in that it rules out anything nasty but leaves you just knowing what you don't have. 

    Will you be on course at all in Manchester. Looking at route I see it goes out through Sale and Altrincham which I hadn't realised. 

    6 x 1m off 1 min wednesday. All came in low to mid 5.50s. 5m recovery yesterday then 10.5m today with 8m at 160bpm effort.

    Came in 6.16mm for 162bpm. First 4m averaged 6.21mm then last 4 around 6.11mm. 
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    I usually watch from the Sale area, or stand on a corner wearing a yellow bib, although haven't been asked yet. 
    I would say Wednesday and today's session were pretty decent! 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2022
    Looking back, end of December I did exactly same 8m loop at same pace and hr, though it was cooler then as well so it's certainly a reasonable confidence boost with 5 big weeks to come. 

    I suspect Lewis will have me on a 1 week taper for mk instead of 10-14 days, given I haven't had the massive block like I did during my last two cycles. 

    I've got a long leg at the Rd relays next weekend so that'll be a good tester as well. Funny, 4 years ago no one really cared if I ran them, 2-3 years ago I was asked a bit but the 11th to 12th runner on the sheet nowhere near a long leg.  Now suddenly when I have not responded to the generic e mail the team captain is messaging me asking me why I haven't responded and if I can run and putting me on a long leg. 
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    edited March 2022
    I presume that is Sutton Coldfield, DT. Have you run the long leg there before? 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Yes Sutton Park. 

    Only ever done short legs. No idea how the long leg works. 
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    DT, I was just about to ask about tapers. I know you are treating Manchester as a session, but will you taper at all? 

    Alehouse, have you read Healing Back Pain by John E Sarno? I have a few friends that have had mystery back pains and they swear that book helped them a lot - might be worth a shot. 

    The bathroom is almost done now, but won't be able to shower at home till Monday at the earliest. That will be a game changer. Both of us are keen cooks, so we are missing the kitchen, but being without the bathroom has been much more tricky!

    4 days in a row of runs between 7.5 and 10km - I feel more in the swing of things again. I am having trouble keeping to a genuine easy effort - finding it too easy to drift into something more like steady, and wondering why HR is on the high side. Then I finish the run and see the average pace, and wonder why I wasn't able to slow down. I imagine that will come out in the wash as I add some volume back in.
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    DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    We had our bathroom and ensuite done last April and they wanted to do them simultaneously but with the gym closed we declined as couldn't be doing a week of washing in a sink. 

    The week before Manchester is slightly complicated in that my long run ftom the Sunday has been pushed to Monday as I'm racing on the Saturday. That shifts the set up of the week around generally, however I still have my usual Wednesday session in (10 x 1k that week) then 8m Thursday but then only a 3m tempo on the Friday. I usually have a rest day Saturday anyway, though sometimes like tomorrow where junior footy allows I'll do spin first thing. So I wouldn't say it's a taper as such but a reduction on the Friday tempo. 

    20m this Sunday with 2 x 5m at mp. Still need to speak to Lewis re Manchester plan, though I've set my position out to him. 
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    alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    DT: the long leg at Sutton Park goes out and back for a good mile each way from the Jubilee Stone which is where the short leg turns off (sharp right) leading back past Keeper's Pool. That section is quite exposed, with a slight down hill on the way out and always seems a long drag on the way back, apparently: I have never done the long leg but have run the course when supporting. Once you get back to the Jubilee Stone it is the same course as the short, and there is that nice long downhill past the pool to relax on. 

    Anyway, parkrun report! Last minute decision to run. 2k or so warm up then started quite well back so hit quite a lot of traffic in a big field, probably 500+. Quick course but a little breezy but bright sunshine and around 10 degrees. Running in shorts still a shock! Long sleeves plus gloves! 
    First km 5:04, then progressive: 4:57, 4:52, 4:45, 4:44 for 24:13 unofficially. Have to be pleased with that as wasn't flat out. Consistent training seems to be helping!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
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