Sub 3h15

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  • JD3, good advice from Birch, TR and others. Back off a bit, have a fee days off and then run to feel (but not too quick!) for a while. 4.5kg to lose in a session is a lot (i also lose a lot on a long run) are you drinking on the run? Dehydration won't help your perception of effort in the heat.



    Menna, I have a startrac bike, very solid and I likes it I do.



    MsE, get changed you tramp!
  • JD3 - sounds like a couple of days off should do you good; no point in slavishly following a plan if you end up over-training and on the bench. I think the relevant thread quote is "listen to your body". Talking of which, I decided to have a rest today instead of a very short recovery run.
    Birch - good to hear you've been out for a run with no pain at the time; hopefully you've reached a turning point.
    MsE - you wear your running gear all day?! I confess that I sometimes wear the same top for 2 or 3 runs (as long as I'm out on my own!) and only put it out for washing after a sweaty session image
    Speedy - I see you did rather a good Magic Mile; well done.

  • Birch, thanks for the feedback. I guess the general approach therefore has to be to set aside a period of maybe up to 2 years and just concentrate on the marathon for that period. My initial plan was VLM 2012 (done, 2:50:28), 2014 (hopeful 2:45) and 2016 (champs entry swan song based on 2014) but maybe I need to re-jig that to include a few more. My running legs are not so young: I have ran ever since I was 16 but only seriously from 16 to 28, about 10 years in the gym up to about 38 and then back to semi-serious running and back to full bore at the start of 2010 when I was 44.

    Just to get the figures accurate for mileage and times. I do a 16 week campaign with a 3 week taper.

    Stratford on Avon Marathon 2011
    Sunday May 8, 2:57:09.
    Jan 17 2011 to Apr 17, 13 weeks, 688 miles, 52.9 miles per week
    Apr 18 2011 to May 7, 3 weeks taper 81 miles.
    16 weeks, 796 miles including race, 49.8 per week.

    Virgin London Marathon 2012
    Sunday April 22, 2:50:28
    Jan 2 2012 to Apr 1, 13 weeks, 703 miles, 54.1 miles per week
    Apr 2 2012 to Apr 21, 3 weeks taper, 92 miles.
    16 weeks, 822 miles including race, 51.4 per week.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Minni I've entered the Redcar Half at the end of Sept. to get over my GNR blues. It looks pretty flat so it's my new focus. It'a tall order but the target will be sub 80 minutes.

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭

    MsE - "I never become bored taking off or putting on running gear as I only put it on in the morning and take it off at night.  I might pong a bit..." image  Keep the transatlantic posts coming  . . . .

    PMJ - a serious improvement in a year, so your goal certainly appears to be do-able, not just pie-in-the-sky. Maybe worthwhile gradually increasing mileage if legs can handle it, perhaps for the duration of the actual campaigns? The 10 years "leg rest" before returning in 2010 should mean you can handle it.  Be v. interesting following your efforts, anyway.

    Hi Solent R - I only hang around here 'cos no-one else will have me image - (I'm unlikely to see 3:15 again) , but seriously, this is the place for sound advice, toenail pics, fruit orientated headwear etc  . . .exciting times approaching too, with some Autumn mara attempts to be reported on

  • Birch: the Autumn marathon's then

  • Slotted in this weeks 22 LSR to this morning. Kept it constant at 7:30m/m. Fantastic weather for a run along the Thames, and ascending hills to get some great views. Now that is in the bag I have Sat/Sun as rest days. Can't remember a weekend this year when I haven't run. Told my wife to lock up the trainers!

    JD3 - there was a great interview on Marathon talk with McMillan. He talked a lot about flexibility (not the stretchy kind!) at this stage of a campaign, and being on a knife edge. It left an impression on me which I apply when following off the shelf training plans.

  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Great going AR- I'm planning 8 miles this PM, let's hope the weather holds.

    Then Parkrun in the morning- haven't done for as few weeks so well up for that.

  • Another great long run AR. Constant 7.30! Working on P&D principals of MP plus 10 and 20% you must be aiming for significant sub 3 now?



    Some advice please folks. In PD week 12 and tomorrow's run calls for a race tune up 9k to 15k. I don't plan to race tomorrow and I really don't like the idea of trying to run any form of race pace at this stage of the campaign! 70 miles last week and 65 total by end of this week. What are alternatives? I was thinking of a safe 9 or 10 mile aerobic run? Any thoughts from the guys in the know? PS - I blatantly refused to do the double 4 and 6 recovery run this week and just did 6 in the pm. Naughty boy!
  • What's this magic Mile thing? Is there a link or somefink?

  • Go on marathontalk.com KR. It's all on there.



    Birch, how's the knee feeling today?



    3 solid days banked 11 with 5x1200s at 5K pace on Wednesday, 15 progressive from 8:30 to 7:30mm last night, 10 miles steady today with hills at 8:05mm.



    Bike tomorrow to try out these fancy new clip in shoes and then the dreaded 18 with 12 at MP on Sunday - should give an indicator on what's doable come October.
  • SJ- I've got 18 with 14 at MP next week! What's the general consensus on these runs? I guess if you can hold your pace without killing yourself for 12 or 14 it's doable on th day? I've done 10 and 12 at MP at did ok.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    Birch - great post as usual. All the best with the appointment.

    Dylan Man - 10M in training is pretty much a hard TT for experienced runners, if you can do 12 then its about right. The better you are and the faster you can run a marathon you are running closer to the rivet and some of these folks cant run 10 at MP in training.

    PMJ - might be wise to try to up those miles then, maybe with doubles included. There have been some decent runners struggle to run 2:45 off big miles on the sub3 thread. You need to find 5 mins over 26.2, which is a big jump from MP towards HMP from where you are now and thats a big change of pace.

  • KR http://www.marathontalk.com/challenges/magic_mile.php

    TR I was thinking about doubles at lunchtime and agree they will have to be part of the regime. I run 6 times a week so 10, 15, 20 makes 45 miles and 3xrecovery days of 5 each for 60. If I double up on recovery with a 4 and a 5 then that adds 12 miles so puts me up to 72, and maybe even a tweak so recovery days are 4 and 6 for 75 miles.

    The 2:45 is half way between MP and HMP (my half is 79:34) but I reckon I have about  2 minutes of inefficiency in that 2:50 which could be recovered with sensible tactics and pacing so just 3 minutes or 12 seconds a mile, 3 seconds a lap ...

  • MsEMsE ✭✭✭

    I did it!  I did my first 16 miler in months today.  My Achilles has been rather swollen since starting on training for this marathon so I was a little worried.  It was quite grumbly for a few miles and definitely reacted to the hilly bits. But I survived. And I know to avoid hilliness for the sake of my Achilles.  Av pace 8:15m/m with a few slow ones at the start and mostly 7:50s in the middle.

    PMJ - your efficient approach to your targets is enviable. Thank goodness you have a head for figures.  I can just imagine the length of your posts if you were more of a poet than a statistician. image

    Off to do the school run now. In my pongy running kit... image

  • Apologies for the skim read but internet time is limited by training right now. 

    I did my magic mile last night on a track on top of a hill. 5.34.1, which gives me a WAVA of 76%. Sorry PMJ, bumped you down a spot! No taper for that either, 16 miles on Wednesday night, 10 with 3 x 1.75 mile intervals on Tuesday, 8 and yoga on Monday, 15 including the 10k PB on Sunday....In fact my last rest day was 26th August, between a 22m+ LSR and the 20 miler with 12 @ MP. Definitely no need to taper for B goal races. Having said that, I will be having a cut back week next week with the GNR on the end of it, front loading the week so I get a bit of rest in the 3 days before the race. 

    Best get to bed, I have 22 miles to run in the morning!

    Oh, Mse - I do that too on weekends if I'm running a double, but ONLY if I'm running a double. Otherwise I have a shower or bath like any normal, non-smelly person. image

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    PMJ - get CC to write you a schedule, that girl knows how to train for marathons. I just read that post above.

  • PMJ, I think that your reference to pacing is pertinent in your attempt on 2:45. If I remember correctly your previous (excellent) times at 26.2 were all quite front loaded with a "cling on to the end" mentality. I think part of your lead up to the big 2:45 effort should concentrate on getting even pacing (or even the recommended slight negative split) nailed. Your base speed has been there or thereabouts and you are assuming that the issue is endurance but maybe pacing is a bigger issue.



    Nice one Speedy!



    Excellent news MsE!! Always good to be back on the horse image Make sure you take it easy on your tweaky tendons for the next couple of days. Good job SF is renowned for being flat eh?
  • OO54OO54 ✭✭✭

    Congrats MSE that should give you a lot of confidence.

    Disaster for me I missed my run last night so now doubtful for 40 this week. I'll do 4 before the parkrun this morning then hope for the dest tomorrow.  

    No bad smells here image

  • AR - Well done on the LSR; all looking very promising.
    SJ - excellent running; good luck for Sunday.
    PMJ  - looks like you've got the beginnings of a plan.
    MsE - great to hear you did a 16 miler. Steady as she goes...
    Speedy - that's some schedule. Just think what you might do for the mile if it were your A goal! Nice long slow 22 miler today?
    OOlg - hope the parkrun went okay.
    I didn't have the best day at the office. 1st mile, or lap should I say, more or less spot on target pace in 6:04, but then faded with 6:23 and 6:26 for the next two; last bit in 0:46, giving me 19:41 and 11th place. 1st anniversary for local parkrun today; got beaten by Batman, but managed to hold off Buzz Lightyear. Glutes and hamstrings a bit sore now, so taking it easy. All the best to anyone racing this weekend and enjoy your long runs.

  • Batman finished in 3rd place with a time of 18:07 and turned out to be none other than Bruce Wayne, VM70-74, with an age-graded result of 101.29% ! I don't think he'll be claiming a new world record for his age as he looked suspiciously like a rather younger regular parkrunner on de-maskingimage

  • CC2 - Speedy Goth wrote (see)

    I did my magic mile last night on a track on top of a hill. 5.34.1, which gives me a WAVA of 76%. Sorry PMJ, bumped you down a spot!

    No probs. I was planning on doing a second mile one evening this week on the track and 76% is 5:24 for me so I just need to improve from 5:26 to 5:23 to leapfrog back over you. In fact I would like to be closer to 5:20 dead and 77%.

    SlokeyJoe wrote (see)
    PMJ, I think that your reference to pacing is pertinent in your attempt on 2:45. If I remember correctly your previous (excellent) times at 26.2 were all quite front loaded with a "cling on to the end" mentality. I think part of your lead up to the big 2:45 effort should concentrate on getting even pacing (or even the recommended slight negative split) nailed.

    SJ, I strongly suspect that everything will need to come together so I need to train well and get in a long miles and good miles, I need to race the race well, I need the weather to be right, I need MartinH to decide that he wants to do 2:45 as well and run alongside me, ...

    In terms of pace, I did 2:57 with splits of 1:26 and 1:31 so that was a hang on and 2:50 with splits of 1:24 and 1:26 which I think was not too bad. For 2:45 I will try something like 1:22 and 1:23 so a very small positive split. In reality that means even pace up to 20 or 22 and then 10 to 15 seconds a mile slower over the last 6 to 4.

    parkrun this morning and did 19:53 which is nothing spectacular but definitely on the road to recovery. I can definitely run much more even splits at a lower pace, all the kms within about 10 seconds of each other and clustered just inside 4 minutes each.

  • TRTR ✭✭✭

    PMJ - I was thinking about you today. If you do a 20, 15, 10, 5+5, 5+5, 5+5 in marathon buildup that gives you 75 mpw which is great, the double recovery days are great, as you get two lots of fresh/healing blood. But during the base phase when you dont need the recovery runs, you could turn some of those 5s into 8's or 10s and not have to do the doubles. All easy paced running, lots of aerobic base building there. Great foundations. I wouldnt run longer than about 16M this side of Christmas either. SO maybe a 16 and a 13 rather than a 20 and 15.

  • TR, the way things pan out for me is that I have a regular Thursday medium run that oscillates somewhere between 13 and 15 and I race at the weekend and with warm up and cool down that gives me a 10 mile tempo session. The Tuesday run then starts out in the 7 to 10 range and I wind that up so it eventually pulls up alongside the 15 and then goes onto 22 so my medium always stays as a medium and my long grows out of a nothing sort of run. It would be fairly easy to have 7 or 8 miles 3x a week so say 22, then a 10 and 15 and say a 13 for 60 a week in base off singles.

    Gul, what are your long term goals now? A while ago you were shooting 20 min for 5k and now today you do 19:41 on a bad day at the office. Any plans for Great eastern half or other flat autumn races out there in the East? Daughter #2 has a confirmed place at Cambridge so I will be drawn back closer to home on a regular basis over the next 3 years.

  • PMJ - I wouldn't say it was a bad day at the office, just slightly disappointing. Long term goal is definitely to run a marathon in a fit state off a decent campaign to see what I can do. Medium term will be to get sub 40 and sub 90 under the belt. For now, short term is to keep focussing on the shorter stuff while I am still improving (sub 19 would be nice). I had been hoping to do a HM in the spring, but it looks like it will probably get pushed back to autumn 2013 now partly because of the lack of local HMs at that time of year.

  • BirchBirch ✭✭✭

    Was also thinking "PMJ", but TR has pre-empted my thoughts; and on the pacing issue, just checked, and very similar to your aim, PMJ, mine was 1:21:30 & 1:24:30, for 2:46:00 on watch (2:46:27 gun (no chip timing in 1991)) - so 2nd half fade. Not noted in my diary, but I suspect also was even paced 'til about 20.  Good on you for nailing your colours to the mast - with you & Speedy and many others to vicariously follow, these are exciting times even for we ageing/benched lags. 

    Some coincidences too in today's posts - Great Eastern Half mentioned - was my PB course on 13/05/90 !  Pancake flat as I recall.
    Having coffee post parkrun daughter supporting, I mentioned that Batman had beaten my daughter in last week's Great Yorkshire Run, and my pal said he'd been beaten once at VLM by Buzz Lightyear, and lo & behold Gul mentions both characters! (Fine p'run, Gul). 

    Good work MsE, btw, & SJ - tks for asking - knee still (relatively) OK - did 4 today, giving me a 9 mile week (!) but my gait still not natural, leading to hip stiffness. Good to be out in the sunshine, though, even at my current level . . . .

  • It's nice to hear you're getting back out there Birch. It is indeed a lovely day for a run, though after 3 hours of it I have to admit I was getting a little warm. Just over 22 miles in just over 3 hours, including a bimble round Parkrun early on. Now I get to have a nice rest for the rest of the day as the BBQ I was planning to go to has been cancelled due to the host being ill. Just waiting for the sun to move around to my back garden so I can sit out with a book!

    I have beaten by Batman before at the GNR. He ran 1.24 I think, which was a good 5 mins slower than his PB when not in costume. Of course I've also been beaten by Wonderwoman on that course (Nell McAndrew!). 

    PMJ I got a bit lost somewhere in your post of which runs you do, but I can't see any intervals in there. Do you do them? 

  • Good news Birch, good luck with the appointment.



    Watched a tv programme this morning called "Road to Glory" (episode 2 of 5) about team sky's assault on the tour. Amazing level of attention to detail - absolutely no stone unturned - would highly recommend watching it of you get Sky Atlantic. Lots to be learned by other sports and lots of businesses on how to focus on a goal and relentlessly go at it. PMJ would love it!image
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