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Andi well done ! Sounds like everyone set off too fast
BeDe hope you're ok
DD nice parkrun and well done on the progressive 20 miler
Long run for me yesterday. The day started off sunny and warm but fortunately clouded over. I tried out a different session: 6 x (1m easy, 2m @ "pMP"). Splits were 9:33 7:49 7:58 9:11 7:54 7:45 9:22 7:59 7:57 9:23 7:53 8:09 9:21 8:02 8:04 9:16 8:00 7:50. The pMP miles stayed under 83%max right to the end.
Week's stats 69.1m in 9h46, 8:29mm av. and 73% avg.HRmax
Nice session there Teknik ... might try that one nearer the big day.
Teknik - interesting. I guess 1m easy brings the HR down? and therefore there is less drift at the end.
BeDe yes I think that's the idea - almost no drift on the 2m efforts. Had I done 6m easy then 12m at 80-83% then I suspect I would be drifting / slowing down at the end.
Today is day 1 of my HADD training plan. I have read the HADD document and pulled together my training plan but have a couple of questions and hoped you guys could give me some help and advice.
I calculated my MHR a few months ago at 175; that means for the phase of running between 70%-75% I will be running at 123 - 131 bpm. However, I'm not sure if, in this first phase, I should do all my runs at in this HR range or if I should also be doing 2 days at a higher HR range ?
I have also seen reference to 'drifting', could you explain what this means and how this works ?
Carterusm welcome to the thread. You are going to get a variety of answers, from far better athletes than me, but here's my two-pence worth:
1. When you say you calculated your max as 175, did you do a proper test, or was that 220-Age?
2. Hadd didn't bother telling Joe what to do until he got to 50 mpw. Now none of us are Joe, but from personal experience the longer you spend building miles at 70-75% the better. You'll find your HR drops/ pace increases without doing the more intensive stuff.
3. Drift is bad. Your HR will creep/drift up while running at a constant pace because (a) you get hot (b) you get tired. Higher HRs are linked to rising lactate and H+ ions that end up with cramp and the requirement to stop. Hadd training is about running with a strict HR limit, and over time your HR will drift less, allowing you to maintain a constant pace, getting to the point where you might actually complete a marathon on even splits without throwing up/slowing down/crying on the roadside/bemoaning the fact that the compression socks "don't work".
"Be patient. Do good work. And improvements will come."
Txs BeDe, youv'e given me a couple of gaols for the future then
Dr.Dan, cool, a 13M sub-LT session! that's my first then Gr8 Parkrun, doubt I'll ever get down to 20:20 (my vision isn't even 20:20 anymore lol). Loving your idea of a 'cool down' after a 20 miler lol
Teknik, txs, and yup, seemed way too fast and to think most people carried on the entire way faster than that. As always, gr8 Weekly Stats! Am thinking it's time I moved up a gear, am still at the slow jog/walk up (most) hills then spend the downhill section lowering my HR.
Hey Carterusm and welcome (relative) Newbie to HADDing as well and concur with Teknik. I (thought I got) great results after 5 months of this but was using WHR not MHR so was actually working much harder than I should have. Corrected in July so really on Month 2. I've done no 'speed work' but on Sunday managed to run a HM 95 secs/mile faster than training and at (just) 80% of MHR albeit in 2:13:08. I have a Marathon in September and after that will try to increase my 'base' over the Winter and be much stricter with pace V MHR%.
4.5 mile 'recovery' run today, felt ok but have a pretty big blister on my second toe, no fluid in it but was quite sore along with my inner thighs. 11:34mm but at 74%, will try harder tomorrow
lol, its nice how you can make graphs look 'better' this is from the Mull Half. 'Comfort' break at 3.5 miles and the next spike (5.5 miles) was the second drinks station, at the first I realised I can't run whilst drinking from a cup but got a bit better at the next 2 by slowing right down. In the last few miles I knew I'd beaten my target time and as there was nobody to chase nor catch me up I relaxed a bit The course seemed really flat but my Garmin Training Centre says 1531 feet! it must be wrong as the same data in my Garmin connect says it was 721 feet and when clicking the 'corrected' button it said 935 feet - weird!
Wow, everyone's been busy.
Andi, congrats on a nice race!
Tek and Dr. Dan...very nice 5K times and 20 milers. Tek, not long ago I did an 18 with the last 12 at 80%...I think your variation sounds interesting. If I ever heal up, will give it a go.
Chick, nice subLT the other day...great splits.
Well, I've been limping along (metaphorically!). Got a nice 10 miler in Friday...weekend off (had kids all by myself so just strength training in the house). Today got 12 miles in (no pain...just a little tightness over the last mile or so). I find after about 7 miles I'll feel some tightness but stopping to stretch for a minute relieves it immediately. I ran miles 4-10 pretty fast (it felt super super good!)...and it was hot and uphill on the last bit so noticed my HR was at 180...so pushed it and got up to 193. Haven't been North of 180 in some time so good to see I'm still close to the 199 from a few years ago. I could have gotten a few more beats, but feared my knee would implode. Not sure why I did it in the first place but it felt great to just run. I feel like a teenager dating for the first time. I get so excited on the days I can run now. Anyway, will stop rambling now.
Txs VTR and someone was up late!sounds like you had a couple of really good runs! Running for runnings sake is the best way though I'm a bit of a Garmin/Spreadsheet nurd.
Oh, and think you getting 'excited' (like a teenager dating) when you run might hamper your gait
Andi - Vaseline!!
Carterusm - welcome - stick at 70-75% for a while. HADD is not a quick fix, yes it does take patience but you will be rewarded in the long run (forgive pun). A lot depends on your current level of fitness and I would say the same as Teknik you need to 'test' your maxHR rather than a calculation from formula. I admit the first time I tried it I didn't have the patience and I was constantly getting niggly injuries. Came back to it months later after my first half mara and never looked back. Being honest it took me 16 weeks before I saw a 'pace to HR' improvement but boy when it came it sure did. Don't even try any 80% runs until you can do 10miles without any major drift of the HR (pretty sure that is in the HADD doc somewhere). So your aim would be to keep at 70%-75% until then.
VT - doesn't it feel great to 'let go' every now and then, soon as my back is sorted you can be sure I'll be doing that
Morning. Thanks for your comments guys. I took my MHR by running 5k flat out and taking the highest reading, this was at the beginning of the year. I have plenty of time to be patient as I'm currently limiting my runs to a maximum of 5 miles each under instructions from the physio who is treating my ITB. The pain kicks in after 8/9 miles so he figures if my runs are no more than 5 miles that should keep me ticking over and help strengthen the knee without doing any further damage. I'm also at the beginning of changing to a mid-foot strike so plenty of slow, steady runs should help that too, hopefully. So, it sounds like 70-75% for a few weeks is the order of the day. I also am cycling quite a bit at the moment. Do you think I should try and keep my HR in the same range as when I'm running or doesn't it make any difference with the cycling ?
Popping in to firstly apologise for not posting recently, and secondly to virtually pat you guys on the back. Specially Andi for a confidence-boosting hm and BeDe for rehabbing sensibly and getting back to it.
Welcome carterusm. Can't fault the advice that's been given so far. DrDan is the man to answer the cycling question. Good luck with the itb rehab. Are you able to do any gym work?
carter - see Dr.Dan's post on p.183 (09/08/2013 at 13:55) for some cycling stuff
carterusm welcome! I'd consider your 5K peak HR as being maybe 96-98% of your actual maxHR as it's pretty hard to get to max in such a long race (unless you started slow and built up the effort gradually). I had bad ITBS in 2009 and eventually cured it 100% by changing from heel-strike to fore-foot landing, so defitely good plan to go that route. Stick with lots of 5M runs at 70-75% maxHR for now and you'll get in good shape, especially with some cycling thrown in (I'm not much of a cyclist but I use it to commute and find it helps spread the load when injured or coming back from injury). I don't pay much attention to HR on the bike but, as BeDE said above, I did dip my toe in the water once and came up with some numbers which my be useful.
Brian - good to see you popping in!
BeDe wrote (see)
Andi - Vaseline!!
Txs, is that for the toe or the inner thigh? I do use Lanacane on nips and 'downstairs' on longer runs when I remember.
Carterusm, I've been using 188bpm as my max for a year now after a 'hill test' but have hit it a couple of times on hills during training so may redo the test at somepoint. I guess you should leave another test until your back to full fitness. I don't cycle though have a spin bike in my lounge! it's a great place to hang running gear. Am sure I read that HR 'zones' for cycling are lower than for running, something to do with sitting rather than your legs carrying all your weight?
WB Brian! txs for the comment and yes, it was confidence boosting even though it's only 50% of the distance How's your running coming along?
Have just started reading P&D's Advanced Marathoning but no plans to use any of it until next year. Will carry on as is until the Marathon then (after a rest) do a proper base build over the Winter and will then be back to pick brains on how you mix HADDing with P&D
Dr. Dan, wanted to thank you for the cycling information. Based on what you posted my rides would be squarely in the aerobic zone. Not sure I can find the kind of empty roads required to get my HR much higher (even then not sure if I can get my legs to go much faster). The bike for me is likely starting from scratch I guess.
Itching to go for a short run today but my knee is a bit tight (as usual the day after a run). Think I'll opt for tomorrow and play it safe.
Thanks Dr.Dan/Andy. I will do another HR test shortly based on HADD's 800m followed 400m flat out and see what that brings.
So, my spreadsheet is up and running and I'm monitoring the pace and HR of every mile and have even made a note of what my route's are for each run so I can compare them as well. All very anal but I suspect all other HADDers have such a spreadsheet ??
Good luck for the MAX test carterusm
As for spreadsheet's, yes. am sure most of us have one I've got my colour coded input page, weekly stats, totals, predicted monthly mileage, Loch Ness training stats, overall stats, shoe mileage, PB's, and the list goes on
Andi, everything is fine at this end. 5 weeks done and 10 to go. Cut-back mileage this week with 2 benchmark races. York 5k tonight and Birchwood 10k on Sunday. 2x20milers done already and training is on schedule.
Looking good Brian.!
VT - good luck with the biking! Yes, open/safe roads are a big issue with training properly on a bike! I originally calculated the HR stats to use on the turbo trainer in the winter of 2011/2012 when I was injured. I left the bike and turbo at work and then set it up a lunch breaks in the bike shed/cage. It worked okay .... very hard work ... probably very good for me ... but it was hellishly BORING.
I log all my training, heart rates, races, trainer usage, etc on fetcheveryone.com and have it going back to mid 2008. In previous years I have also logged sub-LT sessions ona spreadsheet - I do them all on the same route, so it was useful to monitor pace & drift.
Andi I always get weird elevation results - log in to Garmin TC and it says x, click on the same run and it says y, the watch itself says z, and when I log into Fetch it gives me another number!
VT take care with the knee and good luck with the cycling
BeDe how's it going?
Carter like DD I log all my stuff on www.fetcheveryone.com - mileage per trainer being the latest geeky thing I've started using
Brian sounds like the plan is going well - good luck with the race tonight
Recovery jog Monday, 14m MLR Tuesday then subLT today. 1m warm up then 9m running with a ceiling of 83%max. Came out as 7:52mm, but the HR jumped up at mile 9, (albeit uphill) so still plenty of work to do here. Ten and a half weeks to go...
Nice running Teknik.
A sub-LT for me today too ... 11.3M with 10M at subLT, 83% maxHR and 7:33/m. However, the devil is in the detail and it was not a well executed session ... a few miles run too hard (84%) in the middle resulted pace drift at the end. My calf hurts a bit noiw too ... it's been severely iced and we shall see. I'll rest tomorrow though ... 9 days on the trot now, with 2 10M subLTs, a parkrun race and a 20M, so probably over-doing things!
DD I blame the heat ...good few days' running. Hope the calf is ok.
It was definitely too hot.
Next week I'm off camping, which is always hit-and-miss on the training front, so I think I've been pushing to get in a couple of really solid weeks running in. But maybe pushing a bit too much. I'll drag the bike out tomorrow ... cleaned it before the tri-that-never-was at the end of July and haven't used it since.
Tek - back sore today - don't think it's the running, still keeping at 30mins and below 70%. I knew I shouldn't have done that bunjee jump at the weekend (only kidding).Dr.D - careful on the subLT's - funny thinking back that's when my niggles started to come in last year - but surely you have a great base to back any subLT up now? or is 84% just that bit too much?
Wee 3 miles at 84% is asking for drift at the end of 10M, at least this stage, but it should not itself cause any injury .... however, 74 miles in 9 days, with 26 of them being "quality", is probably too much. It's like your bunjee jumping ... it's just asking for trouble.
Dr.Dan - a beginners question. You were meant to be running between 80%-83% but you ran 3 miles @ 84% ? To me, it doesnt make sense that just 1% could make so much difference. How is that so ?
80-83% is 140-145 bpm for me ... 145 bpm for a full 10M is tough enough, so spending 3M in the middle of the 10M at 147 bpm is asking for cardiac drift (at this stage of training). I can complete the session ... but my pace will start to slow over the last few miles (for the same heart rate). It's only my 2nd full 10M at sub-LT this year, so I'd be better off running it all closer to140 bpm at this stage.
Carter, I would add to what DD said, that this session is probably the one everyone fusses over - it's a key indicator of what MP is likely to be, and you're not supposed to push up the pace until you get a flat HR print. It's a bit of a juggling act, as you never know what pace you will print for a given HR (too many variables) - run a bit too fast and the HR drifts up; run a bit too slow and you feel like you've wasted an opportunity to show some improvement.