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Just checking back in. I have slowly worked my way back. I am now running 5 days a week again and can go up to 14 miles without ITB issues. Apparently strong hips = good for me. I haven't lost a ton of my fitness and am now debating running an Oct. 13th marathon. I might just plug into the 12 week P&D schedule for the up to 55 miles per week (leaving the injury riddled 55-70 behind). That would get me 2 20-milers before the race. Don't think I can hit a 3:15 but perhaps something close. We'll see.
Carter, yes, low HR early AM and higher in the afternoon. Also higher HR after a week off.
Dr. Dan...good luck with everything. I would say you'll be in great shape as long as the cake doesn't burn. Good luck.
lol Carter, I just wish I popped some conditioner in the back pocket now
As for your HR I'm with VT and would expect your HR to be lower in the morning after a good nights rest, was the weather bad?
VT, good to hear the ITB issues seem to have gone and if things feel good am sure you'll be fine for October.
I've been reading P&D and almost at their training plans, is there an easy/tested way to incorporate them into HADDing? My master plan is to rest after Loch Ness at the end of the month then do some proper HADDing and move things up a notch in the New Year - looking for advice and tips please.
I think you can do P&D in the spirit of HADD without too much trouble. When I was doing the plan earlier in the summer, I just treated my runs similar to what HADD would suggest. That translates into up to 2 80% runs each week (you can fit these in however you want...one can be the P&D lactate threshold run...the other can be the Sunday long runs with a certain % of the miles at MP (which would be 80%)). You could also do 2 80% runs plus some 80% during the long run. Then I would make all the other runs sit in the 70-75% range. Or for the recovery runs, sub-70% would be great.
Looking back on my training, I bit off a lot with the 55-70 mile plan. That is a pretty grinding schedule with few recovery weeks fit in. Honestly, I wonder if I shouldn't have just kept my HADD schedule (1 80% run per week and some 80% built into the weekend long run) as my stats almost seemed better before moving to P&D. Tough call, especially for Mr. Fragile (me).
One 80% run per week and some 80% built into the weekend long run is what I'm doing now ... and it is tough enough, especially when bulding up the long run distance to 20/20+. I know that I couldn't do 2 x sub-LTs mid week at the moment!
DD well done on clocking up the 20+ milers
Carter nice pace for a 70% run. My HR is lower in the morning...
Andi LOL...it reminds me of my Berlin mara a couple of years ago. I had covered my legs in Vaseline to stop the chafing. About 20 miles in, it was really hot, and I was throwing cups of water over myself at every water station. I noticed a few people pointing at me, and when I looked down I had a stream of white fluid rolling out of my shorts...melted Vaseline
VT welcome back and glad your fitness hasn't suffered much.
On the P&D front, I started off with P&D before discovering Hadd, and my schedule now hasn't got much P&D left - no tempos, no V.02, although I've kept the scheduled MP finishes on the LRs (as a second subLT, like VT and DD), and I've kept the tune-up races. Most importantly, I think, I've kept the 2 MLRs a week (12-15m) - tough but they really help.
Recovery bimble Monday, 14m easy Tuesday, then today's subLT went well - 10m averaged 7:44mm, so significant daylight between that and the 8mm needed for a sub3:30. 8 weeks to go !
Nice going Teknik. I really need to do a sub-LT this week but I'm still feeling a bit battered from the weekend's running. Hopefully tomorrow!
Back to the "one 80% run per week and some 80% built into the weekend long run" chat ... I've only done this in marathon training when my long runs are 20+. So most of the run is 70% but then there may be 6M at sub-LT effort. The rest of the year my long runs are not long enough (14M max) so they stay as 70% runs.
VT - good news about your ITB, how long have you been suffering with it ? Mine is still rubbish so I'm going to take your advice and include some hip and glutes exercises too.
Andi - I started on a P&D plan before changing to HADD and there were some tough sessions on it, well I thought so anyway. The Lactate Threshold runs were the toughest where you were running 12 miles including 7 @ LT pace, mind you I was running them too quickly which might explain why I found them so tough ! Then there were long runs of between 16-20 miles with 14-16 miles @ MP, this in a week where you might do a tough LT session and a Medium run as well. Good luck with it
Dr.Dan - sub LT runs. When the time comes for me to start with these, how do I work out my LT pace ?
Teknik - some good running from you this week and great use of the word 'bimble'. A question for you: based on my 09:08 which is 70.3% of my MHR run is it possible to estimate what my marathon pace would be in say 6 months time ? (assuming 6 months of training goes well without injuries etc). The reason I ask is because I had a MP in mind of 8:35 for a 3:45 marathon time. These 70% runs are so very easy at the moment it feels like running @ 8:35 would also be relatively easy and that I may be able to run faster (I may be being naive here)
Carter I just checked my stats for this time last year - all my runs were either 70% recoveries or longer 75% runs (using HR% as a ceiling, not an average), and my pace was slower than yours: I managed 8:42mm at Frankfurt (even splits). With 6 months of solid Hadding your MP will be faster than 8:35mm, maybe a lot faster
carterusm wrote (see)
Dr.Dan - sub LT runs. When the time comes for me to start with these, how do I work out my LT pace ?
HADD's sub-LT sessions are based in HR. Below is some lines cut/pasted/edited from one of his let's run threads...
Two days per week do this:Tue: a session at 80% HRmaxFri: a session at 85% HRmaxThe Tues session can start at 2 x 15 mins ... slowly build up along these lines as you get more and more comfortable at that effort:2 x 15 mins, 2 x 20 mins, 3 x 15 mins, 1 x 30 mins, 30 mins + 15 mins, 1 x 40 mins, 35 mins + 15 mins, 1 x 45 mins...There is no need to take every step, but slowly try and increase the amount of time you can run at that HR. Take a relaxed 3-5 mins jog break in between each long rep.The Fri session you can begin shorter;2 x 8-10 mins with 3-5 mins jog break. Then build to 2 x 12 mins, 2 x 15 mins, etc. Don't be in a hurry to build, let the physical adaptations happen in your muscles and it will get easier and easier as the weeks go by.
Do a 10 min jog warm up before each session. Some simple stretches and 3 x 100m strides with 60 secs jog break) and then begin.
You should find that as well as you gaining the ability to go longer and longer at this effort level, that the pace at these HRs improves over the weeks. But don't get too anal about whether each session is faster than the week before, just get the work in. Improvement is not linear.
Dr. Dan, yes, I agree that getting one solid 80% and maybe a chunk of the LR at 80% is plenty when the mileage ramps up. That's about what I did from March to end of May and my gains were huge. Then I P&Ded myself. I think I might do just fine with only this bit of HADD provided I can work out the right LR and MLR distances during the week. I'm an FT guy anyway, so this might realistically be my best option.
Carter, I got hurt in mid-July, so wasn't injured very long in retrospect. Not sure if the hip/glute stuff is the magic or not, but in my case I knew I had an imbalance to fix. Couldn't hurt to try but I absolutely hate all these PT exercises. It takes me 30 minutes just to be "ready" to actually run. But then again, I am running again so no pain in the a$$, no gain.
Teknik - thanks, so you're saying I can run a 2:30 in 6 months time then !!!
Dr.Dan - thanks for that. Something I need to get my head around is the last sentence "improvement is not linear". I've just been out and done a 5 mile route near to home and when I check my stats it was probably my worst HADD run yet; my average pace was about 20 seconds per mile slower but my average heart rate had gone up by 3 bpm.I guess it's all about thinking of the longer term picture.
VT - I agree about the exercises being a pain. I notice that you do yours just before you go for a run whereas I do mine last thing at night. Do you think it makes any difference when you actually do them ?
VT, Dr Dan, Teknik, Carter, many thanks for all your replies about P&D. I've finished the book now and decided that I'll stick to HADDing and maybe progress to Phase II in the New Year after a few good months of Phase I - it seems to be a less injury prone route
LOL at the Vaseline incident Teknik. Sounds like you should peak just in time for the Marathon. As Carter says, love Bimble and my word of the week - Bimble - 'to move at a leisurely pace'
Carter, sounds like HADDing is giving you better results than P&D and yup, Dr Dan is right (I think) and progress is not linear - well, not for me anyway. Am expecting good things from you in 6 months btw.
Dr Dan, thanks for the snippet from HADD, I like the sound of that and must re read the document again.
Another 10 miler today and again it didn't really fit any 'proper' run, AHR was 78% and 9 secs/mile slower than pMP (6 miles sub pMP). I did stop for a drink/blok and comfort break before attempting to tackle the 250ft hill at the start of mile 7 and wonder if I'll ever be able to run up it as even walking my HR went up to 85%
Last week I joked about you guys and ITB well, the joke is on the other foot (or knee) it seems. The last couple of runs I've been getting pain in my right knee, sort of on the cap and just below it - is this what ITB is? It gets worse running downhill. I should do my last 20 miler in the next couple of days (Monday at the latest) should I grin and bear it in the knowledge that Taper starts next week so less mileage or bin the last LSR (have only done 2 20 milers so far though). Thoughts folks?
Andi - ITB will give you pain on the outside of the knee, in particular in the boney bit that sticks out. I think when the ITB is tight it doesn't move as intended and rubs against bone which is what causes the pain. It sounds to me like you have a case of runners knee. If you go to a website called knee-pain-explained it gives you the symptoms of all types of knee pain and some exercises to help. Re your long run I would say go for it but if the knee starts hurting give yourself the option of cutting the run down. After how many miles the you get the knee pain ?
Carter, txs for that, I sort of thought it was upping the mileage that may have caused it plus, with the bad weather recently I've switched courses to a smaller single track road and it has quite a pronounced camber so maybe the fact that one leg (the bad one) is mostly lower than the ok leg and, come to think of it I did complain about my right glute the other day and may have been the onset of this?
I seem to be collecting injuries with sprting names, have Tennis/Golf elbow and play neither and now have runners knee and pretty lame at that (pun intended).
I'm fine around the house but as soon as I run its hurts and gets worse on declines and then aches through the evening - Arnica Gel does ease it for a while.
Andi, if you have runners knee, it's all about strengthening the inner thigh muscles. When they get weak/tired, the knee cap doesn't track correctly, and you get rubbing on the cartilage...hence the pain. Ice, Advil, and PT (I bet you can find the exercises easily online).
Carter, My PT says I have to do these before the runs as they "adjust" my left hip to where it should be. The links I provided to the hip/glute stuff describe an additional workout that I try to do 1 or 2 times per week (after runs for this). It's interesting...after all this strengthening work on my left hip, I can actually tell that my glutes and inner thigh fire now when I run. Apparently I do all my work with my quads, calves, and upper abdominals and back (and need to change this to include the hammy, glutes, and hips)
Andi - running too much on a camber is not good and good have contributed to the injury, as could increasing too much too soon. Weak glutes seems to be a big problem that can cause all sorts of injuries, here is a link to some strengthening exercises that may help you - http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/glute-strength?page=single. There is also the link VT posted - http://strengthrunning.com/2011/02/the-itb-rehab-routine-video-demonstration/. If you still have time when you have done all these exercises maybe you could go for a run
VT - I am definitely guilty of not doing enough exercises. I tell myself I will spend a few minutes doing them just before I go to bed and then I get tired and dont bother doing them. They need to become more routine for me
I am totally useless at any gym/core/PT exercise. I just run ... and if I'm injured (or tri-traininf, or just trying to burn more calories), I bike & swim a bit.
I may have said this before ... I "cured" my ITBS issues (manifested as runner's knee) by switching to fore-foot landing and shortening my stride length. I did this by spending 6 months in VFFs (including races ... 10K, HM, Mara). I then switched from VFFs to racing flats and have never had a knee issues since.
Is it just me ... but this thread is no longer appearing in the Training Forum list.
I can get to it via a direct link or via "My Forum/My Posts" links ... and I can post a message ... but it is still not visible in the forum???
EDIT ... I think it's related to me not being able to see the first post (by JohnnyBike). I've contacted JohnnyBIke via PM to see if he's done anything ... we may need to make a new HADD forum in the meantime.
Dr.Dan - I dont see this thread in the main list but can also access it from my Followed Threads link. I have only notcied this today but it did happen a few weeks ago and seemed to get sorted after a while.
I too am currently transitioning to a mid-foot landing and keep meaning to count the number of strides I am currently taking, although it feels to me like I already have a failry short stride. I tried the mid-foot landing a few weeks ago by doing it in just one of my runs each week and slightly increasing the distance I would run. This resulted in a pain in the bottom of my foot, which has now gone, so I am currently running 1 mile of every run I do with a mid-foot landing. This seems to be going well in as much as I am not getting any new niggles. I will gradually increase this distance each week I think. How did you approach your change ?
I started a new thread...
But if the original magically returns, this won't be required.
txs for all the advice again folks and sounds like my mileage will reduce because of all the time spent 'preparing' lol. Dr.Dan, you managed a Marathon in VFF's after only 6 months? I have a pair of barely used (see what I did their?) Bikilas so will break them out after the Marathon - got to 1.75 miles in them when I first tried. I found it much easier fore foot striking going uphill, it seemed difficult going down steeper hills.
Yup, had to find an alternative route to here this morning. I was already having issues as if I clicked on 'last post' I'd be taken to random pages in the thread so then had to click on 'last page' then scroll down (happens on all long threads).
Knee feels better this morning and currently sporting my magnetic elbow support on it (must have skinny knees lol).
How did you approach your change ?
How did you approach your change ?
The VFFs made heel-striking impossible, so there was only one way to go ... and that was 100%. But I had been injured for 6 weeks when I transitioned (went over on my ankle and it was very badly bruised) so I re-started with low miles/short runs anyway. I did run everyday though ... it was January and my NY's resolution was to run everyday in Jan. It tooks a week or two to condition my calf muscles as they took a lot more strain with the new gait and I also had some minor foot arch issues too ... but all in all it went smoothly.
sub-LT session done ... 11.3 miles with 10+ at 7:42/m and 81% maxHR. A little slower and easier than previous sessions ... and much more enjoyable as a result! I did most of it at 80% and let it drift upwrds in the last couple of miles ... much more civilised than 83% from the start, probably a sign that I really was sub-LT, rather than tipping just over LT.
I have not done anything to the thread and I can see the thread in the list of recent threads.
Hope everyone is doing well.
EDIT: still not showing up on the forum.
If I look at the training section of the forum it is the 3rd thread down, updated at 21:10 by Dr Dan
Nice sub-LT Dr.Dan I keep saying it but (maybe) one day I'll post some serious paces lol
Regarding the missing thread, I wonder if now would be a good time to start 'phase' 2 of this thread as I (for one) found threads with 1,000's of replies a little daunting to post in as a newbie.
Also, seeing as you posted all the original links in the new thread I started reading the 'doc' again and already planning my post Mara base building phase.
oh, just how do you get a rat to run at a given HR%?
Knee felt fine today but 2 miles into my 5 mile run the pain was back again though it was 20 secs/mile faster than pMP and averaged 75%. I'm probably going to bin my 20 miler this week and may visit the doc in the morning and plan on tapering by running at MP - wise or stupid idea? I would like to get a better feel of 11:16mm for a continual run rather than have it go up and down (as the hills do) so will let the HR do what it does.
Dr. Dan, nice sub-LT. I had a similar run. Did a 5 mile warm up with a buddy at work, then did 7 miles @ 7:26 and ave HR 160 (80%). It was pretty hot out but despite that I felt very comfortable and in control (could have kept going). ITB was silent. It'll be interesting to see what I'm capable of come race day when the temps are 30 degrees cooler and I get a few more 20 milers in.
Andi, be very careful (as Dr. Dan usually warns me). Obviously the safe move would be to take some time off to heal (when is your race BTW?). Maybe taking a few days (or even a week) might allow you to recover (I'm guessing your body is protesting all the miles recently). I think you may be on the verge of a small issue turning large. But it's so hard to know as I've had other issues that never seem to blow up. Do you think it's getting worse with each run?
Well, despite my concerns a few days ago, I managed 23 miles yesterday at average HR 137 (73%) 4:52
I was particilarly pleased with my pacing for a change,
first 5 miles 58 mins
10 miles in 1:58
15 miles in 3:00
20 in 4:10
so up until 15 miles ish, I kept a pretty even 12mm, then the next 5 @ 12.30mm
the wheels fell off a bit on the last 3, I was doing walk run more as the hills had suddenly turned into vertical walls, but still did 13.54mm
As far as HR goes, with so many hills, I think I can only really take an overall, although ismoothrun does show av HR on each mile split which kinda echoed the 134-140 on each except the last 3 which the walking lowered a bit.
Still, keeping steady has worked better this time. Only one more 20+ before taper so lets hope it shows similar results!
Andi: what you are describing sounds exactly the same as something I managed a few months ago, straining your Patela Tendon. Its the short one that goes just at the front of your knee cap and joins your Tibular an inch or two below. Its right in front of the cap, not on the sides. It hurts like sh*t when it plays up. I had to alter my form to compensate for it, and be very careful not to aggrevate it. Sorry to say that if it IS this, it takes a lot of gentle treatment and time to clear. However, if you are careful, you can still run but keep note of what makes it hurt more, up hill, downhill, foot landing to far ahead, pushing off at the end of each stride etc. Can you kneel down on it? (do this very gently) I made sure I wore a stretch knee support which did help a lot, but would have been better off with a patella tendon strap, just hadnt seen them at the time. I also gently massaged the area with a tennis ball to 'roll' it and take the tension out of it. Didnt start that until it wasnt painful to touch tho. Hope it clears enough for your race VT is also right about a small issue turning large. Without care, it can get nasty, so try and do everything to understand what helps and what makes it worse. This pic shows it
Andi take care of that knee fella - you don't want to bugger up all the good training you've been putting in. See a Fizz, rest a little, ice etc...
DD nice subLT
Cheesy well done for getting through that 23 miler
All ok here - 12m in the heat on Thursday, short 200/200 session Friday, club run of 9m in the rain this morning. I'm glad the weather's going to be cooler tomorrow for my LSR.