HADD training plan



  • DrDan, sounds like you had a busy 9 days and probably due a restimage The terrain 'undulates' so much here I really struggle to get an even HR, even if I'm reduced to walking my HR can/will still climb on the steeper hills.

    BeDe, funny you joke about Bungee Jumping, when my back was bad (not like yours of course) I often thought about an ankle Bungee Jump thinking it might snap things back together again (never did it mind).

    Monday and Tuesday were 4.5 & 3.1 miles and my AHR was quite high (74%) even with easy running so putting it down to the HM? Last night I got out of the chair and my back 'went' and spent a restless night and most of today back in the land of the Chronic pain I had for almost 2 decades - gutted image No running today, just plenty of back excercises, popped a few pills and things are a little easier tonight. If I go out Thurs/Fri will keep the runs easy but have a 20 miler planned for Saturday and with less than 4 weeks before taper I really need to try and get it in.

  • Dr.Dan/Teknik - thanks for the explanation, I guess I'm quite a bit away from running sub LT yet image So is 83% of MHR about marathon pace then ?

    Andi - Hope the back eases. What marathon are you running ?

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Carter, Hadd pushed Joe through 20+ weeks of subLTs, that started at 155 or 160 (for Joe, that was 80% or 83%), and pushed him up over the weeks to 170 (88%).  Every time Joe managed 10 miles with no drift, Hadd upped the intensity. The goal was 175 (which Hadd thought would be the best possible HR for Joe's marathon)

    The theory is that if you can handle 10 miles with no drift, then drift in the remaining 16.2 won't break you. 

    There are a number of guys on the Fetch thread that push the 10m subLT to 84% or 85% - still way off Joe's effort. Then some of them race at that pace, some even faster than that.

    Personally I've not gone beyond 83% without drifting.  Last mara I chickened out and ran even splits at a pace 15 seconds slower than my best subLTs.  So my goal  this time is to get my subLTs, at whatever is a stable HR, but probably only 83%, below 7:45mm - then I know I can handle a 8mm (3:30) without "discomfort".image

  • Txs Carter image I'm doing the Loch Ness (Inverness) Marathon 29th Sept. One of the reasons I chose it is cos it's just (about) 1,000ft incline but 2,000ft declineimage

    Sunday's Half was run at 83% of MAX but more by luck than judgement lol.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    I'd be very scared of running a marathon at sub-LT pace ... I know Brian runs at his 83% pace but I think it would destroy me over 26.2. Just a sign that a lot more training is required!

    The reason 10M sub-LTs are tricky is that the aim is to be just under LT ... a small increase in effort pushes you just over, so you build up lactate, so the session gets tougher very quickly.

    Andi ... watch that back!image


  • Really interesting stuff on the sub-lt runs.

    Carter et al, When I've built the sub-lt's I tend to run at 80% till the pace plateaus. Then up it to 83%. The pace for 10 miles at 83% tends to equate to mp for me but to get this pace in a mara I tend to avg ~86%.

    18:24 at York. A little disappointed to be honest as this is slower than all 3 5ks I ran in May. It was warm and humid (19') and the course is a little twisty turny. Nice meal and a couple of beers last night and horse racing at Beverley today. Decided not to run the 10k on Sunday now, in preference to a long run.

  • A few niggles about. Andi/DrDan/BeDe take care. Listen  to your bodies and back off if you feel the need.

    Teknik, good numbers from you. 10.5 weeks will fly. 

  • Brian - agreed, I'm off for some physio (massage) on the back today so I'll miss a session tomorrow and leave it until this weekend. Hope to start posting some stats in a few weekss time - no point at the moment.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    Brian - don't be too hard on that 5K time - sub-6/m is bliddy quick !!! And Eccup is very flattering due to the net downhill (4K circuit and a 1K final descent). My lad has never broken 20 minutes at the Leeds parkrun but managed 19:22 at Eccup in May.

    Rest day today ... didn't even cycle to work as it was A level results day, so went to work via my daughter's school.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Brian, like DD says, it's still an awesome time. Hope you enjoyed the horsesimage

    BeDe hope the Fizz does the trick

    DD hope DaughterDan was happy with the results

    Andi I suspect the half took a bit out of you, so yes the HR is likely to higher for a few daysimage

    Another 14m MLR for me today.  Very humid, and I pushed some bits with the club too fast.  Looking forward to the recovery day tomorrow.image

  • Txs for the thoughts folks, back seems muct better today though need to keep an eye on it.

    Bede, hope things ease up! and teknik, just spent 10 minutes looking for BeDe's post about 'champagne' then the penny droppedimage

    Well done on the 14 miler Teknik, guess I should be doing some midweek but probs too late for any/much help?

    6.5 miles tonight at 71.81% so HR seems to be returning to normal - was slow though at 11:50mm but still within my 'easy' zone timewise. Just shy of 1,000ft so about the same incline as Loch Ness in less than 1/4 distance.


  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    nice solid running folks image

    work nearly killed me this week with long days, very little sleep, stress and rubbish food ... zero running since Tuesday. ouch. guess i'll give the 10k a miss tomorrow. just not up for it :/

    So this week is a write-off. Back in business next week I hope. Have 3 weeks off now image



  • Some good running people.    I've not run for a week.   Did long tour of Bradwell last week and mashed my quads from the steep downs.    Back for a little one later. 

  • Spen - how was the tour of bradwell ? I was thinking of doing it but my ITB put pay to that. I do some training runs up there so know the area, what was the route ?

    No running for me for 3 days now as I have had a bit of a pain under my foot, a bit of PF potentially. It feels better today so I'm hoping to get out for a run tomorrow. In the meantime, it's beers on the sofa with a film tonight image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Andi good that the HR is getting back to normal after your Half.  My training is a bit of a mishmash between pure Hadd and Pfitzinger's plans - I do think that getting one or two medium runs in midweek is helpful in supporting the long run.

    Chick hope you get back on track soonimage

    Spen well done on the Long Tour of Bradwellimage, hope you recover quickly

    Carterusm sensible decision, hope that it clears up soon

    Bagged another 20 miler this morning - 4 blocks of 3m hard (8'00", all sub83%), 2m easy (9'30"). Suffered a bit into the wind, but happy with the run in the end.  74.9m for the week.

  • Chick, sounds like an allround bad week for you image Am sure you'll bounce right back and enjoy your 3 weeks off image

    Spen,  well done on Bradwell, sounds hard! hope the quads are back to normal now?

    Carter, how's the foot? sounds like the entire thread had a bad week image hope you enjoyed the film (and beer).

    Txs Teknik, am still reading P&D and like you will probably mash to two together next year (got to think ahead lol). Well done on the 20 miler, sounds brutal! Arggh at the wind, it's been gusting around 35mph all week here. 74.9 miles! nice one image

    So, ended up treating the entire week as recovery and only managed 18 miles image  Will try harder this week but looking at the time a morning run won't be happening lol.


  • Andi - Nothing wrong with having a good old recovery week like that one, you will benefit from it this week I would think.

    Teknik - 74.9 miles is a cracking mileage for the week and a good long run to finish the week off.

    Chick - enjoy your 3 weeks off, you dont have any excuse now for getting in plenty of running !

    After 4 days of no running I went and did my 5 mile route yesterday. However, a few hours earlier I had been on a little bike ride for 17 miles, it was a fairly flat route and didnt take much out of me at all. When I checked the stats for my run I noticed that I had run about 10 seconds per mile slower than normal and my HR was up by 2/3  bpm. Should I expect this given I hadnt run for a few days, went for a bike ride before my run and had a greedy weekend of eating and drinking ? Or could it be just one of those days ?

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    I'd put it down as one of those days, carter. The cycling won't have helped though image

    Well, I can certainly get in some running this week, but then we are off to the Alps for some hiking and mountain biking ... not sure I'll do much running there. I found a few trails that look like a lot of fun but it's seriously hilly there. So run/walk will be on the cards.

    Did 10 miles with hubby yesterday at a sedate 10mm pace. Av. HR was 62%   and there was zero drift image

    Probably doing another 10 or 12 today at my own pace around 70%.

  • Tek, you are an iron man! I'm amazed at your consistently consistent weeks of heavy mileageimage.

    Chick, I got one of those weeks when I was in Italy not too long ago. Was actually fun to do the walk/run/hike thingy. You'll build some power!

    So I might be on my way back. Last week I logged 47 miles. Can't say they were all comfortable, but I'm keeping things under the threshold where I can feel tightness, but not pain. Yesterday was 13.4 miles and the last 5 were all sub 7:30. It was midday in full sun and 84 degrees. Usually I'm amazed at how fast I lose my fitness, but this time around all the base I built has stuck nicely. Doubtful that I'll still run a fall marathon as the ITB and calf stuff is just iffy. However, I'm really happy that I can keep all that I've worked for and just keep building. I'll find another race. In the meantime, will keep working on getting my hips straightened out and maybe, just maybe, I can run like Tek and not blow up!image

  • Carter, as Chick says, "just one of those days"image

    Chick, enjoy the hols, I was close(ish) to the Alps last Month - much too hot to run so hiking sounds like a planimage One day I might be able to come on here and say "10 miles at a sedate 10mm and 62%" Excellent image

    Keep it up VT, 47 miles is good going as your coming back and glad to hear your base is helping out in your recovery.

    10 miles today and got a bit of pain in my left calf almost as soon as I started image gave it a rub and continued onward but it only cleared up on a downhill bit. Had it most of the run but it wasn't too painfull. Stretches, gel and calf support and will see how it feels tomorrow. Purposefully went slowly (12:13mm) though couldn't get my HR down and ended up at 72.87% - the 1333ft incline might have been to blameimage

  • VT - looking good on the recovery. Sounds like you are listening to your body.

    Andi - sometimes it can take a bit longer to recover from a race than we think - as you say plenty of stretching. Must be difficult to gauge your HR with all those hills - especially after recovering from a race. Don't under estimate how long recovery can take.

    Chick - jealousimage - I love the Alps - enjoy (I bet you will find a runimage).

    Nothing really to report from me - sticking to the 70% runs, did try a 75% at the weekend but the pace was not that much different. Small improvements - not having to walk as much to keep HR down. Light at the end of the tunnelimage.

  • Chick - enjoy the Alps. How did you determine that your 10 miler didnt have any drift ? 

    VT - looks like the recovery is going well. I have been suffering from ITB fro about 5 months now, how long have you had it and what have you done to manage it ?

    Andi - 1333 is a lot of incline to be going up. Well done, take it easy and keep stretching.

    BeDe - good stuff, looks like progress for you.

    I did a lunchtime 4 and a bit miles yesterday. The HR was back down to just under 71% following the previous days rise. I also went out in the evening with the good lady who has just started her C25K training. She is making good progress (after the initial moaning each time w go out saying its too hard and she cant do it !!) and we went offroad last night with some tricky terrain. She managed 2 x 1 miles out of a total of 2.5 so she is making good progress. I cycled in to work this morning (10 miles), will go for a little trot at lunchtime then ride home again. The weather seems to have picked up again and the forecast is good for the next few days. Happy running everyone  

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Carter well done on the biking and running - hope the run goes well this lunchtimeimage

    Chick nice easy 10 with hubby.  I'm off tomorrow to the Alps too - a 5 day trail running course in Kitzbuehelimage.  I expect my weekly elevation stats will go up by about ten-fold!image

    VT thanks - one day my marathon time will do all the miles some justice !  Glad you're back on it, and great news that you haven't lost any fitness.  Take it easy, though...

    Andi well done on the hilly 10m - hope the calf is ok todayimage

    BeDe good progressimage

    An easy 3m recovery for me Monday, then 12.67m medium run this morning. Now off to get packed!image

  • Seriously good running going on here.     Mine has been prerty rubbish for the last week.   The Hills around Bradwell seriously mashed my quads.   So I am going to have to do at least one hill rep session a week and one off road run a week.


    Cusm   bradwell takes starts in the village.    Goes into Castleton,   over hollins cross, ringing Roger,   thru Edale and Bamford.   Also along stannage edge.

    What course is that tek?


  • Any other ideas on how to get more hills in with keeping to the hadd way

  • Txs BeDe but must admit that I'm not very good a stretching and only tend to do it when I have pain somewhere. Sounds like your making steady progress on your road to recovery! keep it easy and I'm sure you'll be back pretty soon image

    Carter, yup it was quite an incline though probably one of the steepest 10 milers from home. Good to hear your HR was back down again and it sounds like Mrs Carterusm will be on your heels very soon!

    Teknik, I'm hoping to be able to call a 12.67 miler a 'medium' run soon - your hardcore! I took a look at the link you posted and it sounds like a great place to run - looking forward to some tales of the trails when you returnimage

    Spen, hope the quads are a bit better today? As for your Q, I'd love to hear an answer from somebody as wellimage It's nearly all hilly here and the 3 main routes from home have about a 200-400ft incline in the first 1.5 miles. I let my HR rise to 80% on the hilly bits then spend all the decline trying to get it back down to 70% again so it's not really conducive to 'proper' HADDing image As an incentive not to go over 80% I give myself a walking penalty when it does (unless I'm near the top of the hill) until it drops back down again - this seems to be helping me to run even slower and keep the HR down a bit though am sure I can power walk (much) faster than runimage

    Calf seems fine today thanks though had a similar 'niggle' in my right hamstring this afternoon image I've just been given a bottle of Arnica Ice and have heard good things about it - will keep you informed image 6 miles in the rain today (very refreshing) 11:43mm's and 72.34% of MAX so heading the right way image

  • Carter, my ITB stuff started about a month ago. Right now I'm mainly just doing a series of 3 exercises to put my hips into a neutral position (do this before every run which is a drag...they hurt like a b*tch and they take about 15 minutes to do). I also stretch the ITB and do some limited foam rolling (although I roll up near my hip as opposed to right on the ITB). Then on the weekend, I do a series of exercises to strengthen my hips/glutes http://strengthrunning.com/2011/02/the-itb-rehab-routine-video-demonstration/ . I've also been taking more rest days (which seems to allow me to get in some quality long runs again). In my case, I keep getting hurt when I ramp up my mileage and intensity for a marathon. Once I go above 60 miles per week I tend to have a significant injury (due theoretically to my out of alignment hips). I ran from September to July this year consistently with no injuries and then Bam. Same thing the year before. In both cases May and June were very mileage and subLT run heavy.


    Good luck with your injury. Anything work well for you? Has it gotten better over the 5 months or are you kind of stuck in ITB purgatory?

  • Oh yeah, nice 10 miler today in the heat.

  • VT - I feel like I'm a bit stuck at the moment, I've had my ITB since March. Same as you, as soon as I ramp up the mileage the pain comes back and I have to stop for a few days then build back up slowly. This time, however, I havent a race to train for so I should be able to increase my mileage slower and over a longer period of time, that's the theory anyway. I've got one of those rumble rollers and that is painful to the point of tears. I have got a few stretches and exercises to do as well but as I do find them tedious and dont always do them. On top of that I have got a pain at the front of my other knee which has the symptoms of runners knee. And since started to chain to a mid-foot strike I have been getting a bit of a pain under one of my feet, these symptoms are PF like. Apart from that I am fighting fit !!!

    I've been running 4/5 miles every day and I can get through these without much pain at all. I do 'sense' that the ITB is still there though. This weekend I have decided to go for a run up in the Peaks, this is to stop me getting completely bored with plodding the streets and also to see how the knee feels. From a HADD point of view, and bearing in mind I have only been follwoing this for a couple of weeks, is it ok if I do a run and not care about my hear rate ? There will be hills in my run so inevitably the HR will shoot skywards

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