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carter - running is not meant to be a chore Having said that the initial phase in HADD can get a bit that way - if you feel like a blast - do it, you'll probably feel better in the head (just do it carefully and if you have to stop to bring the HR down - so what?). I had 16 weeks of building up to my first 80% run but I was only doing 20-25 miles a week. Occasionally I went 'off piste' and felt better for it but quickly got back to the base training. The 80% runs are meant to kick in after a decent build up of base mileage and even then you have to be careful not to overdo it. I'm now back to where I was before that base phase after sufering a serious back injury, so for me I am plodding at the moment but I know having been through it once I can do it again. Doesn't stop me wanting to run faster, I just can't at the moment.
Stats - since starting HADD (Sept 2012) here are some of my stats for the total time I was in certain HR zones:
less than 70% - 32% of total time
70%-75% - 51% of total time
80%-85% - 13% of total time
85%-90% - 3% of total time
goodness knows where the other 1% went (probably tying my shoe laces!!)
So for all you HADDstat boffins 83% of my total running has been below 75%
VT, glad to hear it was a 'nice' 10 Miler and all this talk of ITB meant I got a sharp pain in my knee today - hope they are just sympathy pains for you and Carter
BeDe, glad to see I'm not alone with my collection of stats Looks like your doing a good job of keeping the HR down. Am not sure I could easily get the time in each zone easily from my Garmin
The below chart shows my total mileage since I started running in July 2012. I sort of started HADDing in Feb this year but used WHR rather than MHR and switched to MHR in July
Another 6 miles today along the same route as Yesterday, it was a little warmer and did it at the same pace (11:43mm) and my AHR was down a tad from 72.34 to 71.81 so still heading (or should that be HADDing) in the right direction Today's run took me passed 100 miles for the month so well on target to beat 123 miles (my previous best).
Tour of skiddaw for me this weekend so no hadding.
ahh - Skiddaw from Bassenthwaite - great walk in the winter Spen - r u running it? Hope so.
Andi - keep up the good work - may be up in Oban sometime in the next few months - will keep you informed, Could do a run together
spen, good luck with the 'tour'. I've only driven round there and had a couple of police escorts around Keswick. Apparently 22 smart roadsters driving around the lakes caused a bit of a stir (aka a 'tube' of Smarties).
Bede, even coming back from injury am sure you'll have to slow down to run with me but yup, give me a shout when your there and I can nip on the Ferry (unless you fance a run on Mull)
What you describe is so similar. Over the past few months (since ramping up mileage and intensity) I have developed issues with my left leg (first PF like symptoms, then ultimately ITBS) and also with my right leg (Achilles issues). Since I have been strengthening my hips, the PF stuff and the Achilles issues have largely subsided and the ITB is getting better each week. I wonder if you have weakness in your hips/glutes too? I saw an article the other day that said many of us have week hips/glutes and that when mileage goes up it is just a matter of time before we get an overuse injury in some other part of the legs/feet that try to compensate. The two most common issues were ITBS and Achilles tendonitis.
I also hate (really, really hate) doing the PT exercises. Am supposed to do them before each run. They hurt like a mother and they take me about 15 minutes just to do them. Very time consuming when you have limited time to get out for a run of an hour or more.
Got a nice 8 miler in today (key word nice again).
I am attempting to run skidaw. How much I don't know
VT - would be interested in any hip strengthening info/exercises you have. When I was putting in increased mileage last year in prep for a March half, had a bit of Achilles trouble - didn't really flare up and cause me a problem. I now do glute stretches as much as I can but not really hips.
Andi - really, you have not seen me run!!
BeDe – when I said ‘bored’ what I actually meant was running along the roads is not as pleasurable as running on trails. Most of the time running on the road is ok but I’m finding during HADD training I need to concentrate on my pace to make sure im in the right zone so there is no time for it to feel like a chore ! In my 2 weeks of HADDing I have spent all of my time between 70.3% and 72.57% J
Andi – if you wanted to get the time spent in each zone you could get it from your spreadsheet rather than directly from Garmin ? Well done on the 100 miles for this month, sounds like a new record is on the way for August. I worked in Glasgow a few years ago and wandered over to Oban a couple of times. It was before my running days but it is certainly a lovely area for running.
VT - I don’t do any hip or glute exercises to be honest and it seems that before too long I will be spending more time on exercises and stretching than I do on running !
More easy running for me this week. My stats show that my average hear rate for the last 2 weeks is the same at 126 but my average pace has come down from 9:30 to 9:13. Early days but promising.
So, do I need to be aware of ‘drifting’ yet ? Bearing in mind I’m only running up to 5 miles each run due to the ITB, and that I have only been HADDing for 2 weeks, will drifting be relevant in such a short run ? My understanding of drifting is that if I run for say 10 miles my heart rate and pace should not go up or down too much during the run i.e. my heart rate and pace for mile 10 should be the same as for mile 1. Is that about right ?
Just a quick post from the Alps...
Carter don't worry about drift yet - I take about 4 miles before my HR stops rising anyway - it's on the long runs you need to watch it. Nice progress
Andi this will make you smile - 7.5m run up and down a mountain yesterday, 683m climb and descent...
1) 1m - 12:02(12:02/m) 139 (65%)2) 1m - 10:17(10:17/m) 138 (65%)3) 1m - 13:57(13:57/m) 154 (72%)4) 1m - 18:59(18:59/m) 170 (80%)5) 1m - 16:10(16:10/m) 164 (77%)6) 1m - 11:41(11:41/m) 144 (67%)7) 1m - 14:00(14:00/m) 139 (65%)8) 0.58m - 5:30(9:27/m) 166 (78%)
HR/pace stats thus ruined for the month, and I've got 2 more days of this...
Guys, lets stop with this ITB thing, I spent most of my run today with pains in both knees - I blame you!
VT, keep the 'nice' runs coming - that's what it's all about
Lol BeDe but after today's 'run' I make a slow walker
Txs Carter but 'my' spreadsheet doesn't have splits in it (looks pretty but quite basic). I've never run over in Oban but there are some looong hills to get out of there! Well done on running faster at the same HR If it's the HADDing or not it's a fine result.
Yup, 'drift' is when the HR 'drifts' up whilst maintaining the same pace (or vice versa). Sometimes I wonder if HADDing is the thing for me with all these hills - My HR doesn't drift it sprints lol. Teknik probably put it better
Teknik, lol but WOW! that will stop me whinging about my 'inlines' I'm not sure how much benefit you'll get from just a few runs like that but am sure if you come away uninjured there will be some extra strength gained
Got my second ever 20 miler in today but things went wrong starting last night, no proper dinner, too much booze and a late night - not the way to prepare My feet ached, knees played up and bloodied my t-shirt again (HRM 'scar').
When I stopped to adjust the HRM my HR was 80% and could see my heart pumping away and bulging out of my chest (freaky scary). Ened up at 20.03 miles in 4:16 almost a full minute/miles slower than my first 20 miler and HR was up to 74.47%
And to cap it off I see Teknik 'climbed' 30 metres further than me in just 7.5 miles
Oh, and top tip for the day DON'T take an Epsom Salt bath if you have a 3 inch open wound on your chest!
Andi - tuff stuff. I guess keeping the HR down is difficult for you with those hills - I'm assuming you just end up taking the average for the run rather than individual miles. What HR monitor causes you so much pain?? I use a 'Geonaute' after having data issues with the Garmin (see earlier posts around Dec/Jan) - but chest wounds sound a bit drastic!!.
Starting to increase mileage slightly - I reckon another month and I'll be up to (and I know this sounds silly, but for those who know why it will be a milestone for me) about 15 miles (thats a week not a run!!), I'm starting to throw a 75% run in one day a week now. Hopefully by November I'll be back to about 25 miles pw - then I'll re-assess and hopefull get to a steady 30mpw
Tek - altitude training!!!
Andi well done on the 20 miler - a late night with booze explains the result. Strap some surgical tape on the lumpy bit of the HR strap! Ouch, ouch...
Bede good going
Another slog up the mountain yesterday, most of it walking rather than "running", then I chickened out of following the guys along the mountain ridge when vertigo hit me. 600m descent in 5m downhill on the gravel path hurt like hell, so I was happy the rest of the group kindly joined me for 11m along the valley this morning. Back to flat Essex tomorrow...
Tek - sounds fun though. My vertigo gets worse the older I get - used to do all sorts of silly stuff in my youth that I couldn't do now! (Don't we all?). Apologies to all young people on this thread - carry on
BeDe, yup, the hills are a problem for HADDing (Tek will back me up now am sure). I do try to keep individual miles down but let it creep (nay run up) on the hillier sections. eg, mile 4 today was a 280ft decent and 77ft ascent I turned round for mile 5. Mile 4 was run at 68% and mile 5 @ 76% with the 8 miles avg of 70.45% so yes I can't run at (say) 70% for a full run
I have a Garmin and Pola strap and both cause the same issues on longer runs. Tek, I think it was you that suggested surgical tape last time this happened - I'll listen to your advice this time
As for your mileage BeDe your doing things properly and this way you should be able to increase to your 30 miles without further injury
Tek, txs, it's hard to get out of the Fri/Sat drinking habit (and lets not talk about smoking!). I find it can be a lot tougher on downhill sections though have never done 600m in 5 miles!!! As BeDe says thats altitude training I did do 11 miles along the Rhone earlier this year, it was hot, flat, straight and boring as hell lol.
Weekly stats are, 50.45 miles in 10:18:58, 12:16mm's and 72% AHR - I made a conscious effort to slow down so I could run further without injury.
So, todays easy 8 miler brought a couple of little personal 'records' with it. It took me to my first 50 miles in a week, furthest distance in a Month 130.24, first month running for longer than 24 hours, and the lowest HR avg thus far in a month of 73.4% (so lots of work needed there still).
Oooh, it's gone quiet here, hope everybody is fine?
A couple of days ago I started reading a letsrun thread between HADD and Antonio Cabral, its a bit long winded but think it's a good read. Anybody else read it? and thoughts?
I've not read it all (yet) but was interested to read that HADD can/does switch to pace based training for distances under HM and Intervals.
I've come to the conclusion (before reading the thread) that my Marathon training has been a bit 'ad hoc' and whilst I have done enough to (hopefully) go sub 5 hours in my first Marathon that after recovery in October I'm going to go full on with HADDing during the Autumn/Winter and stop worrying about pace. In fact, I'll not be having a pace screen on the Garmin whilst running.
Day off yesterday as I felt tired and 6 miles today @ 70.21% of MAX averaging 12:11mm's. Thats 55 seconds slower than planned MP and should have been doing this months ago
Still here - yep I read that a while ago, not so easy reading as the HADD doc but interesting all the same.
Have done some comparisons from when I first started HADDing in Sept 2012 and now. I wanted to see just how much I had lost with 3 months out (bearing in mind that I started the HADD training with more fitness than my current level) but still shows a drop in performance due to the lack of (i.e. none!) training this summer. Route is the same so I'm comparing like for like (don't know about the weather) and although it is only a 'single run' comparison I think the stats are interesting (because I would - ha) Top of the chart is my Av% MaxHR and below is the pace comparison. Clearly the AvHr is higher and my pace is slower (won't embarrass myself with figures) showing a related drop in fitness.
I've not read it all yet and yes, it can get wordy sometimes but enjoyed reading more about 'phase 2' and think HADD gets a bit miffed by being called the guy that just gets you to run slowly
hehe, I've got a few graphs where the pace time is missing too
Quite pleased with this afternoons run and managed to keep my MHR below 80% for the first time! (78.72%). I think that helped get my AHR down to 69.68% and still managed the 6.22 miles just 26 seconds/mile slower than pMP.
Andi well done on last week's stats, and well done on yesterday's run - good to see the HR is more controllable. I got excited about Phase II, but then realised that for a fast-twitcher doing a marathon, Phase II is "carry on with Phase I" ...
BeDe nice geeky graphs
I got back home Monday, did a 3m recovery, MLR of 15m on Tues, 9m subLT Weds (7:49mm), then a weary MLR of 12m this morning. Someone on Fetch has organised a 1 mile timed event on a local track for Saturday, and I'm looking forward to that - not run a mile race for 34 years !!
Hope everyone is ok....VT / Carter?
Tek, good mileage thus far and good luck for the mile on Saturday, will be a good way to let loose and blow the cobwebs away
Hehe, I shouldn't post good days cos a bad one is sure to follow! The heavens opened as I left for my 8 miler today and wind was gusting up to 35mph. The first 1.5 miles is mainly up hill and was shocked to see my AHR was 77% by then! Upset I carried on and rather than run an easy 8 miles decided to try and get 4 miles at (planned) MP in. I made it (11:13mm V 11:16mm) and turned what was a poor session into a decent one, the final mile was 8:56 - faster than my (current) 5k pace. AHR was up to 76.6% but guess it's a taste for when I finally try to run faster
Been abscent for a bit but looks like everyones doing great stuff!
Andy: Congrats on your half and the progress too, looks like taht last run was a 'blow out the cobwebs' session!
I seemed to be doing OK, until I started those damn Tempo runs as per my plan basically they were 1.5 mile warmups, the either 4, 6 or 8 miles at my tempo speed then 1.5 mile cool down/fall over. I did supprise my self a bit with them, they were meant to be 10mm but one was a fair bit under that; I did crawl home after that one tho. HR was up to 80-83% on the correct pace, but they have had a bad effect. I now seem to struggle to keep pace down, not only on my mid weekers, but long run too. LIke yesterday, I did 16.75 miles, was supposed to be 12:30-13mm keeping HR to 140 (75%) average, but spent the first 7 or 8 at 11-11:30mm which pretty much killed the second half... averaging 146HR (78.5%) but on the bigger hills, HR max was 160+ (86%) I also made the mistake of doing a slightly different route which takes in the hillier side of the forest, and introduces 'mile anda half hill', which has 2 very steep bits, the rest just being steep and an up'n'over hilly section which seems to go on for ever!
Having said that, I did a 22 last week with average 140HR so perhaps not all is lost? It just seems like it. I also feel that if I did this on a flat run, I would probably be sub135 for the same effort.
I'm not really sure what to do about it, apart from the obvious of slow down .... I am tempted to drop all the Tempo sessions until Beachy, and just try to focus on easy and long sessions for the next month. What do you think?
CR, sounds like your making good progress but agree, those darn hills don't lend themselves to HADDing
22 miles @140AHR (74-5%?) sounds good so yup, maybe we all get those ups and downs (excuse the pun).
After my first 50 mile week last week was down to 20 this week! No runs at the weekend as my back and right glute are painful and, we have 45mph wind! Am now a bit worried as I just have 5 more days Mara Training (off to London next weekend for a black tie dinner) then taper starts (will have lots of Q's next week for you).
Monthly stats, 150.62 miles in 01:05:23:45 averaging 11:43mm's (27 secs slower than pMP) @72.87%AHR. Ascent was 5654 metres, more than 800 metres higher than Mont Bank massif (note for Teknik and other Alps runners lol).
Cheesy I think you need to find a flat route along the valley for those subLTs. Well done on the 22m - nice going
Andi LoL. I have a few Highland friends who suffered in the wind in races this weekend. Hope the niggles ease soon. Great stats for the month - and yes, even with my Alpine adventure, your monthly climb beat mine by at least 1000m !
I ran a progressive 20 miler yesterday: 4 blocks of 5 miles - started off at MP + 15% (avg 65%), then MP +10% (70%), then MP +5% (75% drifting to 76%), and ending with an uphill 5m at MP (77 / 81 / 79 / 85 dropping to 84% as I crowned the hill) - very happy that "MP" after 15 miles wasn't a disaster on the HR front.
BeDe how are you?
I haven't done any running in the last week at all and as such have not logged on here but it's good to see that there is still some great running taking place. I was off work for the week and we just had things to do at home, day trips etc so I didnt really give running much of a thought at all. I am feeling fit and raring to go again today so hopefully the break will have done me some good and rested the knee too. On the down sound I have been eating and drinking way too much and am feeling very sluggish at the moment so the first couple of days will be tricky while I get back into the swing of things. It will be interesting to see the HR during today's run following all the scoffing I've done.
Hope everyone is ok and things are going well.
Back to work and way too busy catching up with millions of mails and other things I should have done . Apologies for not reading back yet.
Anyway ... training has been progressing despite holidays etc. I squeezed in my 2nd 20.3 miler on Sunday 18th, just before departing on a 5-6 hour drive. That went okay but I took 3 days off afterwards to fully recover. Then, after a few shorter runs I did a slow and hilly 19.5M LSR on Sunday 25th (supposed to be 20 but miscalculated)... then 5 more shorter runs ... before a big 22.3 mile run yesterday. I need some more sub-LTs though!!! The only "effort" in all this time was a 20:17 parkrun on Saturday ... that was flat out as my lad over-took me with 300m to go - I tried to hang on and eventually clawed him back in the final 50-100m - haven't been so exhausted ina while! As a result, the 22.3 miler yesterday was a nightmare (well from 19 miles onwards) as I hit the wall. I had not taken in enough calories the day before ... we were visiting friends, so tricky to replenish etc. Felt drained yesterday after the run and will take today off. But, I'm sure it will do me some good once I'm recovered and it's nice to have 4 x 20 milers in the bag with 7 weeks to go. Next weekend will be a shorter run as I have a HM on 15th which I'd like to go full tilt at!
Dr.Dan - good work there, dont forget to get plenty of rest and recovery too.
My first run in over a week was 4.35 miles @ 09:08 which is 70.3% of my MHR. It felt good to be back out there again
lol, txs Teknik Really like your 20 miles run method and nice stats - that's a mother of hills at more than 4 miles long (did you have the pleasure of going down it at the start of the run?).
Carter, WB after your binge break lol Sounds like the rest did you good for your first run in a while.
Dr Dan, with the volume of mail I'd get whilst away my out of office message told senders that on my return I'd delete all incomming mail and for them to resend the mail when I got back - not the most buisinesslike thing to do but was fun and seemed to work
Sounds like you have been busy training but, shouldn't you give your lad a break? very soon you won't have the finishing speed to beat him, I say give in graciously now lol
Hard 10 miler tonight and it started as I went out of the door, HR was up to 51% before I started running and the first mile (into the wind) was 75% average. By mile 3 average HR was 80%! and pace was about 30 secs/mile slower than MP. The rain was so heavy my glasses ended up in my pocket so ran 'nekid' and the only redeeming feature of the run was my last 3 miles were all faster than pMP (4, 43 & 85 secs faster). 78% average for the run.
Oh, you'll laugh at this, the rain was hard, road flooded in parts and was often standing on the verge to let cars past (I wasn't going to hop onto a wet verge in this rain/wind in front of a car). Anyway, much of the grass was long and I kept on rubbing my legs on what looked like cuckoo spit (remember that?)
At about mile 8 I stopped to let the local bus past and noticed the 'cuckoo spit' back again only it was a long line going up my leg.
Upshot is I need to get my washing machine looked at as my nice clean shorts were still full of washing powder and they had been bubbling away for 90 minutes! Maybe drivers thought I was doing my washing lol
Andi - at least you had nice clean shorts
I've had my first morning run today where I have been measuring my heart rate. My average heart rate for this run was slightly higher for my average pace compared to previous runs that have been later in the day. Can the time of day make any difference to your heart rate during a run ?