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Sub 2:45 FLM 2006
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With london's fast 3rd mile I think such a big negative split is unrealistic but I would still recommend planning to go through half way at over half of target time (eg 1.23 / 1.22). You really need your strength in the closing 10k, and I think a steady start followed by a lot of overtaking is the best way to go through the 20m point feeling strong and upbeat.
I won't run FLM in 2006 (son's birthday), but may well find another spring marathon so I can join in the training process. Good luck to you all.
Anyway it got me thinking about hills and strengthening. Most of my runs back here in W.London are completely flat being along the river or canal, with the odd trip down to the undulations of Richmond Park for a change of scene.
Could this be holding back the training? Of course you can up the speed to increase intensity but I'm concerned that with all those miles, some ought to incorporate something other than just speed variation to make the most of the training time.
I was in Cornwall last week and, on the runs of 12 miles or so that I did across Bodmin Moors, I accumulated something like 2,000ft of climbing. Brilliant!
BR, in his later writings, Lydiard placed less emphasis on the hill training phase, as it did tend to cause injury (propably the downhill bits of running!). I live in the flatlands of Lincolnshire - the steepest hill I run up is out of the pedestrian subway under the A17. My ability to cope with hills in races is determined by how fit I am (miles and pace of miles run) rather than how much hill work I do. However I think the major benefit of hill training is the ability to stimulate VO2max without having to run injury inducingly fast in training
If I neglect hill running, I find that I get hamstring/piriformis/sciatic problems due to compensating for weak gluteals (in particular).
Apart from that, you can't beat the enjoyment of the view you get after running up a decent hill!
With reference to the injury risks, I try and find routes that take me up the steep side of a slope and down a longer, more gentle slope. I think that running down gentle slopes is actually also good for you. The Lydiard hill circuits were designed that way, as I understand it.
THUD!
So the argument `how can you tackle hills in a race if you haven't practised them in training' is bunkum?
Pantman, who you mention, has taken to training on a .75 mile hill to strengthen his legs and to create higher HR training without running `injury inducing fast'.
Personally I love hills and have always been very strong on them. The hillier the race the better I do compared to rivals.
RB - Hadd does cover the aspects you mention, but as you say his article is focused on improving aerobic endurance.
From the earlier part of this discussion, I agree that the predictive time charts don't suit all. My performance at longer distances has always tended to outperform the estimates based on the mid-distances (or perhaps I just never did enough speed work before). For the record, taken 8-9% off last years PB's for 5k-1/2M this year hence the 2:45 goal):-
5k 16:29 Jun 2005
5M 28:33 May 2005
10k 34:28 Jun 2005
10M 58:52 Apr 2005
1/2 1:18:24 Apr 2005
M 2:57:30 Oct 2004
I just ran a new 5000m pb on Sunday of 16:38 - still 9 secs behind you. However my other times are quicker. Looks like you have better shorter distance times.
A brief update from me!
I managed to get round the Lancaster Half in 1'20"27 in *very* hot conditions a couple of weeks ago. I then had my summer holiday (camping for four days in Surrey) and came back with a cold. So, I imagine that by the time I get back to full health I'll have not run for more than a week.
I'm not worried by this in the slightest though 8o). I think that I was at least two minutes slower at Lancaster than I would have been with easier conditions so I'm still hopeful that if I get one week of proper training (including a tempo run and a long run) and then a week of tapering I'll still be able to get 1'18'xx at Bristol on the 2nd October.
However, several things have come up in my personal life that are giving me second thoughts about doing London '06. I don't know how they will play out yet so I want to leave my application (I have GFA) as long as possible. Does anyone remember when the deadline is?
Dave
8o)
BR - good to catch up again (not that I got anywhere near catching you at Abingdon last year!). Congrats on the PB. Ref my times - my only 5M was early season before I'd done any 5/10k's so was a bit conservative on pace, 10k's were on an undulating course - had back problems and ran badly on the only flat course race, 10M early season - not run one since the PB, 1/2M back problem at MK from 9 miles. Realistically without the back issues and on a good day/course I'd anticipate clocking around 27:30/34:00/57:00/1:17 respectively. I guess time will tell.
I've not been doing any speed work for a while, unless you count descents on a fell run of course, so I'm just thinking about what to do prior to a 5k next wednesday and Cardiff Half on the 9th October for a bit of a sharpener. The 5k isn't very important in the scheme of things but I'd like to get near the 17:00 mark.
Perhaps some longer intervals tonight and the other wednesdays? I had thought of a simple 1000, 2000, 1000 pyramid at 5k pace for the 1000 and 10k for the 2000, along with 400m recoveries. Then some half-marathon pace tempo work on Fridays which would be just under LT. (Sundays are the long run and other day are recovery or steady pace)
Thoughts/opinions welcome
However on the other hand, the common advice is to e.g. do your longest run 3 weeks before a marathon as any closer will be ineffective and possibly even damaging.
It may be more the case that improvements to different systems take different lengths of time. Base work, LT work, VO2 max stuff, strength, etc are working on different things or different combinations of underlying biological/physiological mechanisms.
There is plenty of academic evidence at pponline.co.uk that short term speed work can improve things - perhaps it is really just re-aligning your Tim Noakes style "Central Governer" to allow the body to work harder?
Guv...
Thus 5 days before the 5000m race I did 5000m worth of alternating 200/200s in 39-40 and 54-55secs.
p.s. might try to come along to the Barnsleyrunner London drinks on the 28th!
BR
That raises an interesting point I think. What's the difference between a "training effect" and getting "your legs used to the required pace"? Do you think there is a difference between training, practising and learning (in the physical sense)? I play the piano and I find that I can "learn" a piece by "practising" it for an hour. Presumably there's no "training" effect - that's a more long-term thing. Do you think that the faster running you might do a few days before a race is like that - something to do with brain/body co-ordination?
Brain / body co-ordination is a good way of putting it.
And it paid off in a new PB of 16:56 :-)
25 seconds off my previous!
Now to do the hard bit and up the training to break 2-45.
Just thought I'd say "Hello". Some of you may remember me from last year's 2.45 thread - my attempt last year ended up with a 2.52 in Copenhagen after missing London because of a cold. Everything went very wrong over the summer with a family disaster but I'm now back running for the first time in a few months. Not sure yet if I'm going to concentrate on London next year or just use it to get a qualifying time for Comrades but either way I'll be there. I'm entered for the Cabbage Patch 10 in October but not expecting anything too stellar given my current state of lardiness. Isn't it amazing how rubbish you get with a couple of months of junk food and no exercise?
4 x 1k rep session done on my own, 3:05, 3:03, 2:59 and 3:08, with 5 mins rest, fairly pleased as have a cold and have been training fairly hard all week.
Times atm are: 3k 9:20, 5k 16:33, 10k 34:24, 10 miles 60:42 ( not run in almost a year and since then cutting over 2 mins off my 10k time).
Seriously though, don't neglect your speedwork whilst your body's still young enough to absorb it without doing any biomechanical damage.
Nylarthotep, good to see one of the old guard alive and posting. Are you pleased with the 2:52, sounds pretty nippy to me. Like yourself the summers running has been a bit of a non event. However I'm back running, albeit not very quickly, so my current target is the Bishops Stortfort 10M (hope you can give us a cheer Bryn!) in November, as it incorporated the Vets championships. Good luck in Cabbage Patch, but running Comrades!!!! (maniac). Anyway keep posting and stay fit.
My speedwork will still be ticking over though, Jon Brown has apparently said that to be a succesful marathoner you need to be capable of running a 3:40 1500m so next season might be devoted to running my best possible 1500. But once I'm at uni then I'll be looking at definitely running a marathon and doing my best to go for MikeBs BUSA title.
I'll definitely give you a cheer in the Stortford 10, unless we're head to head with 100m left, I'm running too!