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HADD Training Method
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i look at Malcs on the asics journey thread. He is clearly capable of much better that 3:30 but random stuff on the day plus heat meant he had to sell for just slightly sub 3:30.
I was pacing/training for 3:30 and really didn't have any room for error. all things considered I had a good day but still didn't quite make it.
I wonder if some of this is just luck and whether it's your day or not. Clearly there are things we can plan for but just dont have control over. I guess the more races you run the less random this gets.
Dr. Dan, I'm not sure what to say about your race result. As you point out, the miles were in the bank and the paces were spot on for a sub 3:30 (I think sub 3:25). Chick makes a good point about running without the HR monitor (e.g. is the mind so fragile that seeing high numbers leads to a mental letdown that can't be overcome on race day?) but agree that in likelihood, you would have hit the wall earlier if you had pushed more. Did the other P&D folks run watching their HR? Did most of them pay attention to HR during training? Just curious. I also think Nayan has a valid point that we train for 4 months (really more than that) for a 1 day performance. Could just be the day in some cases.
Tek, you run super high mileage schedules. And you seem durable through all the miles and tempos, etc. Do you feel that you stay fresh under those demanding conditions week in and week out? I've followed your training for a while now and sometimes I wonder if you perhaps do too much and you body can't truly absorb all the training? I ask as in this marathon buildup, I've had several periods where I'm simply run down and feel like I have lost fitness (only to see if roaring back after taking things down a few notches for a week or so). So hard to know the proper balance.
Today I ran a subLT (Chick, we had an ice storm last night but it melted away by days end). Sunday I felt my HR was high due to the heat, but perhaps due to not being fully recovered. Today my HR was a bit high, but only by a few beats (and it was cold out). I ran 12 w/10 at subLT. 1st 5 miles into wind and slightly uphill and last 5 back over same ground. Overall ran 7:06 m/m and felt reasonably good. Was definitely tired at the end. I'm finding that when I run a 20-22M run, it takes a while to get full energy back for a hard run like this. My calf got a little tight near the end, but after icing it all seems OK. Hate living run to run like this...
VT another great subLT, glad the calf is ok.
I definitely overdid it, so lesson learned. But I was rambling, my point to Dr Dan was that maybe, as an FT type, he could try sticking to pure Hadd phase I and avoid P&D for a change:
Maybe the emphasis on mara pace/HR will work better than the faster stuff?
hey is subLT pace the same as marathon goal pace? or is taht only true as the ultimate goal
Interesting debate about racing to pace or HR, I followed P&D for my marathon this spring, and even though I wasn't Hadding, I kept my easy runs around the 70-75% rate, what I did notice throughout the training block that my HR would drift quite considerably after 2hrs, however during the marathon itself it stayed fairly flat for the duration (3:50) @ 87%, the pace did drop in the last 6 miles, I might have been a little aggressive with my pacing from the start, but aerobically I felt fine it was the legs wouldn't play ball.
I'm a little puzzled I would have expected it to drift just like it does during a training run, could it be I'm not as conditioned in the lower HR zone?
see print on connect link http://connect.garmin.com/activity/474840473
VT - 7:06 is a nice subLT pace!
Tek - thanks!
I really don't think the problem was the training ... it was a really good 4 months and all the indicators were good. I was in good shape. In fact, my sub-LT pace after P&D (this was my first time with P&D) was better than it had been after pure Hadd. My 2011 PB came off Hadd but I was much faster at shorter distances at the time.
Perhaps I need to look back and see where I'm peaking and make sure I time that better for race day. In the marathon I got to 20 miles in 2:39:45. But 5 weeks before the marathon, I ran 20.4 miles in 2:39:37 ... only that was at 6am and on my own and at the end of 200+ miles in the previous 4 weeks. I did 5.1 miles as a warm up at 8:40/mi ... and then 3 x 5.1 miles at 7:34/m (77.7% maxHR), 7:31/m (80% maxHR) and 7:33/m (81.7% maxHR). I fueled during the MP section as if race day and felt strong at the end ... I probably could have bagged a sub-3:30 that day had I set out to cover 26.2 at 8/m.
I'm not sure what to do next. Plan was to spend the rest of this year on 5K and 10K. I should probably stick with that but this marathon monkey on my back is bugging me. My son suggested I should recover from London and then go and do 105.5 laps of the local track at 8/m, just so I can move on.
Anyway ... Leeds half marathon is next on April 11th ... only 13.1 ... but with hills.
5 miles easy today. First mile at recovery pace (6min/km) and HR came in at 110- very wierd, was expecting 125-130.
took the pace up to 5:30/km for the rest and HR remained pretty flat at about 119. Either recovery has turned into another HADD wtf? moment or this heartstrap is bollixed.
I suspect the latter
Dr Dan
What was your taper like if I may ask? I had to taper more severly than I was supposed to due to injury - I just read that this can leave you sluggish on race day...
Stewart - difficult to say, but my guess is the pace was dropping a little so that probably kept it flat
Dr Dan that may well be the key - my subLTs were getting worse in the last 4 weeks before Frankfurt, so early peaking may well be the issue for me too. Treat yourself to those missing 7 seconds at the Leeds Half !
Nayan that subLT / MP connection is the subject of some debate. The best answer for me was from Paul on the Fetch Hadd thread:
"My approach is that my sub-LT 10-milers just gradually 'evolve' in to MP 10-milers. I start them off in the base building phase at about 80% maxHR, and by the end of the specific marathon training phase they're at about 85% maxHR.
I probably improve by 50-60sec/mile during that process. About half is probably due to using more bpm, and about half due to improving fitness.
The pace that I see for that 85% is then pretty much my goal race pace. By the time the kitchen sink goes in then race HR average might then become 86-87. But it will have sat at 84-85 for much of the race."
I have never managed to flat-line for 10 miles above 83%, so I tend to stick with my average subLT at 83% as "MP". Or I chicken out and add 15 seconds to it....lol
7.8m easy for me this morning. Another subLT tomorrow...
in Hadd's orginal document he talks about how you might start out finding 170bpm pace (relative to a max of 193) uncomfortable and hard to sustain for more than 5k, but eventually you get to the point where you are indeed comfortable running that hard for a lot longer. POssibly even for the entire marathon.
I suppose this is a combination of your pain tolerance improving as well as your ability to clear lactate and remain aerobic. Im also guessing that your body builds up more of the enzymes needed to metabolise both glycogen and fat efficiently. Maybe this good stuff is burned away by any sustained maximal effort which leaves your blood very acidic - hence the need to recover and build up aerobic base having 'used' it in a race
Stewart - that plateau HR plot is certainly unusual for 26.2. Looks like a 10K plot.
Nayan - I followed the P&D 55/18 3 week taper.
Tek - nowhere near sub-90 ... and especially on the Leeds' hills!
I'm taking a slow and relaxed build up to my subLTs this time - starting with an 80% lid, I'm progressing through 2 x 3.5m, 2 x 4m, 6m, 7m, 2 x 5m, 2 x 6m, 8m and then the full 10m.
I did the 6m this morning - came out at 8:05mm, but there was some drift over 80% so I'll have to slow the next one down.
Have a nice long weekend all !
Some interesting discussion going on here...need more time to catch up and comment.
I've kind of been in a funk the past 10 days or so (just have felt tired, sore, etc). After my Wed subLT (which felt taxing) I've surprisingly bounced back. Thurs did 9M @ 8:15m/m HR ave 141 (71%), then Friday got my long run in early (16M, 8:04, 142!), and today did a 6 mile recovery run. Felt like superman on each of these runs. Strange, but my toothpaste tube has been squeezed from the bottom up. My low effort runs (68-70%) have improved by about 30 seconds per mile. I need to look at my data more, but seems my paces are being pushed together from low to high effort. The other really great news is my calf has been completely fine (normal?) since the twinge on Wed.
I'm hopeful that this means I'm still on my way to peaking. I was starting to worry I'd peaked too early.
Signed up a for 5 mile race Monday. We'll see if I left any gas in the tank...
Maybe the post marathon recovery cycle is where your body comes back with a big gain eh.
1hr at 73% today. (10.5km) Zero drift. Back to pre marathon form though volumes still low.
Feeling pretty good, but still not thinking about and subLT or speed work for a week or two yet.
Hi folks, tis still me with a 'new' username and a clue to my latest incarnation
DD, sorry it's late, an epic review - I was with you all the way and could almost feel how you thought when Mo flew past
Glad to hear you met some old and new faces as well - impressive considering the amount of runners.
Like VT I must read back a bit and take stuff in
It's now 2 weeks since Lochaber and have run 40 miles. My stupid attempt at a HADD test last week was...well...stupid and didn't complete it so just easy miles though managed a whopping 2.5 barefoot miles in there.
I had(d) a 21 week Marathon plan written for Loch Ness in September starting early May but now thinking I'll continue with easy miles for another couple of months and just add in a subLT session (maybe) June then some marathon paced running during my LSR but will see how things go.
19:55 in today's parkrun ... think I've recovered!
VT those are some super low HR stats! Good luck for the race tomorrow
CM quick recovery!
Andi good thinking
Dr Dan nice parkrun
Chick best of luck for tomorrow
First week back on Hadd for me - 55.3m in 8h08, avg. pace 8:50mm and avg.HR 70%max, including 2 mini-subLTs at 80%.
Nice 5k there dr Dan
DD, nice race! Fast!! Out of curiosity, how have you felt since the race? Did you get major DOMS? Has your HR been high vs pace on your recovery runs? Interested to see how it has gone. Your 5K suggests you are in a good place.
Chick, good luck tomorrow!!!!!!! I am nearby and the weather looks to be perfect for tomorrow. I'll be running a 5 miler so will send some speedy vibes over the river to you!
So Our phones were out of juice for a while and we needed to run around and buy new cables. Thought this was the chance to go and get a fancy new Garmin but the new models are a bit too gimmicky for me so I only got a charging clip.... Hm, it seemed the right idea at the time
Anyway, suffering from the worst ever jetlag which means I only sleep 2or3 hours per night and feel like a zombie.... Boston is brilliant though. Very beautiful and we did wayyy too much running around. I kind of messed up the carb loading as well.
Right now I'm 99% for fun running tomorrow because the atmosphere is soo incredible that I have a feeling I'll miss out on the best experience of my life by going out hard and dying at mile 16 or earlier ..... There's always another marathon nearer home but there's is only this one very poignant Boston after the atrocities of last year .....
Blimey, Dr D, that's plenty fast. No running for me in the last few days. I feel fat and slow, especially compared to the whippets that seem to be everywhere.
Go Chick! Really excited for you. Go go gooooooooooo!
VT - I had pretty harsh DOMS in my quads Monday and even more on Tuesday ... going down stairs was a problem! It started to subside Wednesday and I felt okay Thurs & Fri. So on Sat I decided to do the parkrun as two of my kids were keen. I had no plans to go for it but felt good in warm up ... so thought why not!. I tried to stay with my son (course PB 19:59) but couldn't hack it ... but the splits were looking good and I felt great. Well I felt pretty terrible but it was a 5K!
At 4K I was on 15:50 so, despite the uphill final 1K, I went for it.
Anyway, the boy bagged a 41 s PB at that parkrun, with 19:18, so that explains why I couldn't catch him . Still beat him on WAVA though!
Tek - I'm on similar program (apart from the mileage - still building that).
Mainly HADD with some mini sub LT's thrown in. Most enjoyable - don't have to think ot look at what I'm doing every day because I know it's all 70%-75% with a little subLT thrown in now and then. Sounds a bit wishy, washy but I have no races planned yet - seems to be working so why change
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Chick - enjoy. Hopefully as I'm writing this you are still in the land of nod and will feel great for the race
Dr.D - sounds like your ready for another challenge then
Andi - like Tek says - sensible (apart from the barefoot stuff - ha)
VT - good post about the times being pushed together. Would like to hear more on that when you've looked at the data - examples perhaps? Might give us some inspiration
When is your race again?
Go Chick! as you say, the occasion will mean more than the time today so just soak it all in
Tek, BeDe, txs am going to bumble along for a few more weeks and BeDe, up to half a mile barefoot now but the ickle stones are the things that really get me!
VT how did the race go?
Bede that's the best thing about Hadd - month on month improvements, with the best results coming when you don't have the pressure of a race!
Dr Dan congrats to junior
Andi I can't handle running without my lace-up sofas
Just a short 4m recovery for me - really warm here.
Chick went through the first 5k in 23:29 (3h18 pace)...
Another 10k at 73% 9 mm on Sunday. Ready to step volume up this week.
Good run CM
Chick reached the Half in 1:46:46...
Fingers crossed for Chick.
Andi, a friend of mine runs in bare feet, he used to be 6ft tall now he is only 5ft 3 inchs so beware
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Well back home and sober, on reflection of #4 marathon, did not try nowhere near hard enough.
Facts are, 120 BPM ave for the marathon works out at 75%, lower than I first thought.
Went through half way in 1.49.17 secs. Kept same pace till mile 22 but last 4 miles pace dropped 1min a mile, but very little increase in HR, which I find strange!
Drank at all water stations 3miles apart, but also carried a 500ml of electro light drink from start till mile 6, then picked up another 500ml at 14 miles .
6 gels was just right, one every 4 miles.
Finally whilst stood on the start line a wave of calm, peacefulness came over me, rather than a bag of nerves, like I usually am.
That's about it folks, best of luck to you all.
Roy, seems like you showed up w/out race nerves. I've done that when giving a lecture and it always ends poorly. Also, the last 4 miles...loss of pace and HR steady...seems like you may have bonked? Even though HR didn't drop, you'd think it would increase as the effort increased to maintain running. Just have to focus on the next one.
So many name changes going on here?! Hard to keep track of you guys but seems the return to volume is on pace CM and good miles for you too DY (take care though with the aches/pains).
BeDe, will revisit the pace vs HR when I get some time.
So coming off some good volume/quality this week had a great race today. I decided to not look at my HR during the race but just to run by feel. 1st mile 6:23...felt really easy/comfy. Then all the hills started and found myself killing people on the hills and feeling very strong. Got into a nice little pack and just stayed with them. Rolled my ankle after 3rd mile (very scary...thought I was going to have to stop but limped back to pace and decided to just go for it as I was having a great race). Final mile was 6:03 and final was 31:45 (6:21 m/m ave; HR ave was 175 which is about 88% Miles 1-4 right near that HR and last mile ave 180). My 10K a month ago was 6:48 m/m and my previous 5K PR is 6:31 m/m. Something special is going on right now. Ankle is sore tonight but not while running so should be OK.
I hope Chick had a great race as I was just up the hill and the weather was great. But I think it got hotter when she ran.