Shades Marathon Training



  • mamafox - because it starts at The Cabbage Patch pub!
  • I won a cabbage in the race last year! It was a savoy :)
    edited October 2017
    mowzer - sounds lovely and civilised all those food stops, I think maybe the running might take a while to return to while you're enjoying yourself so much.

    mowzer said:

    slowkoala - once I'd started running at a slower pace I didn't reintroduce any speed work. But I did keep up the hill work - although 'running up' I would try to stay strong and steady rather than trying to power up as fast as possible. 'Running down' you can go fast to give your legs a quick turnover and gravity means your HR doesn't rise. I never set out to run pbs - just to run the best I could on the day. One of the experienced (ie older) members of the 100MC (DK - Shades knows him) has very quick age group times. He says he just runs how he feels and often doesn't even wear a watch  :p

    I don't know what training DK does now but he used to run 10 miles a day all at an easy pace and he's never let his performance drop, amazing runner especially for his age.

    Steve - good luck to your GF at the GSR, she'll be joining us on this thread next  ;)  (and she'd be very welcome).  Don't think I've ever done an 8 mile race, nice distance to race.

    Nick - I'm sure when a race chucks in stats about % of PB's they'll have included all first timers who are of course guaranteed a PB as long as they finish.

    John - ask away, only too happy to help.   If you have room in your bum bag maybe a little cereal bar, if you think you're going to be hungry in the latter stages.  Then if you are and hitting a bad patch you can eat that,  knowing that you've fuelled yourself can often help you through a bad patch mentally.

    Jelly - that's a good habit to have a water bottle handy.   Re your week's running, that's the downside of club/group training that the group are often too fast/slow for what you want/need to do.

    Iain - 14 is still a decent distance, maybe you were a bit tired.

    SK - you'll just have to run like hell then on Sunday, no chance of being able to pick off your opponents.   Does everyone get a cabbage at the race or just the prize winners?   I guess just the prize winners, otherwise delivering and distributing cabbages would be quite a task

    mamafox - the next time you do a short race go like hell at the finish and take your MHR from that, add on a few beats say 5, if you're not sick or need oxygen.   I'm sure your base training is at the right level otherwise you wouldn't have made the improvements that you have.

    I omitted to say earlier that I'm so pleased to hear that your tendonitis has finally gone, that's been a very long time.   I don't suppose you'll ever know what got rid of it!

    I haven't bought any new shoes, these are a pair of Guide 9's that I bought earlier in the year, I always keep a spare pair of race shoes.

    Another mild morning here, nice easy run, heel fine.

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Just at the airport and reading back a bit more thoroughly. 

    Jelly - for what it's worth, I'd avoid the pace groups. I've never ran in one, but they always seem really crowded and you can't run at your own pace. Also as MF says, if you're feeling good you may want to push on, and I suppose it may hold you back if you think the pacer is 'correct'. Or if you're having a lull and they pull ahead, I'd imagine it can impact people negatively. Just run your own race would be my advice. 

    Shades - I don't know that Trotter personally but she's the only person I know who got a ballot place too. Do you think they may have reduced the number of ballot places available?  As far as I'm aware, they don't release the figures on that do they?

    I was speaking to RK a lot again last night, and his cousin's advice was genuine advice. I hope he changes his approach. I can't imagine doing 75+ and basically feeling crap in the last part of most of them!

    I haven't ran since the race, although I did a lot of walking on Sunday afternoon and also yesterday. Legs feel fine at the moment - another difference to the week after Plym Trail!  It's amazing the difference a week has made as this time last week I was still feeling rough after Plym Trail!!

    Cal - I hope everything is ok with the test results. I can imagine it must be on your mind a lot of the time. Take care. 

    Ian - well done on a other PB. You've had a great year and definitely more to come.  Sorry I can't remember - have you any more planned this year?

    Lily - well done to you too.

    As for me, the marathon pics have come out and I still look a state even though I was quite enjoying myself. I wouldn't purchase them anyway as they're too expensive, but having seen them I definitely wouldn't!

    Sorry I haven't replied to everyone - it's a bit trickier on a phone. 
  • Shades - yes, the cabbages are prizes but I'm more interested in the cash! They also give a couple of bikes away as on the spot prizes if you put your bib in a box.

    Jelly - I've actually had a good experience with pacers before. I'd avoid if there are big crowds around them but at most races they'll have a couple of pacers for each time, so it at least spreads people out. I wouldn't rely on them entirely, because as Big G says, you may want to vary your pace by feel, but it's often nice to have the company and the feeling of a common goal.

    I totally missed that MF's tendinitis has gone! That must be a big relief :)
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Shades-I tried the guide 10's on as I'm sue some new shoes soon and they felt really nice so ordered myself a pair  :)
    Big G-No more marathons planned until April,but I admit I've been having a sneaky look to see whether to do another this year,will wait and see. 
  • Ian - Sounds like you might also have the marathon bug if you are considering another before the end of the year!!
    Shades - Thanks, it's her target race for the year and will be the longest distance she has run since London marathon in 2016. I'll obviously be running too, but depending on how I feel after the marathon I might just take it easy with no time in mind.

    5 mile recovery this morning.
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    SK - yes that's what I'd do if I was trying to run with a pace group. Actually it's what I did at Manchester this year but the pacer zoomed off!
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    London Marathon Trotter, I run with a fair bit, chatting to her last night and she's bricking it and doesn't believe she can do it. Her confidence doesn't match her ability. Hopefully with the club support and a good training plan we can build her confidence so she can enjoy the day. She has a supportive hubby which helps with the hours of training. 
    Big G - hope the hangover has gone :D

    I don't know if there are less ballot places, I would guess that every year there are more folk in the ballot, I think I saw a figure somewhere that this year was 386K in the ballot and I'm sure it wasn't that long ago that figures of 120K used to be mentioned.   I think they like to say how many enter the ballot, I'm sure somewhere there are stats of how many places are available, not sure where though.

    RK must hero worship his cousin then, he needs to run his races to suit him and so he enjoys them, I'll never forget how genuinely miserable he was at Plym Trail.

    Glad to hear the legs feel good, that's what a good race and a PB does for recovery, just shows how important the brain and our mood is.

    I might go and look for your photos now ;)

    SK - I'd be more interested in the cash than the cabbages too :)

    Ian - I've just been reading shoe reviews on the Guide 10 this week and some made me doubt buying them, I can't get any Guide 9's in my size now.   But in the end I've decided I will buy the 10's next but I am going to go up half a size, quite a few say they're a little smaller than the 9's and the 9's don't have plenty of room for me plus with the elastic laces I should still be able to get a good fit.

    Jelly - re Trotter with London place, she will need a lot of moral support, I'm sure you and Big G can help her.   She was in my running group years ago , was never keen on racing but she's come back to running now and I know she did GNR a couple of years ago and New Forest half last year.   Hopefully there might be another marathon virgin in the club training for their first marathon too at the same time.

    Big G - I just went to look at your photos, they're fine, you look very calm and composed and concentrating on the run.    Pity the photos at the finish line are rubbish, too far away, always nice to have a finish photo with the race clock on a PB day.  Of course that may not be your PB for long! :)
  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Re ballot places - I did read on their website this year that they said it was a completely random draw (IIRC the phrase "like the national lottery" was used). This surprised me a bit as I always assumed they tried to balance it out a bit as e.g. they could probably cope with more sub 3 hr and 6+ hr runners but in between that it maybe not so much. I also thought they maybe weighted it towards first timers (though didn't make this public).
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    How many ballot must take in previous years deferred places. I know they have idea of % deferred each year but if 2017 had high number they must account for this. 
    Nick - the ballot is random except for finish times, apparently 3:30 to 4:30 is the most popular finish time that is put on the entries and that makes it a bit harder to gain a place if that finish time is quoted.   I don't think it's weighted towards first timers at all.

    Jelly - yes, you're right.  I expect they take total number of places, deduct elite, GFA, deferrals from previous year, the charity places and what's left is up for ballot. 

    Before the entry system went online if you were unsuccessful 5 times you got a place the following year.  Now there are too many ballot entrants to be able to do that.

  • NickW2NickW2 ✭✭✭
    Shades, in that case they lie to people then as they say on their website FAQ:
    "Q. How is the ballot drawn?
    A. It is a totally random ballot with no weighting - just like the draw for the National Lottery."
  • Shades/Nick - I've heard that the ballot isn't sophisticated enough to look at predicted start times and other variables and I'd be inclined to believe this given how disorganised VLN can be! I read that they get around the same time spread each year just by making it completely random. I think the predicted start times are just used to allocate people to the start pens.
  • E mmyE mmy ✭✭✭
    Nick - Someone (not sure who now...) said that you shouldnt look at the VLM as a marathon. It's a fundraising event where running is included. The ballot system is completely inaccurate and as Shades says; then tend to have a lot of 'block' times. I only got into VLM through 5 rejections and i'm now on year 6 of refusals.

    Long run planned for tomorrow and i'm going to see how i get on. 
    Bronze: Go out for a run
    Silver: 15 miles
    Gold: 18 miles
  • LoueyLouey ✭✭✭
    Some fantastic performances at the weekend – well done everyone! Sorry it's taken until now to post – had visitors all weekend and it's been a bit full on.

    Ian – Very well done! 50 mins in a year is a massive amount of time to take off your marathon time. 

    BigG – Amazing time! After so long just missing the sub 4hrs, you have totally nailed it this year. And that is a massive negative split which suggests you can go much quicker. Hope the hangover has completely gone now. 

    Cal – you deserve a huge pat on the back for going out there and completing it given your injuries. Just shows how fit you are if you can walk it at that speed. What are your rehab plans? I hope the swollen lymph nodes are nothing sinister – if it's any consolation, I went to the Drs about something similar a couple of years ago and he said that sometimes they go up when you have an infection and don't go down again when you are better. 

    Lily – Very well done on the PB! That's a massive improvement on your last time. That hill at the end is horrible isn't it but at least the very last stretch is downhill. 

    Shades – I was listening to Marathon talk earlier and they said that there were 30% more entries to VLM this year than the year before. I've had a no 5 years in a row but obviously they can't run that system anymore as there are so many people entering. Glad to hear your heel has recovered finally.  

    MF – so very glad to hear your foot is better!!! And now I'm hoping to hear about more random French prizes at races ;-) What have you got coming up?

    Steve – Coming 33rd when you were using it as a training run is pretty impressive! The GSR was the first "proper" race I did (back in 2009). From recollection, it was a scenic route and well supported. I hope your girlfriend enjoys it.

    Mowzer – I hadn't realised that you were still struggling with your foot, I just assumed you were doing more walking events as I know you love them. 

    Emmy – glad you took the week off and that you are feeling much better now. 18 miles sounds like a lot to run this close to the race though? I did 14 last weekend (well actually Friday) and will be doing 10 this weekend and I'm also racing on 22nd. 

    SK – I like a bit of pre-race stalking. Wishing you the best of luck in your quest for the money and beer (and not cabbages). 

    Jelly – I think sometimes the pacers can help, sometimes they can hinder. It may depend on how busy Birmingham is. At VLM I found it impossible to get near or stay near the 4.30 pacer, too many people. At smaller races I have sat back from a pacer and that has worked. 

    5 miles at MP done today. Feeling very tired (too much wine and not enough sleep at the weekend) and still not sure what pace to run at in 12 days time. My office is like a doctors surgery, full of coughing spluttering people. I am trying to stay well away. 

    On another note, can anyone recommend a good (but not expensive) head torch? I went for a run on Sunday evening after the visitors had left and the street lighting in my new area is rubbish! I really need something to be able to see as it is now getting dark so early. The pavements are also in poor condition so I was mainly running along the roads (which were at least quiet). 

  • Louey - thanks. Rehab for the hip is basically the same as for most other stuff - lotta glute work, clams and monster band walks. It's just weird that it's not calming down. I think my whole body is angry at the moment. Royal Parks left me way more sore than I expected (not surprising really - I've never walked that far at that speed before - in fact I've not walked more than 4 miles in a long while, even if I've run much further). My back is killing today. Went for a walk (about 2.5 miles) and it was murder. It's kind of hard not to think about what it could all mean when stuff hurts so much. I keep thinking of Andy Whitfield, that actor who played Spartacus in the first series of the Starz show (which I enjoyed when it was on). He thought he'd hurt his back training and didn't think too much of it. Turned out to be cancer and he died from it. Guy was fit as hell.
    Only way I can seem to distract myself is by gaming or watching TV. I know it's likely nothing but, eh. Can't help thinking because if turns out to be not nothing, I'm more or less on my own. Single, no close relatives, a few friends who I don't see more than a couple of times a year. I'm an introvert so I've always been OK with this, but it's not so much fun when you're in the poop. I'm visiting my closest friend in Manchester next week but really I was going up to cheer him up as he has a lot of bad stuff going on right now too.
    I'd feel a hell of a lot better if I could go out for a stress-relieving run, but that's not an option right now.

    Oh, and I didn't get into VLM either. Wasn't expecting to, so not fussed, honestly. Got my places in Manchester and Liverpool booked if I'm recovered by then, which I hope to be.
  • JugulaJugula ✭✭✭
    Cal, my lymph nodes are almost always raised and swell at any sign of illness even if I'm not aware of feeling unwell.
     I had a dreadful virus a couple of months back which knocked the crap out of me, couldn't run for 4 weeks, I felt a lump in front of my ear and instantly self diagnosed every bad outcome known to man, im a big time neurotic, I saw the doc, or duty nurse I think it was, she said sometimes they stay up and not to be concerned unless I began to feel unwell again. If I think about it too much I still get concerned in case she got it wrong, there's the neurotic coming out to play!
    Running is one of the few things that shuts up the negative innner self talk in my potty head!
    Hopefully you get some good news on Thursday.
  • Thanks Jugula. I guess we all get a bit scared at times, eh? :)
  • JugulaJugula ✭✭✭
    Fear and anxiety are like stalkers around here!
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    Cal - Thanks for the cabbage race info! After that speedy long walk I would think it's normal that you're feeling achey. I'm no expert but I guess rapid walking uses different muscles to even a slow run... and you were doing it for 13 miles too. Are you still managing to do your Yoga at the moment? Hopefully that might help things a bit, as well as taking your mind off those tests etc. Easier said than done but try not to worry yourself too much, we've all been there though. Have you made any decision about your next marathon.. what about looking for a foreign one near a roller coaster that you haven't done? (if that exists!)

    Hi Jugula  :)

    Big G - Glad to hear you've bounced back from both marathon and hangover!

    Shades/SK - Yes it is wonderful that the tendonitis has finally gone.. I've had it since December 2015! Unfortunately I've no idea what definitely made it go, after running/not running nothing seemed to make much difference but since this summer it seems to have just faded away. Maybe it was changing shoes that helped, I've been using my Hokas for most runs and, looking back, that seems to have been around the time that things seemed to start getting better. Just hope it doesn't come back now I've written that!

    Shades - I avoid shorter races as I'm pants at them. It takes me at least 10k to warm up. I think I'll have to try the running up a hill option at some point.

    Emmy - Love the bronze goal  :D

    Louey - I've got fab hand lights which the lovely Emmy sourced for me some time ago. I do nearly all my running in the pitch dark with no street lights and these lights are the best thing ever.
    No chance of me winning any novelty prizes with the form I've got at the moment! I think we'll just have to count on SK to bring us back a thread cabbage this weekend.

    I was supposed to do a split recovery run today.. 10k in the morning and 6k in the evening. Well there was no way that was going to happen so I did it all in one go this morning. Worst run ever, no energy, legs like bits of wood. Only plus point was that I heard a stag calling. Can't remember the proper verb for that.
    Anyway, to motivate myself I've entered Cognac half marathon on the 11th November, 2 weeks before marathon. Wasn't going to as it's quite pricey but plan says 10-21k race so I've gone and done it. Hopefully will be a better show than the last HM I did.

  • Hmm, I don't know about stags - isn't it just calling? And do you get cognac at the HM? :grin:

    I did yoga yesterday and struggled more than usual, but that's to be expected (especially due to the crap sleep that had me giving up and having a bath at 4am). Tuesdays is a Bikram only day and I'm not doing Bikram right now as it's too back/hamstring intensive. There's an evening flow class tomorrow so I might do that, and then the 6:30am one on Thursday. Still managed a few sun salutations on my own this morning. It's a good way to start the day.
  • mowzermowzer ✭✭✭
    Louey - I think my foot is actually 99% ok now. It's my larger foot so that might be why I have to keep those laces looser. I am aware of any slight ache though, so then I might have a paracetamol so that it stops aching and I don't over-compensate with different muscles (which is how the whole thing started  :/). I am enjoying the walking though - you get a chance to see the scenery, you don't (usually) fall over (but my legs did have a fight with some brambles on Sunday) and I find I don't get any anxiety  :)

    With regards to lights - Alpkit do a very good and cheap head torch. Decathlon do a very bright chest light. In my few forays into the night I've been known to wear both at the same time.
  • Evening shadies..
    after my slightly disappointing run on Sunday, I took a rest day yesterday and did my long run today. I think the days rest did me good as I was able to run 18.5 with no major issues. I even experienced what low carbers  describe as a whoosh, a sudden burst of constant energy, and it was so good to feel that, even picked up the pace a bit but then my head took over and I slowed down again. Really pleased with how my training is going and how fit I am feeling.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Hi Cal, I know all our situations are different, but I do understand where you're coming from about that feeling of being on your own.  My Dad is 78 and he's the only family I have, and has his own health problems so I don't burden him with my stuff.  After the initial shock of what happened to Claire had sunk in, it was the being alone aspect that was the worst, and was magnified when I've been unwell myself.  I really hope everything is okay when you get the results; I've got everything crossed for you.

    Shades, I actually mentioned that race to RK.  Me, him and Smokes were chatting (plus RK's partner was there), and I said "Mate, you went off like a bloody rocket, and was a mile ahead, but I finished way ahead of you.  Initially I thought you were just having a blinder, but....".  At this point Smokes piped up and said "Hayden (that's what he always calls me...), you didn't think that!  You just thought "what a t***", didn't you?!".  We all laughed and it was all in good jest, but I think RK needs to change his approach and I told him that, and from the weekend I think there is a small chance he may do.  We'll see.  In a way I think he does look up to his cousin actually, as it's his cousin that got him onto his own 100MC journey.  He's like me though and can talk running all day and night, so I think we're going to go out for a few beers talk about running :)  His PB is 4:15 from his first marathon in 2008 (DMV), so I think that's his medium target, and then push on to 4:00.  Fingers crossed for him, but if he doesn't change his approach it won't happen...which I also told him.  

    It was really good actually as RK had lost his 2008 DMV medal.  Smokes offered him his, but he had no idea where it was so before Munich he went through all his medals/trophies etc....he laid them all out and they covered his living room floor, he's got so many (not just marathons, but cross country, all sorts of stuff).  Smokes said he actually quite enjoyed going through all the boxes as it brought back some memories.  Of course DMV 2008 was in the in the last box he opened, but he did give it to RK which was nice.  
  • JellyJelly ✭✭✭
    Love Smokes, we've all got runners on our shoulders when we race and he's one of mine, head up maid, dig deep. Skippy is the other. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Jelly, I have the same, but it tends to be from this thread.  About 18months ago, I was running really well but was a bit nervous about what pace to go out at in a Half.  SK came on and more or less just go for it and I did (and I had this thread in my mind as I was racing).  That is still my Half PB, although I don't do as many now.  I have to say, even at Munich I was thinking about what I was going to post on here, as I knew I was on for a PB :)  
  • SlowkoalaSlowkoala ✭✭✭
    edited October 2017
    Mamafox, is it bellowing? Isn't this time of year rutting season so there must be a lot of bellowing, or whatever it is going on. That's good that you've entered another HM. Do you wear the Hokas for racing as well as training?

    Louey - come back to the suburbs, no need for head torches here! (I'm just jealous of your new, scenic running routes).

    8 mile run with club last night. For some reason, someone decided to up the pace and whilst half the group dropped back, the competitive side of me made me try and keep up. The guy who'd led, then dropped out at 5 miles to go home, so we then slowed  down! Weirdly though, my average HR was the same as it is usually on this run when I go at least 30 secs slower per mile. But I definitely wasn't able to chat as much as I can usually.

    Achey glutes since fitness training on Monday. I think I'll have a rest day today. :)

    Cal - 6:30 am is very early for yoga, but I suppose if you are having baths at 4am, it's not so bad!
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