HADD Training Method



  • Chick sorry x-post - bad news ! I hope that turns out to be less serious than it first appears...image

  • Chickimageimage... fingers crossed for you.

    Carrie - welcomeimage. Good advice already given.

    Teknik - all good training. Sub-LTs are going to vary, especially if you've been sodding around!image

    5.3 miles at 8/m and 77% maxHR (I'm going to do a good amount of  "everday running" at this effort level over the next month). Legs a bit tired but much improved on the last 2 day DOMS-nightmare.

  • Tecknik and Chickadee (hope you get better) thank you for the advice, much appreciated, after 2 years of running i'm back to being a newbie image  I am gonna miss intervals tho and a little worried about slowing down but i know its all for the greater good.

    And thanks all for the welcome.... now off to go beat myself up on a hill to find my MHR

  • Welcome Carrie and don't be nervous about asking lots of Q's, I did (and still do) though made a booboo by doing 5 months of HADDing using WHR and ended up running everywhere at an average of 77-78%MAX! (should have asked about that before I started lol).

    Spen, Teknik, answered your Q better than I could, it looks like too much hard work for me.

    Chick, fingers crossed for you, I had an op on a degenerative disc - 3 months recovery but it didn't 'fix' the problem and its only since I started running that I've been relatively pain free. Fingers crossed it's a pulled muscle and if you can stand the pain try and ease up on the painkillers as they could mask issues and you could end up doing more harm.

    Txs peeps, the 4 mile flat run turned into a 6 miler on an undulating route - HRM was playing up in the first 1/4 mile and hit 99%MAX (I blame Carter). 10:50mm's @ 73% and the last 3 were running into wind gusting to 28mph

  • Hi, I've been lurking on this thread for some time. I'm just getting back into Hadd training after a back problem, which flared up in early May. No sooner had I got the all clear to resume running than I somehow managed to twist my knee while cookingimage

    Chick, I would strongly recommend the McKenzie Method for dealing with a bad back. See http://www.mckenziemdt.org/

    I was in constant pain when sitting or lying in bed and it spread into my left glute as well.  If I spent 10 minutes in a car, it would take me 5 minutes to straighten up when I got out. A friend pointed me towards a McKenzie physio and I was soon on the mend. There's also a book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Treat-Your-Back-Robin-McKenzie/dp/0959804927. Hope you get sorted soon.

    I'm running at sub-75% MHR and gradually building up my mileage. Did 42k last week and am hoping for an uninterrupted winter of Hadd training.

  • Chick, I don't like the sound of that at all. I concur with others...hope very much it's something that can quickly be resolved. Healing thoughts coming your way.

    Dr. Dan, glad to hear the soreness is receding. I like your idea of some slightly higher effort pacing for your last month.

    My sub-LT today was a bit tiring. I managed a 7:18 pace but ave HR was 165 (83%). The pace felt comfortable, but I was just tired (not necessarily my legs, just me). Haven't been getting much sleep as I have a HUGE deadline at work. Haven't been eating well as a result...haven't been getting more than 5-6 hrs sleep each night. Plus, did my progressive LR 2 days ago. So I'll chalk this one up as hay in the barn. Life can be exhausting sometimesimage.

  • Chick, hope the back pain improves and your feeling better soon

    Tek, still a good LT run, next one will be better and as you've said the club run the day before might not have helped

    DD, nice run and good to hear the DOMs are clearing

    Carrie, PeteHew, welcome

    Andie, nice running and into the wind, hopefully it will be a little less breezy today

    VT, nice LT run especially given that you are tired and stressed well done


    8 mile run with 5 @ LT not the best of runs, the hip flexor felt a little niggly and HR was up but managed to hit the targeted pace, average HR was below 80% but drifted up to 83%

  • Afternoon all and welcome to the new HADDers.

    Chick - hope the back gets better soon

    Teknik - dont worry about having a bad run, most of your runs are pretty good from what I've read.

    Dr.Dan - does "everyday running" mean you're going to run every day ??

    Carrie - I'm new to this HADDing malarkey too and these guys have been rally friendly and helpful so you should stick around

    Andi - well done on achieving 99%, that's very impressive image I bet the weather is lovely in Craggy Island at the moment ??

    PeteHew - you're going to have to tell us how you got a knee injury while cooking ??

    VT - keep at it. We sometimes have to battle on with our running when life gets in the way.

    Stewart - stretch and roll, stretch and roll, stretch......

    Our local running shop, Accelerate in Sheffield, held an event last night in conjunction with Salomon. There was kit available that we could test on a run and I tried the new Hellraisers. It's the first time I've run in proper fell shoes and they were really good, so I'm off to buy some tomorrow which I'm hoping to wear if I can make it to the Stanage Struggle fell race on Sunday 

  • Ok so I didn't get out for last night for my mhr run, hubby said I had to put the bike back together. .I thought that was his job! Anyway with it being cold and wet today will that affect it or does it not really matter?

    Good luvk with your run this weekend carterusm its supposed to be warm again yay!
  • Carrie - my view is that the current weather shouldn't affect your heart rate too much. I believe it will be the more extreme temperaturs, both hot and cold, that could. The more knowledgeable HADDers will be along soon to confirm or put me right !

  • Chick - you have my sympathiesimage

    chickadeee wrote (see)

    busy thread! sorry for radiosilence - Bit of an injury nightmare for me. Either a herniated disc or a pulled muscle in my back. unable to move much ... strong painkillers and injections. not happy ... 

  • Dr.Dan you've got me thinking - I've got 2 subLTs coming up per week from now on, and I think I'll dial one back to 78/79% to see how much more comfortable it seems.

    Andi that was some headwind!

    Pete welcome and good luck on the easy mileage build upimage

    VT that was an impressive subLT with so much going on

    Stewart well done on the MP run - hope the hip niggle goes quickly

    Carter the new kit sounds goodimage

    Carrie it won't matter.  If you can't get round to the MHR test, you can in the meantime use, say, your peak in a 5k race + 5 beats?

    BeDe hope all is well

    Chick how do you feel today?image

    14m MLR for me this morning, felt very sluggish for the first 6m then joined the club and had to speed up.  All ok here.image

  • hi guys, thanks for all the nice comments

    MRT today confirmed a prolapsed disc. it will hopefully pop back on its own. painkillers, injections and physio for the next couple of weeks ... great timing image


  • Welcome Pete, you'll find a friendly, helpful bunch on here and happy HADDing image I'm with Carter and wonder how you did your knee whilst cooking!

    VT, great run considering 'stuff' and hope things calm down for you soon.

    Txs Stewart and yup, wind was down a bit today image I hope the niggle doesn't become something worse and keep an eye on it.

    Carter, looks like it's going to be a lovely Sunset now the rain have stopped (10 minutes after my run). I hope Mrs C has given her blessing for the new shoes? And hope the shoes are ok for the Fell Run, looks harsh at 1165ft incline over 10k.

    Carrie, is that you on the bike in your profile piccy? I thought you meant you had to put the cycle back together at first. As has been said, wet weather shouldn't sway a MAX test much if at all so get out there and do itimage

    Teknik, yup, the headwind was hard work however, my pace was similar to the outward 3 miles - HR was up a bit mind. A 14 mile MLR always makes me smile, have just been going through stats from earlier on in the year and I was putting LSR down for 8k lol.

    Chick, sorry about the news - take care. 

    Managed my flat(ish) 4 miles today and was happy with the time. Back in June when I was running to WHR not MHR I did the same course with a 12:03mm pace and 76% AHR - today I managed 10:21mm's @75% AHR so something is working image

  • Sorry to hear the news Chick.


    Read the thread about the phase 2.  And to be honest I cannot make any sense of it.,

  • Big improvement Andi! image

    Stewart/VT ... all good sub-LT miles in the bank!

    carter - no, I run 6 days per week at best and often just 5. By "everyday" I meant my filler mileage (i.e. not the LSR and subLT runs) which is usually 70% maxHR but, given I have 4 weeks to D-Day, I think I'll spend a little more time in the MP area as it's now feeling very comfortable.

    Teknik - sounds like a plan. I like the 78% area at this stage as it feels like natural MP. Maybe one day 80+% will feel the same ... more work required first!

    Spen - same here ... I only use Hadd for base-training.

    An easy 5.3M again today ... perhaps do a sub-LT tomorrow if the legs feel recovered enough.

  • 11 miles today. Was hot again here. 8:30 pace at 74%. Still feeling tired, but wanted to get some distance in on the heels of the subLT. Not many more chances to stimulate adaptations. Will do maybe one 70% run then the last 20 miler Sunday.

    Chick, I have no idea what a prolapsed disc means, but I hope, as you say, it can pop back in soon. Have you had an issue like this in the past? Also, I wouldn't fret too much. You still have A LOT of time before that race is here. A few weeks on the mend may fix more than just your back. Let's keep hoping for a quick recovery.

    And sorry I haven't been keeping up with everyone lately...too much on the burner at work. Will be a better neighbor after October 7th (when my work project finishes)!

  • I think they way I am going to do this from now on is.   Run 6 days a week.    One sub lt,   one hill rep   2 flat easy runs and 2 hilly runs. 

  • Txs Dr.Dan, think this was one of those WTF moments you get image

    spen, that sounds like a plan, how do you run hills? steady HR, steady pace or something else? And is 83% a good guesstimate for LT? I've been here a while but feel like I (still) know nothing lol

  • Hey everyone - hidden away is a little gem from Andi

    Pre HADD - 12:03mm at 76% (albeit from WHR not MHR)

    Now - 10:21mm at 75%

    Party, dance, jump for joy etc.,etc. THIS IS WHY WE HADD!!imageimageimageimageimage

    Andi - take a bow!

    PS - how long have you been HADDing now?

  • Andi McGill 2 wrote (see)

     And is 83% a good guesstimate for LT? I've been here a while but feel like I (still) know nothing lol

    The highest HR you can run at for 10M with no pace loss (and know you could continue further without pace loss) is probably close to being just uner LT. Hadd reckoned you can push this up to closer to 90%. For me at the moment that would be more like 80% than 83% ... but for others it's higher. I suspect that the big improvements come when you do start to push this percentage higher but I think that takes a lot on consistent and patient sub-LTing over a prolonged period (something I've never managed).


  • Dammit Andi you got me altho i do enjoy running in the rain when i get out there.  Yes thats my old bike but i have a new one now that needed a little rebuilding after a little off i had on track, all back together now ready for another hoon on monday image

    I did the test and got 182.. did i pass?? i had hoped it was gonna be higher as that means 137 which i'm a little worried about keeping to since i normally go over that within the first few minutes.. any advice?? Although i haven't done a 5k race my fastest 5k run was 25'11 so if my 75% is slower than 11mm i should do the 11mm is that right?

    The speeds you guys are doing now, are they faster than what you were doing before you started HADDing? I know its a very long way off but its something for me to hope for

    Have a good friday peeps image

  • Yep Carrie - try to keep down around 135 bpm, eventually aiming for lower  (sub-70%). If that really is too slow at this stage, try 11/m instead. Just think about time on feet at those HRs. There are a couple of assumptions ... first that 182 really is your maxHR as it's easy to underestimate it ... and second that 25.11 is your 5K race pace (I know I'd struggle to reproduce my 5KP outside a race). But 135 ish sould be close enough to make a start. Keep on keeping on.image

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Long time no show for me on this thread so thought i'd pop in. Good to see a few new faces on here and some of the more familiar ones sticking with it and reaping the rewards image For any newbies to HADD all i can say is i'd absolutely recommend it but you need patience. Teknik's is a first class example of how HADD can change your running for the better

    Nothing magical about it, just stick to the rules, be patient, build your mileage and stay injury free.

    Speaking of familiar faces, anyone seen Brian

    Chick - i hope your injury doesn't keep you out and make you shit image, all the best image


  • Thanks Dr.Dan , i did a 4*400m hill sprint session where i literally wanted to throw up at the end image maxHR's were 178,181,181 and 182 ...was this enough to get it?

    And just discovered Peterborough now finally has a Parkrun so i may head down there first thing to see what i can do in a race, just out of curiousity now image and should slow me down enough on sunday to try my first HADD run

  • Hi Mace! How's training?

    Carrie - it will certainly get you close enough! Wear your HR monitor in the parkrun 5K.

    9.3M for me with 8 of them at sub-LT (7:25/m for 82% maxHR). Decided not to bang out anotehr 2M at that effort given the HM last week and the need to do a 22M+ run on Sunday.

  • Hey Mace. What's up in your world these days?

    Dr. Dan, nice session. Smart decision too. I've been running on the razor's edge lately in a (desperate) attempt to get all I can in before race day. In your case, you've got so much good (and consistent) training in the bank that to push too hard would not be justified. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out for you. Also, regarding the adrenaline factor on race day, I agree. It my artificially inflate things so might have to go with a pace goal over the first 5 miles or so (and go by feel too).

  • excellent improvement Andi image

    hi mace image

     it will make me shit i'm afraid... can't do anything at the mo... Fitness is fading quickly... 

    waiting for an appointment with a neurosurgeon to stick injections in my back under a CT Scanner ... hopefully that'll make the disc recede and stop irritating the nerves

  • Txs all and yup, as WTF moments go I think it was a biggy image

    Bede, I started HADDing back in February but was using WHR not MHR so was actually still running everywhere at 75-78& of MHR. I began 'proper' HADDing in July, not done any proper sLT's etc yet though the hills still bring my HR up.

    In July I was averaging 11:59 min/miles at 73% of MHR and for September am currently averaging 11:00 min/miles @74% of MHR. Providing the Marathon goes well I could have my first Month running sub 11 min miles.

    Txs for the clarification Dr.Dan, it's the 'with no pace loss' that will do me in. All of my routes from home have a biggish hill when running further than 3 miles though am already finding I can run* up the undulations that used to have me gasping though at a reduced pace to the flat.

    As VT says, good run and yup, probably wise as you have back to back busy weekends (again).

    Carrie, in my Mid Life crisis it was either a bike or a little convertable, I think 4 wheels was the best choice for meimage I might be inclined to add a couple of BPM to your MAX and good luck with the Parkruns, they should be a good gauge of improvements.

    Hi Mace, I think I had joined this group when you were still around, still HADDing?

    VT, I have several 'plans' for my first Marathon and as you suggest, none of them include going out to fast, most of the first 7 miles are downhill so hopefully will be able to run a little faster than pMP with a lowish HR and that the Adrenalin will hopefully take me from 20 to 26.2 image

    Txs Chick, hope all goes well with the trip to the Neurosurgeon image

    * the word 'run' is used in the loosest sense.

  • Well, healing thoughts your way then Chick. I hope the steroids do the trick. I bet they will.

    Andi, nice that your race is downhill to start. Not sure whether you'll have any adrenaline left by mile 20 thoughimage. By then, you are on autopilot, in an altered state of mind/reality; your legs don't work they way you remember them to, you could envision stopping, but there is no way in hell that you will. It's the time when you look into your guts and see (no, declare!) what you are made of. It's profound stuff and the reason doing 1 marathon is never enough.

    OK, back to reality...think my adrenaline is surging nowimageimage.

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