Over 60's training (Part 2)

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  • Welcome Tarka; love the name. As we are in the introductions phase I'll add that I'm 62 (but could pass for 61 on a good day) and have been running on and off for about 35 years. I've no great pedigree but I've hung around long enough and not declined rapidly enough to be good for my age. I don't go in for heroic distances and am a bit of a parkrun addict - mainly because 5k seems to be my 'natural' distance. I live in Worthing on the south coast but please don't hold that against me. My parents ran a caravan site in Great Torrington in the 1980s so I sort of know your patch. There's a sister site to this called New Mature Runners and I dip into that too - but I wouldn't want to lure you away from this one. And, oh yes, I've had the back and Achilles probs too.

    TS - I used to negotiate too when I was a union official. My mates used to say that there'd be a 5% offer on the table and I'd go in hard and negotiate furiously and not accept anything more than 4%. As for this (Brexit) one it seems time is only on the side of one of the parties. All our friends in the EU have to do is sit on their hands and wait for the clock to tick down the 2 years and await desperation on 'our' behalf. I really hope I'm wrong but I see a disaster in the making.
    Sorry to hear about the 'retreat' - I think you are made of tough stuff and would only stop a session if your were really feeling rough. Hope it clears up quickly.

    Graham - don't know the N.E. at all but I'm thinking of it as great trail running territory. Do you think you'll take the plunge and would the terrain flare up your groin problem?

    Mick - funnily enough I finally dug out the shorts yesterday. I don't know why but I always feel quicker in shorts until.............

    Managed an undulating 4 miler at around 8.30 mms pace. Didn't notice the 'hills' mainly because I was chatting but perhaps also because I must be in relatively good shape. Will test this proposition with a parkrun tomorrow. But today: a funeral to go to. 
  • Thank you for the warm welcome, everyone!

    Torque: The back injury must be very frustrating having posted such good times. As Mick6 says, you've shown amazing tenacity to get running again.

    Mick6: Tarka the Otter, written by Henry Williamson, is set in North Devon, much of it around Bideford. Everything here is Tarka, from Tarka Scaffolding to Tarka Paranormal Investigators. It's the 90th anniversary of it being published this year. You're right - it's all about aches and pains, and how to manage them. If we waited until we were 100% fit we'd never run again.

    Graham L: Thanks for the welcome! I love trail running! Traffic-free, easier on the joints, getting out in the countryside and just great fun getting plastered in mud. I do realise how lucky I am living where I do, though. You're idea of following country walks is a good one - another idea is to get your local OS Landranger map and study it - it's very rewarding planning your own routes. Good luck with the cross-training. I do a bit of what is now called strength training but which I still call circuit training from my youth. I just do it on a mat in the hall using bodyweight. As you say, difficult to assess how helpful it is, but I enjoy it for a change.

    jb6: My son does a Park Run just about every week. I haven't done one yet, embarrassingly, but 2017 is going to be the year... Must try to get up on the Downs above you in Worthing too, either walking or running.

    No run for me today - some circuit training, and a bit of rolling and stretching.
  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    Tarka,
    Thanks for the explanation, it all sounds very English, especially the paranormal investigators.
    I am 70 and over the last 5 years have come to appreciate the role Xtrainning has in keeping me moving. I have been a runner since HS and have had my share of injuries, but nothing debilitating.
    I have run many races over the years but have been shocked by how the numbers have dropped off in my last three age groups. Even more upsetting is the total lack over men over 13st.
    My advice, if you want to keep running into your 70s include a signicant element of Xtrainning into your schedule.
    For me there are three elements that need to be the focus, mobility, flexibility and strength.
    These are not independent variables as you can't have full mobility in a joint without a degree of flexibility. I would put mobility as my highest priority.
    I attend a gym 6 days a week and what I notice most about the older men there is their lack of mobility not their lack of strength. 

    I should not have mentioned shorts yesterday as I did my 5k recovery run in a snow storm today. We are supposed to get 10 cms, I am off to Toronto for a week or two, it is a bit warmer there.

    Mick
  • Tarka - I'd definitely recommend the parkruns - for you it would be a great way back into competitive running.

    Mick - I managed the shorts this morning but it was pretty cold.


    21:29 for me - technically a very good run as I was aiming for 21:30 and I had to judge the impact of the wind which was in my face on the 'out' section and behind me on the way back. However a bit of a disappointment as I was only 2nd in category - my first 'defeat' of the 2017 - but it had to come some time of course. 7th on age grade in a field of 336 was some compensation.
  • nissing down here to day so another rest day!!

    John
    well done - that -1 sec is very important as you can very correctly say, in an airy manner, - "oh sub 21:30ish"  ;)
    Not that you would I am sure........................
    Your retreat didn't appear to do you any harm anyway, here's hoping it has a similar effect on me tomorrow!!
    you used to be a union official?  I thought you were a university lecturer in previous life?
    Anyway as far as Brexit goes one ( the government!!) has to start with everything on the table. If the EU is going to play silly buggers over Gibraltar, which is an obvious bargaining chip to be given away for a bigger concession by us on something else, we need to stack the table with other items - such as military spending contributions, cooperation & intelligence sharing, container inspections, ongoing financial commitments etc. The walk away option has to be there to keep 'em keen!!

    Mick
    Thanks for the kind words. 
    of the three, strength/power is of most importance as we inexorably lose muscle mass as we age and the loss is progressive. It can be kept at bay/reduced by training, particularly hard resistance training such as hill sessions but that carries the risk of more injury.
    I had come to that conclusion as I realised that I was not getting my strength back on the hills as I used to and was about to embark upon short hill sessions as as means of building up strength again, which interestingly, was referenced in the article Tarka linked to.

    Tarka
    it was a book I first read as a kid and have re read it many times since.
    Like the thought of Tarka Paranormal Investigators.
    It's a bit like the Lakes and Beatrice Potter. One turns a corner and finds 30 Japanese schoolgirls taking photos of a sheep!!

    I flew down to Southampton yesterday for meetings. I could only get the late flight back so spent some time working in the airport on the way back in my usual spot in Costa's.
    Guess who came to see me there again...................


    seems he must live there permanently!!
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    TS-You will be on first name terms soon.

    Took the last week as a rest from running may run tomorrow.
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    Mick, I admire you for going to the gym nearly every day. It must do you a lot of good and I know you enjoy it and meet friends. I can see the potential benefits for myself too but I'd begun not to enjoy it at all and worry about injuries. So it's not for me any more. I do have a set of dumbbells at home though and should really use those more for upper body workouts.

    Tarka, I'd also recommend park runs.

    TS, I'd have you on my EU negotiating team. I've no faith that anyone really knows what they're doing.

    Ray, sensible to have a rest. You'll return refreshed and strong.

    John, great time in your park run. What was your age-grading? Must have been pretty high to have been seventh.

    I did a very enjoyable park run myself this morning, on a different course from last week. For the first time I felt confident to run without worrying about any remnants of the groin injury. Not that I went mad as I'm still building up with caution. My time was 26m 24s, with 8:48 pace for the first mile and 8:10 for the last. To my surprise that was good enough to be first in my age-group. Still my second-slowest ever 5K but I was very happy with it. Two weeks now to gradually increase to running a 10K for the race on Easter Sunday.



  • Mick6Mick6 ✭✭✭
    John,
    Another great time from you 

    Graham,
    I admire your restraint knowing the speed you have in those legs.

    TS,
    I agree strength is a key ingredient in speed but that doesn't  appear to be the major factor that stops long time runners once in their 60s.
    Day time at my gym sees a large number of retired men, a signicant number of whom tell me stories of when they use to run. They often start conversations with me with 'I use to run'.
    Many of them are physically very strong. To a man, they lack mobility and flexibility and wonder why injuries ended their running careers.

    Snow forced me back on the treadmill today, 8k with a small gradient and easy pace but it still saw me overheating.

    Mick
  • Graham - your upcoming 10K should be a real challenge. And a 1st place is a 1st place even if you are well off your usual pace. Well done - and even better that the groin is behaving itself. (My age grading was 75.95%.)

    Mick - snow! It's beautiful here today. However it often snows on the fisrt day of the county cricket season (usually in Derbyshire and around May!) so no point being complacent, I keep toying with the idea of joining a local gym but I just know I'd overdo it if I did. Mind you, I overdo it if I don't too.

    TS - I am still a (part-time) university lecturer but I used to work in FE. I was the union chairman around the time that nationally negotiated contracts were replaced with 'plant level' deals. So I was a 'lay' official (some would say layabout).
    I have one story that I will inflict on you. I was a delegate at the national conference (Torquay, as you ask). The union was dominated by some very hard left characters who were always telling the full time union officials that they had 'sold us out'. The full-time officials got so fed up with this that they went on strike and actually picketed their own conference and the delegates couldn't get in. It was rather surreal and quite funny. But as I'd given up my tickets to a England v. West Indies match at Lords in order to attend I had an acute sense of humour failure. It was my only conference.

    5 miles in 36:45 for me today. Pleased with this.
  • Tracey GTracey G ✭✭✭
    Evening all

    My next marathon is next Sunday Brighton marathon No8.

    Did Harwich parkrun Saturday in 28:55 and today Braintree 5 in 49:48.

    Hi Tarka, im an old member of the old thread and dont post much now. Gettting closure to the BIG 60, am now 52.
  • Hi Tracey

    I hope they have the Brighton course properly measured after the fiasco over the HM!!
    Good running in you recent races - you are getting faster :)

    Graham
    very nice progress - it will soon be all systems go. It takes while to get full confidence back after an injury to really push it both in training and races

    John
    reminds me of the BBC series "The History Man" - apart from the Test match tickets, that was really serious!!

    Ray
    you have had a very hard couple of months - both in distance and in intensity of training - so a step back will have done you no harm and given you the chance to assimilate all that training load

    Strangely I feel as if I may have slightly over trained despite a much more modest background. I didn't really feel up to a run yesterday and the g'kids were staying so I was on pancake making duty for breakfast anyway and therefore ducked out.
    This morning was really crisp, almost a frost overnight, as I set out and gradually built up to 5.25 miles in 48:20 (9:11m/m) with avHR129 (65% WHR) and a max of 151

    09:27  120  131
    08:40  127  138
    09:14  129  138
    09:00  129  138
    10:03  141  151  hipps Hill
    01:56  134  142

    it all looks quite comfortable from the HR figures showing I was not really stressed at any stage but I still didn't feel quite "on it" in modern parlance despite almost getting under 10 mins for the big hill!!
  • Ray A2Ray A2 ✭✭✭
    Hi Tracey-I will be in Brighton on Sunday supporting club mates who are running I will lookout for you.

    TS-Nice run there and so nearly under 10 for the hill,pancakes are good.

    Run 11miles yesterday with the tapering group in about 9mm pace.
  • TS:  The History Man - you've nailed it! Good running.


    I hope the weather in Brighton behaves itself on Sunday for both competitors (Tracey) and supporters (Ray). The under-measurement of the Brighton half marathon created quite a few ripples in local running circles but I'm sure the marathon itself will be spot-on.


    Rest day for me today, although I've got one of those mini-trampoline thingys (a 'rebounder') which I can go on before the boredom drives me crazy
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    Tracey, all the best for the marathon. I know it's one you enjoy.

    I did a 38 mile bike ride yesterday. I've never seen so many other cyclists. Definitely more than I'd come across in my previous cycling life about 15-20 years ago. It's really taken off in the last few years.

    After six days of cycling and running it's been a rest day today. The plan tomorrow is to push the mileage up a notch to 4.5. Still a sensible pace though.
  • Tracey GTracey G ✭✭✭
    Ran Brighton half few years ago when the course was too long :-(
  • Mick – I’m sure you’re right about mobility as a major limiting factor, especially around the back and hips area. I’m now determined to work on it more. Anyone tried yoga? I find I cramp up whenever I’ve tried it – I think I need something gentle which just stretches you out of your comfort zone gradually. As far as strength training goes, I know there’s a leading American coach, Brad Hudson, who swears by all-out short hill sprints - http://www.runnersworld.com/workouts/short-steep-swift-strength

    JB6 – great time in the Park Run. It must have been very satisfying to hit your goal and in difficult conditions. You must have calves like steel to go on that mini-trampoline thingy you talked about – I tried it once and couldn’t walk for a few days.

    Graham L – like the others, I really admire your patience in gradually building up. So easy to plan, but so hard to execute! Good bike ride, too. Are the roads around you ok? In North Devon the country lanes are great, but the A and B roads have got so much busier over the last 2-3 years, with new housing developments everywhere, but no improvements in infrastructure.

    Torque – great story about Torquay and the officials picketing their own union!

    Tracy G – good luck at Brighton – hope the weather is ok. Could be a bit warm?

    I had a great 90 minute run at a nice n easy pace last Saturday afternoon. April showers cleared into a lovely Spring afternoon. Yesterday I did 45 minutes mainly nice n easy, but 4 x tempo surges of 4-6 mins each – I thought I’d better do something a bit quicker as you’re all nagging me to do a Park Run. Out for 60 mins this afternoon, at my favourite pace – nice n easy!

    Off to Norway at the weekend to visit my wife’s parents in Bergen. Plenty of XC skiing, we hope. Not like on the telly - more like hill-walking but a bit harder going up and a lot more fun going down.
  • john bateman 6john bateman 6 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    Tarka - 90 minute run + 45 minute run + surges + XC ski-ing (the sport with the highest VO2 ranking on the planet) mean that a Park Run will  seem like a.......well, run in the park.

    On the issue of short sharp hill runs I'm just back from a  flat-out run up my local hill. Hoping to shave a few more seconds off my 2017 Park Run PB; this time last year I was training for/competing in duathlons and my running times improved considerably. It was hard, hard, hard.
     BTW I'd better reclaim ownership of the Torquay anecdote which you attribute to TS. He won't mind as he's got plenty of his own!
  • So sorry, John. Left it too long between posts and was scrolling up & down like crazy. The skiing isn't competitive - more like a good hard walk!
  • John
    I'm beginning to sound like the ol' f*rt sitting in the corner reminiscing about the good ol'days :/
    Hill work eh!!  I need to do some of that soon to improve leg strength 

    Tracey
    you need to do it gain and average the two times out!!
    I hope the marathon goes well - it looks like the weather may be kind

    Tarka
    that sounds like a pretty full on training sessions!
    What do you call nice n' easy pace?  I recall (another story!!!) meeting up occasionally with the likes of Charlie Spedding and Kevin Foster on a Sunday morning when marathon training back in the NE. They would be doing an easy 7m/m 20 miler after doing a hard sub 5m/m 20 miler the previous day!  Needless to say me keeping up at 7m/m was my hard long run!!!

    Had a hard Hash last evening - only 4.5 miles-  but over a hilly course and run mainly as fartlek type. Sampling the beer in a new pub - The Little Ale House - afterwards was equally hard!! It may have had something to do with how I felt this morning as I managed to do 5.25 miles in 48:50 (9:19m/m) on tired legs

    09:30  121  131
    08:45  132  138
    09:20  133  142
    09:04  133  141
    10:16  143  154
    01:56  143  154

    I guess 10 hours rest between one run and another is not quite enough nowadays - or the beer was even better than I thought!!!
  • TS - shameless name-dropping! (But I'm impressed.)

    Tarka - no problem at all. 

    5 miles in 37:05 for me today. A little bit disappointed as I felt good. Of course that was the problem - if you feel good you aren't working hard enough! Fabulous day. I hope to get along to add my support at the Brighton marathon, alongside my 11 month old granddaughter. I'm hoping she'll be inspired.
  • Torque, have you read Charlie Spedding's autobiography From Last To First? Strongly recommended if you haven't. Must have been great running with him. I'll have to check whether you were name checked!

    Nice n easy is about 10m/m, depending on the terrain. Heart rate-wise it's on the border between easy/recovery and steady - or at least I think it is ... I'm never too sure what my max is. I've run too hard too often in the past and ended up injured, so I'm making a big effort to do most of my running at an easy pace, with just the tip of the iceberg done hard, something like 85% easy 15% hard.

    Enjoy Brighton with your granddaughter JB - let's hope she's inspired.
  • John

    wait until I get onto my (very small) part in Steve Cram's Olympic preparation :D!!

    Tarka
    I have been doing a very similar routine since my latest comeback -nearly all my runs have been in the 65-70% WHR zone.  The average pace has come down quite a bit, from 10+m/m to nearer 9m/m but the cumulative effects of so much lay off has left me severely depleted in strength and I can't really force my body too much for fear of triggering another back episode.
    My physio did prescribe any number of exercises, many of them based upon yoga or pilates, some of which I can do, but many set off the back again, so we have knocked them on the head.
    I have read Charlie's book and unfortunately I am not name checked. Very good read of the days when a club like Gateshead could call upon numerous internationals to fill up a relay team!!!

    I am off to the Lakes shortly for a few days- weather looks promising - and I may try and sneak my running togs bag into the car without the eagle eye of Mrs TS spotting it!!
    We are off to a little hotel called the Howton Hotel on Ullswater - lovely spot and loads of "easy " hills to run before breakfast..............
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    TS and Tarka, enjoy your holidays. 

    Hill training's been mentioned recently and I can really see the benefits. The only drawback I can see is that the only achilles tenderness I've had was after quite a strenuous hill session so I've been a bit cautious since then. I did do a couple of easy miles yesterday and ran a bit harder up a hill for half a mile though.

    John and TS might have taken an interest in the penalty incident at St James Park last night. I've never been to a match like it. Just utter confusion and it wasn't until we got home that we found it was indeed a massive blunder by the ref. Anyone who follows football knows that if encroachment takes place (as it always does by the way), it results in the penalty being retaken, not disallowed and a free kick given to the defending team. Unbelievable.
  • john bateman 6john bateman 6 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2017
    TS - hard core fell running from you, please!


    Graham - yes I was kind of following the Newcastle game but my main focus of attention was on Huddersfield. They are still breathing down both of our clubs' necks and after the rotten experience of last season I just want to see us (and you) nailed down for promotion ASAP. Of course we'll (Brighton; I don't know about you but with your manager, support and budget you should be a good bet to stay up) come back down next season but let's just get there first!

    30 minute hilly run for me today. Rest day tomorrow and then Parkrun on Saturday. Target: 21:20.
  • ColumbaColumba ✭✭✭
    Hello all; I am back, and exhausted. That "holiday" is going to take a bit of recovering from.
    Christine, - lovely that you're back with us again. Keep posting.
    Tracey - enjoy that next marathon.
    Greetings, Tarka. I am 73, didn't start running until my late 50s (inspired by my children, two of whom were running fairly seriously). Had a painful knee which limited running last year; now gradually getting back into it.Parkruns are great, I love them but where I live (mid-Wales) there aren't any, so I only do them when visiting people who live fairly near one. 
  • Columba: welcome home. Your return coincides with some glorious (running) weather.


    Local parkrun for me today. Seriously delighted with the results: 20.50; 20th out of 313; 1st in category; 2nd in overall AG rating (78.32%).
    Reasons for improvement: harder training, hardly any wind on the prom, coffee before run (?) and a 5 mile brisk bike ride to get there. But the key reason was that I think the course was a bit short! However, I went through the first 2k in 8.07 so I certainly hit a good pace - and at least we all ran the same course. So I'm a seriously happy bunny.

    Off to see the real runners tomorrow at the Brighton marathon....................
  • Graham LGraham L ✭✭✭
    Columba, welcome back. Have a good rest if you can!

    John, brilliant time and AG. Well done. Do you use a GPS watch? I know they aren't 100% accurate but are a pretty good indicator of a short course. Is that why you suspected it wasn't the full distance?

    I did Gateshead parkrun this morning, the hilliest of the three local ones. There was still frost on the grass as we started. I felt a lot more confident about pushing a bit harder after a cautious start but still held back on the downhill sections. No complaints from my groin again though.

    I finished in 25:58, another very slow time for me but gradually moving in the right direction. Times still aren't a priority.

    A 25 mile bike ride with my step-daughter to look forward to in the morning.
  • Graham - many thanks. I'm not a great one for technology but I asked a few guys who had their gizmos handy at the end and they confirmed that the course was a tad short. I'd find a 25 mile bike ride a bit of a challenge right now - but I cycle like I run, so that might explain it. After my 5K I ended up chasing a fellow cyclist and came home totally spent. I didn't catch him by the way.
    I enjoyed watching the Brighton marathon. This was a new experience for me. I placed myself at the 16 mile mark and watched the 3.15- 4 hour finishers pass by. Some people were clearly finding it a bit hot to handle and there were quite a few walking. I wondered how they'd be feeling after another 10 miles and decided I was well out of it. My training partner was hoping a for a 3.40 and ended up with a 3.55 so was a bit disappointed - but it's still an awesome effort.
     



  • Columba
    welcome back - I hope you have now recovered!!!

    John
    excellent outing - well done. I hope the course wasn't too short. You have run it any number of times so would you not have noticed any changes in the route?
    Anyway as far as that parkrun is concerned your AG and placing stand up to scrutiny :)

    Very wise musings on the marathon - not something to be undertaken without proper preparation!!
    I saw a brief snatch of it on the news and it did look hot!!

    Graham
    its coming back together very nicely and a nice improvement in time over a more difficult course. It takes a while to feel confident enough to really stretch out adn push it on - I know I don't even after 4 months!!
    Lovely day for a bike ride - hope you were provisioned up!!

    Well I followed John's strictures and went fell running - although it was more like fell tourism with plenty of stops to (ahem) admire the views which, it has to be said, were spectacular of Ullswater and the surrounding mountains.
    Fuelled by a wonderful dinner and the best part of a bottle of very good red wine the night before I set off at 0700 for an assault of Halin Fell, but rather than a full frontal, it was more of a back door assault as I followed the contour path round to the shoulder which was gently rising before the more brutal bit. 
    The first mile had 185m of climb in it, the second, around the top of the fell had only 65m of climb and the third was all downhill!!!
    That was knackering and a sobering (Literally and metaphorically) experience as at on time I could have knocked that off quite easily and it shows just how weakened my legs have become.
    Next morning I went for a more sedate path around the lakeside, passing the appropriately named Geordie's Crag, and managing 7 miles in average 9:40m/m.
    The next day I awoke with DOMS in parts of my legs where I didn't know muscles existed so I concentrated on breakfast and refuelling!!

    Back on home soil this morning and did 5.25 miles in 48:25 (9:14m/m) with avHR  133 (68% WHR) and a max of 148

    09:36  123  139  legs needed wakening up!!
    08:42  132  146
    09:05  134  140
    09:04  134  139
    10:11  142  148  Hipps Hills seemed quite easy!!
    01:46  144  148

    that was actually quite pleasing given what I had put the legs though previously 
  • one of the nicest parts of the fell run was coming across a small herd of deer on the path, who, on hearing this lumbering, snorting creature approaching, looked up curiously from their grazing and then casually bounded about 50' up the steep slope.
    They then turned around and looked down superciliously at me as I struggled along below, their noses twitching to  get a whiff of my sweat stained body. Fortunately I was downwind of them otherwise they may have fainted with the pong!!!
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