Shades Marathon Training



  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Decided to do my virtual 10 effort this evening, rather than tomorrow morning.  I just figured it may be marginally quieter in the night than the morning.

    I donned the magic shoes and ran down to the front for a 1-mile warmup.  I had a long sleeved top on but took that off and tied it to a fence before starting as it was good conditions for me and I was fine in a T-Shirt; probably I'd have been fine in a vest.  I'd set a "Workout" on my watch as a 10k distance so I didn't have to keep looking at it and it would stop automatically after I'd reached the 10k, which was good as it was quite dark.

    I very quickly knew that it was going to be a reasonable effort and although it wasn't an "all out" effort in that I had plenty left at the end, I was very happy with the consistent splits, and I had no niggles.  My splits were 6:19, 6:32, 6:30, 6:33, 6:33, 6:27 and 6:19 pace for the last bit for 40:15 in total.  The course was out and back along the seafront so as before the 180deg turnarounds definitely slowed me down.

    I'm not quite sure how really but it seems I'm back in very similar shape to what I was before I was injured.  This shows that, along with some of my training at MAF in the last week where the flat miles have been pretty quick for me at my MAF HR.  So it's back to MAF as before and just get my head down and keep ticking over with the mileage over the next few weeks, and also try to get some hills in as well.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-Thats really good news that you feel you are back on form.I am going to do something similar in a couple of weeks if I can keep running.
    Big G - that's a great result, especially as it wasn't an an eyeballs out run, you must be really pleased with that.    I looked out the window last night and you're right, conditions were perfect and it was quiet.   

    What was your average MHR?

    You need to find another route for future MAF tests to avoid those multiple turnaround points.

    Rest day for me today which is just as well.   On Friday I finally got out the glute band that I bought in December and did 30 minutes of the exercises on the packaging.   I found it quite hard the band is sold as 'medium' but it's very strong.   Anyway I have DOMS today in quads/hamstrings and glutes.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited January 17
    Ian, sounds good to have a crack at something.  I found it helpful to just know where I was really, as I haven't done anything speedier for weeks.  

    Shades, thanks.  Unfortunately my HR monitor has misread it for the first mile, which is frustrating.  I wasn't monitoring it all on the effort but below is the trace, which says 177 but the first mile it was reading high as my HR definitely didn't peak at over 200!  I have my LTHR from a test (on the road) last year as 180, max 195.  Yeah, I need to find a different route.  Last night it was probably the best route locally as it just more or less eliminates the need to dodge cars or cross roads.  But I think I conservatively lost 20-secs on the 11x180deg turns I did, but I'm fine that for this effort.  As you say, I'm pleased with it, especially as (touch wood) I don't appear to be injured.  It was supposed to be a rest day from running yesterday, but I'm having it today instead.  The event has meant I've ran 51 miles this week instead of a planned 53, but again I'm fine with that.

    Big G - apart from the blip for mile one your HR is very stable, no drift, that shows you were fairly comfortable with the pace which is really good.    :)
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Great stuff, Rcouture - that's a solid run there. (I can't do pistols either, Shades...I can't even do a normal squat properly - too little dorsiflexion combined with a big arse).
    Well done on double digits, Ian!

    I took myself off to Wimbledon today for my hills...started on the park side with Arthur Road and Home Park Road (plus a little slog up the obscure Dairy Walk, a 13% footpath which is lined with flowers in the summer and very pretty. A few flowers still there today).
    Then I headed down to Worple Road which runs from Wimbledon to Raynes Park. Parallel to this, up by the common, is the Ridgway, and there are a number of roads that link the two, so like a nutter, I decided to run up and down all of them. I used to work up the top of one of them during the early noughties and I often run one of them when going to the common (which is currently too muddy to interest me at the moment) but I didn't realise the rest of them were all equally steep and nasty. 
    I did nine ascents here and it was tough - hit the 13 mile point during the last one. 
    The way back was mostly flat but I was so bushed it felt like a real slog. I logged 18 miles in the end which is the most I've done since before Dorney, taking me to 51 miles for the week (same as last week).
    Body was a bit niggly but got me through. 
    I was a bit disappointed not to hit 400m of climb - it certainly felt like more than that, but the Streatham Hills seem to give me more bang for my buck so I'll stick with them I think.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Big G - Well done on a rapid time. Is that close to your PB?

    Cal - Great run. You’re well keen on hills (in a way that I’m really not 😬)

    16 miles for me along the Thames. Went faster than I wanted to at 9:24 min/mi and 1bpm over Z2 as I had to get back home to mind the girls. Otherwise was a lovely run in the sun. Got a bit lost behind parliament and got some proper apocalyptic vibes with the empty streets. Anyway 6 days running in a row and record 52miles for me so definitely a rest day tomorrow. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Well done, Cal.  Sounds like a tough run there.

    Rcouture, well done on your run too.  It must be strange running in central London with it being so quiet.  My official 10K PB is very soft for me, at 42:37 from Jan 2017 (I don't do many 10ks!).  My official 5K PB in a race is 19:23, so you can see it's soft.  Yesterday's was actually my fastest 10K effort, with my second fastest being in July last year at 40:21.  They weren't official races though, but a good indication I hope as sub-40 in an official race is a goal of mine.
    Cal - I can only do a low squat like that if I'm using the TRX, so no chance until the gym reopens.

    That's a challenging long run to finish off a good week's training.

    Rcouture - great run from you too today, I guess the tiredness had gone.   Must have been lovely running the deserted streets, better than trying to negotiate the zombie 'walkers' that get in your way on your usual routes.

    Big G - you need to get that 10k PB recorded officially ASAP.   Must have been even more frustrating having to pull up in that race at Haldon last year.

    I've had a really lazy day but DOMS a lot better so hoping will be gone by the time I go for my morning run.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Cal-Very good effort up a lot of hills looking at your strava route.
    Rcouture-Well done on the 16 and your highest mileage week, always nice to hit a new milestone.
    7 miles today brought up 35 for the week, that is my highest since September 20th,so 16 long weeks.70mpw still seems a long way, but if I have no after effects tomorrow then that is 2 consecutive days for the first time since Xmas and my longest run, so hopefully I can very slowly increase the miles.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited January 17
    Ian, well done.  Decent mileage from you as well.  Fingers crossed you're on the come back trail too.

    Shades, yes, I really want to do a proper race to get an official time, but no chance for a while obviously.  I'm really not sure if that Haldon course is a fast one for me either as it's got a decent incline in it that we have to do a 2 or 3 times times and I much prefer flat and fast for this type of effort.  There was talk of a 5-mile race series but that's been cancelled too in the current circumstances, but I'll keep my eye on it to see if they redo it when we're allowed to race again.  But for now it's back to MAF just to see what happens over the next few weeks with my HR, although I'm really going to try and not obsess over it!

    I walked to work with OH for my outdoor exercise earlier (walked about 4.5 miles) and did about 45mins on the bike just to turn the legs over a bit.  Legs feeling quite good so hoping to get out for a run tomorrow, after a day off from running today.
    Ian - you'll get there, 35 is a good week and not far off 50, which is probably your base mileage figure.   I guess when injury free 50mpw is where you would start P & D.

    Big G - on a flat fast course, which you favour you'll go sub 40, but with a couple of undulations such as at Haldon you'd still do a significant PB. 

    My 10k PB is at Dornafield, don't know what the elevation is there but it's not flat  😄

    6 miles this morning, chilly but no frost or ice.   Good to see what is becoming my regular fellow early morning runners on this route.   DOMS has gone, just a slight twinge in the hamstrings if I bend down.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    10-miles to kick off the week this morning.  Chilly out but I had a nice run and the sea was very calm today.  Tri club are doing their Zwift session tonight so I'm going to give it a go.  I'm not totally sure if my phone and laptop are up to it technically, as I need to run Zwift and Zoom at the same time which is quite intensive, but I'll try it and see.  They are also going to do a 5k time trial in 2 weeks, and 2 weeks after that another 10k, so I'll keep those in mind and may well do them also, but the rest of my running will be at my MAF rate.
    Big G - it's going to warm up, supposed to be 11 degrees tonight and tomorrow morning too.   B)

    Please be careful if you're going to do those time trials, I think you're mad, that's how you got injured last time.   IMHO you need to continue with MAF until you reach the level to feel you want to move on.   Then any 'speedwork' should be a little part of a couple of runs a week at 80%MHR no more to start with and build up gradually from there.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I hear what you're saying.  I will definitely be careful and I haven't signed up yet anyway.  Can I just ask something though - if I was racing locally once every couple of weeks (not marathons), which would be fairly normal for me, would you advise against that also?  What I mean is, before my marathons, I was racing regularly all sorts of distances and thought that was actually a decent approach to speed work.

    I do want to say as well I don't think we can say it was the tiny amount of speed work alone that caused my injury.  I think it was a combination of many things - i.e., not taking enough days off, a stumble I had on the trails, doing too many doubles, doing zero stretching/strengthening, the tiny amount of speed work - that caused it.  If I was to hazard a guess, I think it was the zero strengthening and not enough rest days (both things I'm trying to address) that were the main factors, but I suppose we'll never know for certain.
    Big G -so soon after a prolonged injury period then I would definitely say no to short races.  And as there are no races right now that's a bonus as you don't need to make a decision whether to race but enjoy the time available to injury proof yourself a bit more.

    I think it might have been more than a tiny amount of speedwork.  Didn't you do several virtual races, a lactate threshold test all in a very short time having only done months of BT training and nothing else.  I can't see that a stumble/trip will cause an extensive period of tendonitis followed by PF.  Of course it's impossible to know for sure.  But if the doubles and/or the higher mileage was too much for you then you would have shown symptoms of overtraining before you did any faster stuff and you would not have achieved the PB times in training if you were suffering from overtraining as the most obvious symptom of overtraining is a drop in performance.

    I know you enjoy some speedwork but I seem to remember that you mentioned before that you frequently get injured when you start doing the faster stuff.   

    Of course it's your choice what you do, the most important thing is to enjoy your running so if you want to throw yourself into the faster stuff then do it.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, not overtraining as such, but I think I was probably burying my head in the sand a bit about achilles issues that were just slowly getting worse through the summer, and probably I should have tried to nip that in the bud earlier (possibly with rest days, strengthening etc).  I think I've said before, I always seem to be managing achilles issues, and although I don't mention them that often when things are going well, it's always kind of just there in the background.  I'm hoping the strengthening and days off will help a bit though - it does seem to be but I'm not really ramping the milage up at the moment.  Then the trip/stumble exacerbated it a bit more; I remember pulling up quite abruptly, walking for a bit, and then carrying on.  I still don't really know where the PF came from as I wasn't really running then anyway, so that was odd.  I think I was lucky that it seemed to go almost as quickly as it came, but I don't really know why I got it in the first place.  I was wondering if it was partly because I wasn't doing that much at all, and if that caused it.  What I do know though is I'm very, very pleased I've got the bike now as at least I can jump back onto that (presuming no pain when riding) if I do get a reoccurrence of something.

    Yes, certainly I know that P&D doesn't seem to suit me.  I've tried it before and when it gets to the regular, faster intervals I don't seem to cope very well.  But I'd like to think that I may cope better with it now as it's been 2-3 years since I tried it, but I've no plans to change to that currently.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    What is P&D?

    Well my ‘backup’ Newport marathon in April has been postponed to October which is a shame (especially as I only booked it a week ago 😬). No refunds but I can get a voucher for one of their other races which is fine. Good of them to give 3 months warning I suppose. I really hope Richmond at end of March cancel before I ramp up to 20mile long runs! Rest day today. 
    Big G - I didn't realise that through the summer you were having some warning signs from the achilles over a fair amount of time.
    Probably the faster running and the stumble were the final catalyst to a full blown injury.

    I don't know about the PF.   Weren't you just starting to do a little running.  It may have been that trying to protect the achilles you ran in a different way which put some extra stress on the PF tendon. Might have been the extra walking you might have been doing.   Anyway it was brief thankfully.

    Anyway you're doing well keeping up with the strengthening.  

    Rcouture - oh no, I was even having a rethink about entering Newport.   

    Isn't your March marathon the one they're using for the Olympic trials, that might mean they will avoid cancelling until closer to the date.  As far as I know Japan are determined to hold the Olympics in the autumn so any trials need to be a few months in advance.

    You've done such a long period of training to prepare for your first marathon you could get away with only a couple of 20 milers if you want to wait before increasing the distance of your long runs.
    Rcouture - P&D is Pfitzinger + Douglas marathon training.  Popular plans.

  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yes it is indeed that one but I guess they may decide to change it to an elite-only race where they can implement more controls. Who knows, I’ve had so many late cancellations that I think I’m immune to the disappointment! The vaccination process is going so well though that I haven’t given up hope. 

    Yes that’s a good point re the 20 milers. I’m up to 16 now and been going up in increments of 2 miles per week so might just bring that down to a mile. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    RCouture, P&D is a popular training book written by Pfitzinger and Douglas - Advanced Marathoning.  It has different plans I think up to 55 miles per week, 55-70, 70-85 and 85+.  It has phases in the plan where you start with a short base building phase, and it progresses through by adding more/different intensity for Lactate Threshold, Marathon Pace and VO2 Max sessions.  Pretty sure Steve on this thread has used it for a Half, and Ian is thinking of it.  I've had a go, too.  Lots of people do get great success following it, but I find the sessions hard in terms of picking up niggles.  Bad news about Newport.

    Shades, yeah, it's kind of always there.  In my mind, it's when I can't walk down the stairs pain free in the morning that's a real warning sign, but currently it's really good.  I.E., I can walk down the stairs first thing, I can touch it/squeeze without any pain and there's hardly any discomfort when running - it's probably 1 out of 10 or something, which is very good for me, as it probably won't ever be 0/10.
  • 1SteveMac1SteveMac ✭✭✭
    Ian - Are you starting P&D? Which one are you using?
    Cal - Sounds like a tough run.
    Big G - That's a great solo 10k effort.
    Shades - Shame about your Conne plan, but got to go back to what works for you.

    As my race got cancelled, I reduced mileage last week. So 18m and 11m on the weekend instead of longer. Finished the week with 58 miles.
  • mamafoxmamafox ✭✭✭
    edited January 18
    Hello Shadies, just had a monster skim so sorry I can't comment on everyone.

    Jelly - Sorry you have been so ill, hoping you completely recover soon.

    Big G - What a lovely thing to do, beautiful statue of Hiske.
    I had to put my old rescue dog down on Friday which was very upsetting. She had escaped on the Thurday night and got knocked over by a car. Someone kindly picked her up and took her to the vet and I got down there Friday afternoon. She was in a right state and there was no doubt that to put her to sleep was the only option but at least she knew I was with her at the end. 

    Well STILL no running from me. I have still this sharp pain to the side of my right knee and it hurts to bend down. I'm not even trying to run until it's gone as I'm petrified of making things worse but this is taking such a long time. I should probably see the doctor/physio but with the Covid situation I'm just waiting to see if it will get better on its own. 

    I'm also putting on weight. Someone sent me a photo of us all that was taken at Christmas and I have a fat arm. Well I have two fat arms but the other one was round OH in the photo (I'd had a bit to drink). They were burbling on about how lovely it was to see us all together again etc etc but I was just transfixed looking at the size of my arm. Anyway, another reason why I need to get running again  :|

    Will keep lurking away reading about your running but absolutely bugger all to report here  :/

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Really sorry to hear about your dog, MF :(  And also sorry to hear about you still not running.  Along with everything else going on right now it's not a great start to the year, but hopefully you'll at least get back to running soon.
    Big G - if you can keep the achilles to 1/10 that would be good.   But who knows, keep up the strengthening etc and  maybe one day it will go away completely.

    Steve - even with your race cancellation that's still not much of a cut back but you enjoy your training. 
    You did warn me the Conne plan was tough.

    Mamafox - oh that's so sad about your beloved dog.   So glad you were there when she was put to sleep.   It's heartbreaking though 😭.

    And still no running, you've really had a bucketful of bad luck lately.  I don't know what that knee pain is, have you tried Dr Google?
    I'm sure you haven't put on that much weight.  Just a bad photo angle.

    I hear there's a tighter curfew in France now, is that just the cities or does it apply to you too?
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    MF, so sorry, you must be heartbroken.
    You must be due some better luck soon.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Mama-Sorry to hear about your dog,hope you're ok.
    Steve-I haven't started yet,but I am giving it a go at some point this year,I think the up to 55m will be the one,might sneak the 70,will read it properly.
    Rcouture- Bad news about Newport.
    Didn't want to run 3 days on the run so had 45 mins on the bike,inc a 14 mile race,same route as 3 weeks ago but today I was 3mph quicker and 10 beats lower.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Had the Tri bike session this evening and really enjoyed it. I did about 15mins warmup before and then the session was 45mins at different intensities. I was running Zwift and Zoom on my laptop at the same time and it coped, although it was running quite hot at the end. It was just nice seeing people really, and hopefully I’ll join next week too. 
  • MF so sorry to read about your dog, hopefully wasn't suffering for too long as people took to the vets.  Glad you were there at the end, it's been quite sad hearing about how during these covid times people have said goodbye to their pet outside the vets and then shown a credit card terminal.  Hope you can get back running, the weight will drop off with sensible eat... it's tough as struggling myself with it.

    Shades well done for getting the resistance bands out, I need to set some time aside for s&c, its almost like I have too much free time at the moment.

    Rcouture how is the river paths round london,? are they still busy with runners/ walkers/ bikes? wish I lived or worked in London, would love to take advantage of running in the city whilst quiet.  Bad news about newport, awaiting to see how long lockdown lasts but it may be Dorney Lake for you.

    Big G my pf came about when I injured my hip and continued running, I would have changed my form around my hip and wondering if similar happened with some of your injuries this year?  Glad it seems to have gone and hopefully don't see it again.

    Ian well done on the 35, it's kind of worked to your advantage that there are no definite races on the horizon to get fit for.  Long my the recovery continue.

    Cal a great couple of weeks training well done, other than Richmond, have you got any back up plans in case of cancellation?

    Been away again, constantly battling with the demons in my head, hit a low last week where I couldn't be bothered to run.  Think I'm turning the corner again and been out Thurs, Sat and today despite going over on my ankle on tonights run, thankfully no damage but I did panic.

    Nice bit of flooding around us last week, this is about 300m away from me, the raised pavement on the right is about a foot tall, thankfully it didn't enter anyone's properties just back gardens
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