Shades Marathon Training



  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    edited April 28
    Shades - Yes this is what I was thinking that I should take the opportunity even if it’s an awful loop. However I’m not sure I’m even at peak fitness given the last few weeks have been lower mileage due to break after the delay and I haven’t done a long run for 3 weeks now. Given an end of May date would give me 2 weeks until taper I wonder if this would be selling myself a bit short? This is what my weekly mileage looks like on Strava (penultimate dot on the chart being 50km):

    Rcouture - thanks for the reminder why I don't use Strava  ;)

    3 weeks without a long run is nothing to concern yourself, many wouldn't do a long run 3 or 4 weeks out from a marathon.   It takes about 3 weeks for a training run to really have an effect, those that run long runs closer to a marathon do so as mental reassurance that they can cope with the distance. What you need to do first is get rid of that calf niggle.   You're in great shape aerobically and you'd only need a couple of weeks back doing 40ish mpw to top you up again.   Also you've not yet run a marathon so to finish will get you a PB.   When you're back running, I would suggest no speedwork at all if you are going to race on the 29th, too risky after the calf niggle and it's the MAF runs that will get you to the finish line not the speedwork.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, that's right, it's soon strung out on the course and will presumably be even more so with the waved starts.  Presuming conditions on the day are good, I should be okay for 5:30-6:00 (I did 6:06 at the 34-mile version, whereas this year's is 32).   I'd like a sub-5:30 although I do feel that could be a challenge.

    Shades, I had a feeling you may say that about sub-5 :)  Honestly though I think that's a big ask.  It would mean getting to marathon point at 4hrs, which in itself is tough for me I think, whilst still trying to do 10min/miles over the last 6 miles, which I know from last time was a massive struggle!  I'd genuinely be very happy with sub-5:30, presuming conditions etc etc are favourable.  I did take it quite cautiously last time and would be slightly more aggressive this time (but certainly not go crazy!), although I still think sub-5 is a tough ask for me.

    RCouture, good news that Richmond are trying to come up with an alternative.  I too think you should go for it.  What you may find on the lapped courses is that you will always have people in sight and that is motivating I find.  I.E., faster runners will overtake and generally say "Hi" but also you'll have slower runners in front of you that you can use to help pace yourself (i.e., "I'm doing well.  I'll try and catch that chap up by the end of the lap").  As long as there's plenty of space and it's easy to overtake, it can work well from that point of view.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Big G-I might be talking myself into a better race than I'll do,but I'm thinking I may do better at DD than last time because I've struggled recently,I tried to run more hills than I should have last time,so this time I will walk them,and as I know I'm not too fit,I will keep my pace more sensible,so the last 15m may not turn in to a shuffle again,thats what I'm telling myself anyway.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yes that all makes sense. Will wait to see what this new course is and take it from there. Was looking forward to this 10k and half in May but mara is the priority. I could really do with no more race scheduling changes, I basically have OCD when it comes to planning so not ideal.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Ian, yes, I know what you mean.  I think in my case I'll try and get to 13 miles a bit quicker.  I think 1:45 or 1:50 should still feel very easy for me, whereas last time I was a bit over 2hrs.  Then just walk the hills but try to get to marathon point closer to 4hrs (last time I was a bit over 4:30).  So that would be a big difference compared to last time, and then just do my best on the last 10k.  I know we can't control the weather but as we know, it can have a huge impact at this race and I'll just have to assess that on the day.  What I've said above is if the conditions are pretty good, as they were last time for me.
    Big G - sub 5, (obviously depending on conditions etc)  is a reasonable target for you.   At my pace I would expect to be about 20-30 minutes slower at marathon point than a recent flat marathon.   At your pace it would be less, say 15-20 minutes, that leaves you one hour 15/20 do do the final 10k.  I think you're being over cautious again, however, whatever pace you decide to run you should do a great PB.   I didn't realise you'd done the first 13 in over 2 hours last time, far too slow for you.   ;)

    Ditto Ian, although I realise you may not have had the preparation you would have liked.   At full fitness you'd be doing sub 4:45/5 hours too.

    Rcouture - you've definitely had more rescheduling changes than anyone should have to suffer.   We're all a bit OCD when it comes to races.  
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Wow, that is ridiculous at Windermere. People are going to be in all sorts of trouble. 

    Shades, what you say about your PBs is a bit worrying for me as I'm turning 54 soon. I was hoping I could keep improving a bit longer, although with my current injury I am not sure I'll be able to do much this year.

    Yesterday was a scheduled rest - I did go to the gym and had the lovely experience of getting a visual migraine while I was there. Trying to bench press with a psychadelic lightshow going on is not the greatest. (I did finish my workout - fortunately the lightshows don't last all that long and I only get a mild headache with them but I do tend to feel off for the rest of the day).
    I was in quite a lot of discomfort during the night so decided not to run today, so back to the gym it was. Did 20 mins on the elliptical and some glute and back stuff. I hope I'll be able to run tomorrow, I'm getting very frustrated now.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    As suspected the rescheduled marathon will be at Kempton Park race course on the 29th. The course hasn’t been sent out yet but I’m assuming it’s 5k loops since the half (run with a 10k and 5k at the same time) I entered a couple of days later at the same venue is 5k loops. Hopefully they can come up with a more interesting configuration but it’s a racecourse at the end of the day. I’m going to do it though, I’ve waited so damn long and fingers crossed there’s no reason for it not to happen as it’s private land. Went out for 10miles at MAF this evening and calf issue seems almost gone. Not risking anything though with the promised land around the corner so no more major speedwork till race 😬.
    Cal - take no notice of the age of 54, I was just making a point to Robert.   At the age of 54 it was my two hundredth plus marathon, I ran my first marathon at 38.   They say it takes 10 years of hard training to reach marathon peak, and by hard training they mean the peak training that most of us only manage for a short time maybe not even once a year.   You're still in the early years of your marathons and I think you have plenty of PB's in you.

    Rcouture - that's great news, I know it's not an ideal course but you will finally make your debut.   As you are so well trained I think you will find the laps easier to deal with than you expect.

    Great news on the calf.

    BTW on Sunday one of the faster runners flew past me wearing those Saucony Endorphins.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    edited April 28
    Shades - To be honest as much as the course it’s the lack of spectators and ‘event’ feel that make it feel a bit lacking as a first one. But it’s the world we live in and I don’t have the patience to wait. I’ll just see if work/life will let me get away with doing Brighton in September too for more of an atmosphere and if not, I’ll be applying to everything I can for next year! I’m very excited anyway and just hope the mental side of the loops doesn’t do me in.

    Oh and the endorphin speeds are magical shoes. The closest feel to the Nike Next % in terms of bounce but more comfortable. They are just sooo ugly and trust me I am not Mr fashion by any means. 
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    I went for my first Trotters session tonight, first one in over a year (I don't regularly in any case).  It was billed as 5x1k at 10k pace with 60-secs recovery, but it's not measured and we were kind of making the loop up as the first interval was short.  Still, I was happy with the effort and really I felt well in control, although the recoveries ended up being 90secs+.  Legs still slightly tight after the marathon still, but otherwise pretty good.
    1) 0.53m - 3:26(6:28/mile)
    2) 0.6m - 3:50(6:22/mile) 
    3) 0.6m - 3:53(6:25/mile) 
    4) 0.61m - 3:49(6:16/mile)
    5) 0.61m - 3:40(6:03/mile)

    I did this session as I haven't managed to get a place in Thursday's 5k, and it was nice to be back.  I also went along as I knew Chair wanted to present the awards from last year, so I picked up my Committee Cup award too :) 
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Big G - I noticed when I was combing through the Cheshire results for my club round-up, there was one of your clubmates, Jamie Barnett, quite high up - is that YT? 
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited April 28
    Well played Sunday Shades and Big G, difficult to run a marathon well off a low mileage build up.

    Big G - you have more to give in a mara for sure if you are running 1ks today.

    I read that young trotters twitter earlier and saw some of his ling runs and tempos. He seemed to underperform a bit sunday given he was running 16 and 17m sub 2.20 pace in long runs. Looks to me that he left hs marathon in training, is he coached ? He needs to slow down some of his long runs, you cant do big chunks of mp pace every week. Better off with some mp +10%.

    I had a solid day sunday with a pretty even paced 2.58. I reckonef i was around 2.55 fit but the wind at Goodwood was never going to allow that so i aimef 2.58. However whilst even paced, i reckon i was trying twice as hard late on.....still as much fun as you can have with your clothes on.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    TR, no he's not coached.  He also does all of his training on his own, mainly around a flat 1k loop.  I can't help but think if he went out on more undulating routes he'd get stronger.  He also didn't taper all that much, but I know he thinks in the past he's tapered too much.  I guess he's still learning what works for him, but he just didn't feel 100% on the day.  His goal was sub-2:20 so he is a bit disappointed I think, although it was a PB and his first time under 2:30.  Well done on your time too - I did dip into the 3:15 thread and read your report on there, which was a great read.

    Cal, yes, that's him.  A post of mine on the pg3164 had a bit of a write up and a couple of pics via the Trotters news page.
    Rcouture - we actually had a few spectators on Sunday at Shepperdine, on the out section through a village and then a few supporters sprinkled around the course.   I hate the screaming crowds of London, I prefer a few spectators here and there, and a few on the finish straight is good too.

    Have you seen the new Sunset colours of the Endorphins?   But colour aside if you find them magical then I don't think you can ask for more of a shoe.

    I think you'll cope well with the laps at Kempton, you will have company to run with and that makes all the difference.

    Big G - speedy km reps there and congrats on your award.

    TR - thanks.   You did well considering that wind at Goodwood, although we had a headwind in places too it wasn't too bad.

    Re YT, I hate seeing that he does his long runs with a lot at MP (faster than MP really) round a boring industrial estate, I'd rather see him go and do a slower long run over an undulating, even hilly course.    His last marathon he thought he'd got the taper all wrong and it spoiled his race so he was changing that this time.

    7 miles today, I'm still not fully recovered from Sunday, I'm about 2 days behind my normal recovery time.  :/  Flat today but I felt that achilles twinge up the little hill to home and then felt it stretching post run.   However, there is no soreness at all on waking which I always take as a real sign of an achilles injury.

    Gym today.
    I didn't realise that the guy that won the Cheshire Elite race was one of the pacers  :open_mouth:

    Cheshire Marathon pacer opts to keep running – and wins the race (

    No drinks and one gel !
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    TR, I was going to ask you about your +10% approach actually, but didn't over on the sub-3:15 thread, but you've mentioned it here now so I'll ask here :)  On my marathon I averaged around 7:45min/miles, so +10% is about 8:30.  Just as a matter of interest, what kind of sessions are doing, and how often, when incorporating that kind of pace?
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    edited April 29
    Shades - That’s Jake Smith who also paced the marathon trials recently and was at the half marathon world championships they held late last year.  Think he is a future star as quite young. On the endorphin speeds I like them so much I plan on buying another pair but they are coming out with a Speed 2 sometime soon so will wait for that so I can get a discount on the current versions. Interesting that I can’t imagine going back to stability shoes now even though I was told by several shoe shops that I overpronated heavily and needed them and ran with them for a good 18 months to start. 

    This is what my speeds look like and the photo doesn’t do justice to how fluorescent they are 😬:

  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    RCouture, you see, I quite like those.  I think I prefer it to the white version they had at first....

    7-miles nice and easy for me this morning, by the way :)  
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited April 29
    Its a shame for that lad as he is obviously putting a lot into this. He should get a coach, he would then be doing what he needs to do rather than what he wants to do. If he can do 17m at sub 220 pace then he should be able to run a mara that pace for sure. He is too keen to see how fast he can run every sunday and post it up on strava i guess. To be 10 mins outside of target time is a big miss at his level, best part of 2m.

    Big G - i do some P and D style long runs where you run the first 1/2 20% slower than mp (im usually slower than 20%), and then pick it up for the second 1/2 for approx mp +10%, its an honest pace but not too tough. This isnt every week, but most weeks. Its too tough to do it everyweek. I think i will do something like 2 +10, 1 mp and 1 time on feet long run going fwd accross a 4 week spread. With no build up races i did 20m inc 13.1m ~mp 3 weeks out, that came out at 255 pace, on a rolling route. On that day its simply 13.1m pretty much as hard as i can go on the day. Its a good indicator, i also did a couple of 10m at mp.

    I used my speeds for a session of 3min reps a few weeks back, they were very soft (too soft?), and didnt feel much quicker than my rides. But id need to do a tempo in them to see. I was pretty sore immediately after as they are very light and they seemed narrow. Will try them again soon, but probably too narrow to run long in, and i font usually find sny shoes narrow, might just need breaking in, as supershoes are morr fitted.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    TR, thanks for that.  I'm always learning stuff :)  I do have P&D but haven't gone through it recently.  Regarding YT, I did notice he came off Strava but I think he posts to social media what he considers his main sessions.  But when he was on Strava he was doing loads of 7min/mile or slower runs, which I suppose is easy for him?  I know he strung together a decent stretch of 100 mile weeks, but the details aren't available; unless he's got a new account, nothing is public since Nov 2020.  When I initially scanned down through the results list looking for him I feared he'd DNFd again, but then I saw his name and was pleased he at least finished it.

    We've had this discussion on here before, but it must be quite hard these days with all the social media pressure.  The thing with YT is that he posts about how he's feeling and quite personal running-related stuff sometimes, which I can't help think adds to the pressure.  I commented on here a year or two ago that she should come off Strava.  One problem is that he gets a lot of comments, often from people who don't know what they're talking about.  The FOD Runner on YouTube had a poor (for him) run with a 2:55 run at Shepperdine and there are a few muppets on his channel giving him stick too.  I know YT was supported by Pro Direct Running (they're local to us) - I'm not sure if he still is, but I guess they wanted him to post stuff as a bit of promo too?  I don't know the details about that though.

    I do think he has a better time in him than that.  As well as a coach I think he'd benefit from a running group.  There's a decent group in Bristol, but nothing that close by for him here as he's a cut above the vast majority locally, probably partly why he does all his training on his own (although I think he prefers training on his own anyway).

    One final comment is that I think he only/mainly wants to race in what he thinks are perfect conditions.  He just wants flat and fast, whereas going out and winning out right some local races on slightly more challenging terrain I think would help build his strength and learn about pacing on rolling terrain etc etc.  Obviously not easy though this last 12 months with no races!
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    TR - I actually had something similar in that the first couple of runs in them, admittedly plodding about at MAF, I couldn’t see anything special. But they came into their own on long runs with some effort put in as well as tempo runs. Like the next percent, you look at your watch and realise you’re 30s per mi faster than perceived effort. Not tried them at 10k and below pace so might not do the business for faster folks like yourself. 

    Big G - We have very different tastes 😀
    Rcouture - they don't look too bad in that photo.   Could be a lot worse, they could be pink 😮

    Big G - aren't there some fast runners at the Tavistock  Run Project?   I see them winning/highly placed in events.   But even if YT has transport that's a fair trek for training.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Sounds like he defo needs a coach he has plenty of room for improvement. If he is a bit remote then msybe He should get an on line coach, that would make him do the right things in training, once the results come then he'll see the benefits.

    I'll see how the speeds go, the narrow fit puts me off getting the pro.
  • Booked my jabs, first one Monday down at Ulverston then back again in July. Sat nav says 1 hour drive which is yeah lol more like 90 mins. Hence i allowed time and went with a 11ish slot both days. Second one is the Monday before my 2nd marathon of the year.
  • Ian5Ian5 ✭✭✭
    Rcouture-I'm with Big G and i'd happily wear them,a lot of my trainers have colours,I'm happy to wear anything running.
    Shades-I seen he was the pacer,I'm not too sure on it to be honest,there would have been prize money on offer,I'd guess,and if his contact said to pace to 30k then drop then that's what he should do,but if it didn't then he's entitled to go for it.
    I've decided to go for the 5k tomorrow,for the first time I genuinely have no idea of what to aim for,as its 5k I can just go for it and see where it takes me,I'm really hoping I'm not last though,esp as it's bring streamed.
    TR - no point is paying that sort of money for a pair of shoes unless they're a perfect fit.   Did you wear your Ride 13's for Goodwood?

    Keith - that's great news on your jab   :):smile:

    Ian - I love a maverick and great to see him get the win.   Pacers are usually asked to run a certain pace to a minimum distance, sometimes they'll stay on a little longer to help out, but they are not usually contracted to stop.   In the big marathons it's happened a few times, Abu Dhabi 2019, the pacer went on to win and picked up 100k.   I think in a race a few years ago in the USA the pacer went on to win and became the USA champion.    I'm not that keen on seeing pacers in marathons although they're generally very popular with the runners.   

    Good luck for tonight's race.   I guess impossible to go 'easy' for a 5km, so just go for it.   :)   

    7 miles today, cold and frosty again.   :#  Had a good run, legs feel fully recovered from marathon today and a bit of bounce there.   Yesterday in the gym I did calf raises on the leg press and not a twinge in my achilles during or after and no discomfort on waking this morning.   But on a short incline during my run today and the last little hill to home still have the pain there and again on stretching post run.   Annoying as I was hoping to do a hilly long run this weekend but better stay on a flattish route.

    Gym later  :)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited April 30
    Just under 10-miles for this morning on a fairly hilly route.  Felt quite good, although it was cold out.

    It's a bit odd as I've been wearing the same shoes I wore for the marathon on my runs this week and had no issues with my toes.  Maybe as I was "racing" that put more pressure on them, even though the route was flat.  I have ordered a half a size up which should hopefully be here today, but if they feel too big I'll send them back and will have to have a rethink about DD.  If they do feel okay though, I'll probably try them at Plym Trail this weekend, and then put them back in the box for DD.

    I've realised I've not had a day off since the marathon, but I've not done that many miles so I'm feeling okay.  At most it'll be a short run tomorrow, possibly to test the new shoes if they're here, and Plym Trail is more of a DD-training run for me; I envision it'll be in the region of 30mins slower (maybe more) than the weekend.  I may even run it to HR as a bit of a test/experiment.  Plan is to finish feeling quite good, and then aim for 50-60ish next week, so we'll see how that goes.  Although I've felt okay generally from about Wednesday this week, I've not felt that I've wanted to do any Zwifting so haven't been on the bike for a week.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Shades - yes, i used the new pair you pointed me at. They are a little firm for a mileage shoe, but feel good when racing and feel nippy. I think they are a good non-racing shoe race day going to get a pair of Next% for my autum marathons as i want to remain competitive AG well inside GFA cut offs, but carbon shoes or not could be the difference soon between making the cut ofg or not for some folks.
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