HADD training plan

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  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Run Wales - welcome ... pretty good summary of HADD

    Brian, I'm basing my targets on my recent 10M time. I ran the half in September and have built mileage and improved since then. Also the half was my first race and my HR went through the roof so i bottled it image as i was fairly confident of something close to 1:40 at the time.

  • Mace - I never watch the HR during a race...... I sometimes wear the gear but turn off the reading for HR.... I run faster that wayimage

  • mace wrote (see)
    Chick, that does seem a lot of miles considering it doesn't seem that long ago you were recovering from a mara in which you pb'd !? Hope easing off will do the trick.


    Marathon was on October 7, so quite a while ago. I'm base building right now and will start with proper marathon training on Jan. 14. That 61 mile week was a bit of an accident as I missed my long run the week before due to icy rain and conditions too horrid even for Yaktrax...  so I basically did 2 longish runs in 7 days image

    Hiya RunWales image

    VT: good luck with the colonoscopy. Boy, -12F is mighty cold image

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    VT - blimey that's cold, i bet that shower was bliss image  The doc thing is to do with the blood ? Are you still getting it ? I've experienced similar in the past ( not often though, and very slight ) and i'd say if it's not a regular thing you don't have a problem. I've not researched it though ..... it's never bothered me enough to.

    AGF - it was my first race so used it as a comfort dummy image My HR went mental so i panicked a bit and took it easy but had a great race as from halfway nobody went past me and i ran a 3min neg split ( 55 + 52  ) image image

    A grew a pair for my next race and ran to target pace image 

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Chick - Oct 7th ?? Blimey, time flies when you're 'hadding' fun image

    ps. hope your pace has lost it's shitness now image

  • Another week done and dusted and a distance pb to boot, 48.4 miles @145(76%), have a good weekend guys and gals image

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Fine mileage Stewart, a few weeks of that and i'd expect to see a nice WOW moment to reward you for your dedication.

  • SC, cracking stuff and weekly mileage! Keep knocking on the door and it will open eventually.

    Stock recovery run for me. Seems I am back to near normal after the Xmas blip. Less than 1000 beats per mile.

    8.26 miles in 68:13 @ HRav 120

  • brian I have seen a few posts here an there but I dont tend to follow the sub 3 thread much during the off season so tend to miss alot an so not aware of coro's background- enlighten me image



    Also well done on the sub 1000beats a mile. thats efficient stuff that is. I'm hovering around 1150 at the moment.



    today I nearly managed to get sub 8:00pace for 70% effort but from 6-15.78m the hr crept up from 70% to 75% just decided to maintain 8min pace rather than 70% (140bpm) once excess pounds have burned off I'll stick to hr. I just find I cant get into a rythym if I go slower than about 8min pace.



    Been doing high mileage to try an burn off the lard. 60m so far this year.
  • Mace, Brian, I'll keep knocking at that door and if it doesn't I'll take a sledge hammer to it!



    Do you think I should keep Hadding until say 6 weeks out from my HM? 10 weeks this Sunday
  • Why not keep hadding till 6 weeks out from the HM or even later SC since a half marathon is 99% aerobic an 1% anearobic then surely an 80% run amongst your 75% running will be pretty much as good as you can get.



    Maybe brian can help here. Similar to sc'squestion I'm begining to wonder if next october (chester marathon) i'd be best doing purely hadd training an nowt else right up untill taper time.
  • Run Wales wrote (see)
    From reading.. I think that they key to good long distance running is
    • anaerobic running ability is almost unnecessary for decent half/full marathon running
    • When you train below the LT (preferably just below), then you build up and optimise your aerobic running system (e.g. increasing mitochondria function) - burning body fat, burning it with oxygen, which is very efficient (rather than the inefficient anaerobic chemical breakdown of glycogen in the muscles)
    • If you train above the LT, this does NOT train your aerobic function (or at least, it doesn't train it very efficiently... I assume that it gets some benefit, although I'm not sure I've seen that written down in Hadd articles.)
    • I had thought that if you go faster than the LT pace, then you give MAXIMUM training to your aerobic system  -  and ALSO train your anaerobic system.  I think that the fundamental point of Hadd, is that this is a common and very substantial misconception.

    If you can read those carefully, and tell me if you think I've correctly grasped it, I'd be really grateful   Especially the 4th bullet point.

    If anyone cares to expand on these, or add to them, that would be great.

    Cheers

    Thanks for your comments Brian & Mace, I'm a bit surprised I grasped it quite so well.  Just to be annoying, I'll ask some supplementary questions!

    • At roughly what distance does anaerobic capability become particularly important?  10K?
    • I presume that to be a pretty decent marathon runner, you need only aerobic ability.... but that to be a really good runner, you need to spend some time training in above LT.  True?
    • If you're running above LT... can anyone quantify HOW inefficient the training of the aerobic system is.  I presume that it is not 100% efficient, but above zero %.  But roughly how efficient/inefficient is it??
    • I did say that running at below LT meant you were combining body fat with oxygen....  but the question arises ... why would you need to build up your carbs / glycogen levels prior to a marathon, if you're only burning fat?    Is it purely that you need to use some anaerobic running if you want to optimise your race time, or is there another story?

    Thanks a lot for your time

  • Stewert.

     as you know I am doing the Loch Ness marathon in Sept, I will only HADD train, no icing on this cake for me this time, see what transpires.

    It will be my 3rd road marathon and to be honest I feel I am still on a learning curve.

    So I am with Andy on this one.

  • Run Wales -   Point number 4.  Is a contradiction of point 3 surely!?!

  • Hi Mace,

    Only had the blood that one day. Have been tip top in every way since then so likely a blip. If you look on the web, it's been shown that distance runners can get ischemia (loss of blood/oxygen) to the colon during long and/or very hard runs (blood diverted to muscles and cardiovascular system to support the run). Loss of oxygen to the colon can lead to cell death/sloughing...this causes bleeding. Many runners report this. Usually the scenario is after a long, hard run, you feel like you're going to explode (runners trots) and some blood can be seen when going you know what. That's likely what happened to me, but the extra test is to rule out out inflammatory bowel syndromes like Crohns/IBS or diverticulitis or worse polyps (precancerous or cancerous). The advice I've been given is to rule out all the bad stuff cause it's all managable if caught early.

  • Today it was 25 F and windy which = balmy conditions image

    17 miles of goodness = no tingling in my legs  image

    2 days of running this week for 31 miles; hopefully I can hit upper 40s after sat/sun. The two long runs should be refundable for mitochondria in a few weeks time (I hope). I think you qualify as well Chick.

  • Good mileage there vt. Can't get over them temperatures. Although can't get over the temperatures here in january. Actually ran in shorts an t-shirt tday. Who'd out thought I could try an catch the sun on a January day.



    irrelavant to hadd has anyone got "THE BOOK" by that I mean Jamie Olivers 15 min meals? I got it for crimbo an the family have had something different every day since boxing day. What a book. Its like how to cook for dummies.
  • spen71 wrote (see)

    Run Wales -   Point number 4.  Is a contradiction of point 3 surely!?!

    Hi Spen71, I guess that you're responding to my first post of last night (am I right?)...  in which case I could have been clearer.

    I meant that, prior to reading Hadd's stuff, I had PREVIOUSLY thought that running faster than the LT pace would fully train the aerobic system (as your heart and lungs are working overtime), and on top of that, it would also train your system for dealing with lactates etc....   I was pretty sure that this was wrong, and was asking people to confirm it, and to confirm that  Hadd believed this to be a very common and fundamentally important misconception... at the heart of his 'teaching'.

    I did read a link from very very early on this thread, and I'm sure it gave some science behind it.  I'd be interested to know if any important scientific people dispute this fundamental tennet of the Hadd training method.

    cheers

  • Morning all,

    SC, AtD and all you fellow Hadders, regarding the question re how far to hadd and when to switch into more traditional training. My twopennorth is this will ultimately depend on the individuals experience and background.

    When hitting the longish 80% runs the improvement curve is initially steep. As we do them regularly I think we tend to plateau ie. When the last 3 or 4 runs come out at the same pace. At this point I would suggest moving up (by 5 beats or 3%) OR increasing the number of 80% runs to 2 per week. If marathon training the 1 run of 83% is more appropriate as this then becomes your MP run.

    This approach should bake a pretty good cake.

    If this approach has been used before by the runner, and the mara times have plateaud, then I think a period of icing would be the next logical step.



    Roy, you are thinking along the right lines. It may take a number of years/attempts before you feel that you have hit your potential as a marathon runner.



    Runwales, not sure I can answer your questions. There is a great deal of the science I am not confident with. I think you may've grasped the concept though.
  • brian, runwales my personel opinion on anearobic training is thats it's a bit of a pointless exercise because in race sports scientists reckon that anaerobic fitness is only accounting for about 5% in the 5k distance. This is even less as the distance increases to the point where it's less than 1% in the marathon. I've come to the conclusion that the best thing I can do for races of 5k up is just to get the miles in and consistently and as long as I'm at racing weight I'll pb. This has allways been the case over the last 4yrs.



    runwales I hate to admit it but since starting intervals in about july I dont feel like I've actually had any benefit. Ye my perception of easy had changed slightly but I haven't actually had a clear pb yet. I was doing 400's with the aim of achieving a sub 5min mile and just as I was almost able to do that mile I started training with the local AC on a monday nights. Typically doing 5-6mile of intervals. At first it seemed okay, just about getting through sessions, but I statted to pick up one niggle after another.

    I would put this niggle....recover....niggle down to feeling a bit worn down week after week. Mileage I can cope with. But intense volumes of anaerobic stuff seems to take take to much out of system.

    conclusion I don't believe anaerobic training "damages" fitness like hadd says but it's the way it hinders all other training which makes me unsure about long speed work sessions. My training partner has gone from strength to strenth on the sessions but I'm not completely convinced after having all the niggles.
  • AtD, forgot to answer the coro question. Very simply put, he runs 2.30 marathons off 45 miles per week. Think you may class him as talented.
  • 16miles in 2.04

    Middle 10 at 80% at 7.15 pace.

    Undulating 1.6 mile loop x 10



    Buggered!
  • Okay fair does. brian that coro is good has he got a lot of years training behind him perhaps. In any case bloody quick though.

    17.6m today. 76 so far this year.
  • Thanks AtD

    I'm still trying to get my head round this, and I suspect that others have breezed into this thread in the past with similar questions.   At least I can honestly say that I've done several hours research prior to enquiring, so it must be down to me being thick rather than lazy!

    One thing I can't quite grasp is that hadd training seems to want you to do lots of miles at slower than MP. Indeed quite a bit below.

    But if, as you say, a marathon is almost totally aerobic, then why not do your training at your marathon pace... or extremely close to it.   I can't quite square this up.

    cheers

  • RW -    The elite runners will run 3 mins slower than marathon pace a lot of the time.

  • RW..Lower speed is all about..

    1) injury avoidance whist maximising mileage

    2) finding the sweet spot for maximum physical adaption. (Extra capillaries/ fat burning efficiency etc)

    3) mixture of 1&2



    That's how I understand it.
  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    well said AGF

    RW - MP is the top end of aerobic  - Hadd wants you to squeeze from below, improving pace at lower heart rates, thus allowing room for improving pace at higher heart rates.

    Running a mara will shred every muscle, including your heart.  If you're running a weekly distance of 2 or 3 times a mara, at mara pace, you won't last more than a week...

     

  • Well said teknik
  • AtD, injury nightmare is a very common reason for turning to Hadd. A few on here (incl VTrunner) have done this in near desperation.

    Bringing us on to the answer to runwales question- why do we not run all our miles at race pace?

    Injury, and recovery time.
  • RUNWALES your not being thick at all. In all fairness I think the the hadd is a bit of a head smasher to get your head round. I downloaded the original PDF document of intsrnet and read literally about 15times an couldn't get it so initially asked a few Q's and thankfully peopleon here were happy to help. Now that I get the general idea I do try an help. Few days ago I did just print the pdf so I can look at it properly. ask away thats the point of this thread.



    You grasped it pretty well i'd say. I would defo agree with the other posts about elites training alot slower. I have a book about various Kenyans and most of em do masses of miles at 8min pace or slower. One guy 2:05marathoner does 150mpw at 8min mile with 1 interval session. So its worth adding any slow miles you can.
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