HADD Training Method



  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers guys, what I thought really, don't ignore the hills but back of a little really
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    I did a 20 miler this morning. Beautiful day for it.   A couple of small but notable climbs (not least up Symonds Yat for anyone knowing that)...  and walked those.  Managed to keep HR below 70% HR Max throughout (obviously excluding the odd blip).  Took me 4 hrs 32 minutes.  Blooming heck!  But it didn't feel really easy, despite the slowness... so I'd say that it was doing me a lot of good.

    Miles 17-20 were pretty slow!
    NorthEnder - I finished Worcester marathon today with a friend of mine that is doing the same night marathon as you.  He did it last year and said it's a brilliant event and was explaining the start time so he had only the last few miles in the dark, unfortunately he did fall on his face in that section, broke his teeth and glasses but he still said it was a great event!

    Did you tell us which ultra you are going to do?  If so I don't remember that ;)

  • Evening all, nice and busy on here, which is nice to see.

    I managed to get a Parkrun in, thanks to work sliding my shift back to a 10.30 start yesterday. 
    The theory / myth being that an attempt at a 5k PB should be on two to three weeks after a Marathon due to all of that previously training in the legs.

    Linford Wood Parkrun (Milton Keynes)

    My 5k PB was 24.34 going into this, with 7 PB's in a row (including a guaranteed 20 mile race distance which I had never raced at before), so in theory I should of been confident of beating my time set in late January.

    I changed my usual ritual of having a Guinness the night before a race, but instead replaced it with a can of Caffrey's which was a mistake!
    I decided to have an extra hour in bed rather than get up three hours beforehand to eat breakfast, so did a Race without any fuel for the first time.
    I ended up surprisingly going a number 2, twice before I left which was good, but then on warm up went another two times in well placed bushes! It must of been my pre-race drink the night before that caused this.
    So I warmed up with 1.50 miles interrupted with two stops @10:17, put my wind breaker back in the car, and then did two 160 meter strides in 0.76 miles to get my legs moving @10:04. This was also mile 3 of the race to help familiarize myself with the course that I set the PB in January.

    I got to the start with the sun burning down and the back of my vest surprisingly covered in sweat from my warm up! The field look much more bigger than the one that was drew in chilly January, in what was a very new Parkrun.
    So with only two mins to rest before the race I slotted into the row 2 which was fine in January with maybe half as many runners, but maybe a little quicker company than my time should be in with this much deeper field.

    Mile 1 8:00
    So we were off, and after starting in the top 20, glanced down at my watch and decided I was going a little quick at 7:27 av pace, so then spent the next mile trying to not go as quick as others around me on this mainly downhill stretch as I may pay for this in mile 2, when the only two hills would hit me.   
    Mile 2 8:14
    I would guess I was now in about 60th after letting others go past, telling myself my stamina would reel these guys in in the last two miles, and sure enough I started gradually picking people off 1 by 1 , with the odd runner still going past me. The two hills slowed me down a little, and I was also not helped by a runner who seemed intent on staying ahead of me, hearing me coming, and then cutting me off at each overgrown bush or corner, not leaving any room for me.
    Mile 3 8:10, Mile 3.07 @6:04
    Not much happened for most of this mile, its in woods that twist and turn and would easily have runners lost if stewards and signs were not so good, another reason why I did this in the warm up. I picked a few off, but the turned the corner and my after burners seemed almost empty, and was surprised as about 5 runners swooped past, with myself only overtaking two.
    Official Time - 24:57.... 23 seconds slower than my PB.

    Not quite a PB, but not that far off it considering a few things were not in my favour such as toilet issues and warmer weather plus my longest run since the marathon being just 3.72 miles.
    No HR stats were recorded.

    Onto my weekly stats, 
    5 days running
    17.04 miles (7 miles more than last week)
    67% av hr (129) 4 days running.
    3 hours 6 mins.

    Time to start upping the mileage next week, joining up for some club runs.
    I've just booked a Half Marathon for July the 1st in Clontarf, Dublin on the flattest course in Ireland. 

    Does anyone have stats to share?
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Ah well, good effort Martin.
    Shades, if you want to find out which ultra I've entered, you will for now need to look under my hat.  Not public knowledge yet!
    Martyn - well done

    Worcester marathon for me yesterday 4:53:46, average 87%MHR, undulating course, 19/20 degrees

    NorthEnder - ooh it must be a tough one then, so we'll find out after your midnight marathon?
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Stats for you Martyn...
    20 miler on Sunday... did a good job of keeping HR down. The last 6 miles are reliably flat, so pretty continuous..  but they were far from constant pace for my given HR.  Figures are for miles 15 to 20... with avg hr / avg pace  116/11.27  120/11.19  122/11.27  123/12.46  122/11.59  122/12.19.  What, physiologically, caused such a slowing?  I'd eaten a banana and some walnuts on the way round... and drunk a half litre of water.  Maybe I just burned out my slow twitch fibres?
  • Another weekend, another Marathon for Shades! :) #Dedication
    Good work Northender, it was pretty warm, so despite the half a litre of water, maybe the slow down was down to dehydration?
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    I think you're right.
    That just looks like a combination of cardiac drift/tiredness and as Martyn says dehydration.   But a good long run, as you kept your HR down I guess you've not had much/any tiredness afterwards?
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    At the time, I didn't feel particularly fresh. I was thinking of Hadd's story where he went for a slow run and found it difficult because he'd done no slow-pace training.  But I was fine to do the gardening and could have run yesterday - but I took it as a deliberate rest day.  Hoping to get out late tonight.  Depends how my daughter feels about her gcse tomorrow!
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    My stats for today, probably the hottest day of the year so far with temps in their mid 20's and a couple of nasty hills and climbs, you can see the biggest hill across 5 and the heat really kicked in then and couldn't get the HR down even on the slopes.  Interesting stat for me was I recorded a MHR of 191 on the hill which whilst a little scarey also means by previously estimated MHR of 190 is probably wrong.  I wasn't all out at that point so does this mean my realistic MHR is probably nearer 200?  Despite the heat I felt okay and could probably have kept going at the end.

    Mile 1 12:02 / 135
    Mile 2 12:34 / 143
    Mile 3 12:15 / 146
    Mile 4 12:47 / 146
    Mile 5 13:48 / 151
    Mile 6 12:20 / 158
    Mile 7 11:49 / 159
    Mile 8 13:22 / 157
    Mile 9 12:46 / 159
    Iprice - have you sorted out a short race or parkrun to get a MHR figure for you.?
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Looking at one for next month aye
    That's good as the fitter you get the harder you have to work to get near your MHR and the tougher it will feel.
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    Cheers, do you think I'm there or thereabouts with my estimation of my MHR?
    It's impossible to say without a test/race of some sort, you can't estimate an MHR
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Hi, all. 

    I did a Hadd test last night, with pleasing results! 

    First off, I'll start by briefly describing my training since my previous test 10 weeks ago on March 13. That too, was in the week prior to a half marathon race at Wilmslow. 

    In the last 10 weeks I built up mileage from 50 mpw to average 57 mpw, with a high of 62. Last week and this, I brought it back down to 50 for a bit of recovery leading up to the Manchester half marathon on Sunday. Long runs ranged from 13-18 miles (between 1hr 45 and 2hr 30). All weeks included a SubLT run at 82.5% (159bpm), starting 3x20 minutes for 3 weeks, 2x30 minutes for two weeks; 40+20, 45+15 and finally, last week 1 hour continuous. Average pace 7:06/m. The last 4 weeks saw a second weekly SubLT at 85% (164bpm). Introducing it at 3x1k, 2 miles (relay 'race'), 3x10 minutes and 5k continuous last week. Average pace 6:48.

    Stats including prior two tests. 130=68%; 180=93%.
    Nov 29 '16 - Mar 13 '17 - May 24 '17
    130 - 8:55 - 8:41 - 8:10
    140 - 8:37 - 8:10 - 7:46
    150 - 7:53 - 7:39 - 7:17
    160 - 7:21 - 7:22 - 7:00
    170 - 6:59 - 6:47 - 6:27
    180 - 6:39 - 6:30 - (6:25)

    Once again, I couldn't quite reach the 180 intensity - the average HR was 173, with a max of 176! All the others, however, were spot on. 

    I think that a good combination of increased mileage, consistent long runs and well executed, progressively improving SubLTs have contributed to a big improvement in fitness and speed. 
  • Massive improvement Sol2, especially with the warmer weather! This all bodes very well for raceday. 
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    looks really good sol2. Well done on getting in all those miles.

    I'm less happy at the moment.  HR has been high for the last few runs.  Did a ten miler yesterday aiming 139 max as a sub LTHR run.  I messed around a bit at times with a few short walking stretches (ultra training) but kept nicely around 136-139 for much of it, and the last couple of miles were done  9.30 pace nice and flat. Warm but good conditions.
    But a ten mile similar run 10 days ago achieved 8.45 pace from around a 134HR.  And in my Hadd test a few weeks ago, my 138 HR section achieve faster than that. Been a bit like that for the last few runs. No good explanation.
    Sol2 - fabulous results for your Hadd test.   I guess you're now going for a PB on Sunday at Manchester?

    NorthEnder - it could indeed be the heat, and/or humidity we all react differently to weather conditions.
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2017
    Thank you for the kind encouragements. Yes, the plan, of course, was to gun for a PB. Another PB, because the previous half marathon in March was, at the time, a personal best of 1:33:57; the first half since beginning the Hadd journey. Even better than a PB this time, would be to duck under 1:30. Something I, tentatively believed, based on the training, to be possible, but certainly not easily. 

    I came into into Manchester city centre this morning feeling surprisingly well rested and minus the mild leg-muscle aches which I've become accustomed to; an accepted side-effect of higher mileage and higher intensity training. Since the Hadd test on Wednesday I had two recovery days, followed by Saturday off. This gave my lags all they needed to recover from and absorb the training. 

    Manchester, still only just recovering itself from the tragic events of last week, did  not appear to be completely well organised. Perhaps it can be attributed to the Great Run series first Half here. Either way, it took a while getting into Town, as the tram system is still not yet up and running again - I took a bus, which favoured a lengthy roundabout route to the city centre. But then, searching for the bag drop, I was being told conflicting opinions as to where it might be located. That search accounted for half my warm up, jogging around looking here and there. No harm done. However, because I wanted to be relatively close to the start line, I wanted to get there early, before it gets too crowded, which it usually does. As a result, the warm up ended up only being 1.5 miles, far less than I would have liked. 

    A disadvantage of arriving too early at the starting pen, is having to stand around for too long doing nothing, potentially losing the effects of the warm up. Too bad. Waiting there, I met three of the faster runners of my club, interestingly also hoping for 1:30 clockings. I also found the duracell 1:30 pacer and introduced myself to him, so that he'd be more likely to look out for me along the course and potentially provide encouragement in case of me not being able to maintain the pace. After the mass warm up - really just a series of dynamic stretching - we observed a minutes' silence. A short while later, we heard the gun! Off we went. 

    Even though, we started relatively close to the start, the opening mile was quite congested. I was about to remark to one of the clubmates that this is usually a slow mile, when I glanced down at my watch and saw that it was actually quite fast. I thought it was slow, because the pace felt so comfortable! 

    The miles ticked away at a nice rate, surprisingly surprising me every time to see mile splits I am not accustomed to seeing! The faster clubmates were yo-yoing back and forth, one mile being ahead and the next, falling back. I was sticking to the pacer as best as I could, which was not as difficult as I anticipated. 

    The pacer did a fair job, had he been tasked with running 1:29 pace, but, at least for me, it didn't matter. I'm sure there were others who weren't able to keep to that slightly too fast pace. 

    At mile 10, still feeling good, I said my thanks to the pacer and told him that I'll be moving on. Which I did. Perhaps too quickly, I rapidly enlarged the gap between myself and the large group of people people running with the pacer. This wasn't easy, as I came to discover, as the road ahead of the group was much quieter, meaning no competitors to shelter behind and, equally, less competitors to compete against and strive to pick off. Mentally, too, it is more difficult to maintain pace when in relative isolation, compared to the mental comfort of running behind the pacer. I lost in the distance behind the 'fast' clubmates. 

    Be that as it may, the final 3 miles were indeed faster progressively. I did overtake several other people, which felt good. Upon reaching the '800m to go' banner, I speeded up further, piling on all I had left. But not enough to outsprint two people who, with 200m to go, put on a spurt if their own, which try as I might, was unable to match. 

    Somehow, in a blur, I managed to glimpse the timer on the finish line, which read 1:28:13! I was elated! This was something I did not expect at all. I waited for the pacer and the clubmates to arrive to thank and congratulate them. 

    Checking afterwards, I'll share the splits with the HR. 

    1 - 6:32 - 154
    2 - 6:53 - 164
    3 - 6:47 - 164
    4 - 6:46 - 166
    5 - 6:57 - 163
    6 - 6:33 - 164
    7 - 6:41 - 161
    8 - 6:47 - 160
    9 - 6:50 - 158
    10 - 6:47 - 159
    11 - 6:35 - 163
    12 - 6:42 - 164
    13 - 6:28 - 167
    .1 - 6:29 - 171
    13.1 - 6:47 - 162 = 84% HRmax. 

    5k1 - 21:01
    5k2 - 21:07
    5k3 - 20:53
    5k4 - 20:46

    All in all, a decent day at the office... 

    Hadd rocks! 
  • Great running, what's next? 
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Blooming heck, sol.  Amazing effort!  You must be over the proverbial moon. Well done.

    I'm still batting on.  Did another 2hr 45min run today, all at under 70%, including quite a bit of uphill walking and downhill running, in line with my upcoming races.  I'm feeling rather less confident at the moment.  I'm doing ok but now 6-weeks in, I've been very disciplined, but showing feel like I'm going backwards in terms of pace for my two main HRs  (123x and 138x).    I'm trusting that it will come together.
    Sol - wow what a PB and your splits are amazing. And at an average of 84% MHR. :) Just shows that Hadd is certainly the right training method for you.

    NorthEnder - have faith

    Dorchester marathon for me yesterday, lovely race, undulating all the way with the toughest climb at 24 miles.   Had a tough race due to 95% humidity and then getting a painful stitch at 21 miles and again a couple of miles later.   Finished in 4:56:16,  MHR 86%, so a couple of minutes slower than last week but I lost a lot of time trying to get rid of the stitch.
  • Sol2Sol2 ✭✭✭
    Thank you very much. I can hardly believe I did that! I'm really fortunate to have some smidgen of ability - I'm sure that many runners were putting in way more effort than I, yet on the other side of the road (when I was at mile 11 and they at mile 7). 

    What's next? No major races coming up. This one was the big A race of the year. I might jump into a couple of 10k's over the summer and another half in November.

    In the meantime, I need to complete Hadd's Phase 1. That means running SubLTs for 10 miles continuous at 85% HRmax. Currently, I'm almost at the end of 82.5%, but on the second session of the last several weeks started on some 85%. But I can see this 85% work taking a long time - perhaps a few months. It's all well worth it! 

    Northender, remember that in the heat HR reacts differently, even from day to day. Your watch might be telling you what the pace is, but to your muscles, heart and lungs it can be very different. It sometimes helps to have some religious discipline while following Hadd. It can seem counter-intuitive, but you must have the faith (and lotsa patience) to believe that it will work and come together in the end (whenever that is!). 

    Shades, well done on the Dorchester! I think that humidity is worse than heat. Really sweaty! What do you think causes those awful stitches? 
  • NorthEnderNorthEnder ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the encouragement. I'll keep going for at least a couple more months as I'm ultra training, so it matches very well. Well done again shades... and sol2...Sounds like you're ready to attack PBs at those shorter distances too.
    Sol - I admire your dedication in following through the various levels of Hadd's training.   I know I get distracted by racing and undo a lot of the training I've put in so never get that far.   However, I have left July free of races to get another block of training in.

    I've occasionally had the stitch thing late in a race and I think it's caused by a long stretch of downhill irritating my diaphragm, on Sunday once I got rid of it the first time I then had a longish stretch of gentle downhill again and the stitch came back. 
  • Iprice1974Iprice1974 ✭✭✭
    I'm struggling for time to train this week but my nine year old is desperate to go out on bike so she rode and I ran (jogged), stats are below, got told off from a farmer for trespassing just after the start of mile three and he made us turn around and go back the way we came which meant about half a mile pushing my daughter across a sloping field (shame because my HR was still around the late thirties / early forties) and a little more of that in mile four, mile five involved a minute or two walking her through a nettled walk way! :smile:

    Mile 1:  134 / 11:41
    Mile 2:  137 / 13:06
    Mile 3:  148 / 13:00
    Mile 4:  148 / 12:46
    Mile 5:  130 / 13:32

    Daughter is really into biking at the minute, just wondering how cross training fits into HADDing?
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